Why does the Empire not use LAAT/i or similar vehicles?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-07-21 06:37pm

Why would a few seconds of X-wing extremely low-kiloton fire destroy an AT-AT?

I guess we can put an upper limit on the Hoth firepower on the lack of mushroom clouds, so maybe you've got a point.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-21 07:33pm

Stark wrote:Why would a few seconds of X-wing extremely low-kiloton fire destroy an AT-AT?

I guess we can put an upper limit on the Hoth firepower on the lack of mushroom clouds, so maybe you've got a point.

Because such heavy firepower will automaticaly kill something so very large. That Snowspeeder fire can kill an AT-AT at all means just a handful of X-Wing shots will blow apart an AT-AT.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-21 08:03pm

Kind of makes you wonder about the Rebels at Hoth. They had loads of X-Wings and A-Wings in that hanger and there were only five AT-ATs. You'd think they could just send X-Wings to whip the AT-ATs before they got to the shield generator and then finish loading up their equipment while Darth Vader gives various officers really pointed look in orbit. I mean, X-Wings have shields, are bound to be faster, better weapons, and don't have that problem with really cold temperatures that ESB and the original ICS say that the speeders had that the Rebels barely fixed in time.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-07-22 01:22am

You discount possibly insurmountable cold temperature problems with the X-Wings, the more irreplacable they were, and the fact that Krennel's AT-ATs might not be to the armor specifications of the Empire at its height, especially a force like Blizzard Squadron. Additionally, the Rebel defenses were not necessarily expecting walkers which perhaps means that walkers as a rapid-deployment Marine assault force was a relatively new phenomenon. Perhaps standard Imperial procedure called for a mechanized infantry and standard but light armor, and the T-47s were optomized for such a mission, rather than attacking Imperial specialized armor. Additionally, Blizzard Force did have AT-AA support, and the T-47s may've handled better in low atmospheric altitudes, and against dedicated AAA, it may've been more important for Rebel aircraft to try to not get hit at all than even attempt to take hits and survive. Additionally, the T-65s of the Rebel Alliance during Hoth are not necessarily was well performing for such a wide-variety of missions with sophisticated and plentiful equipment and arms as the X-Wings of the New Republic.

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2004-07-22 02:09am

The X-Wings at Echo Base were busy protecting the Rebel Transports from the Imperial blockade during the engagement with the AT-ATs. They had trouble protecting 2 transports at a time. They obviously didn't have the numbers needed to protect the transports (carrying vital equipment and personnel) and fight the battle (which was basically a fight to stall the Imps).

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-07-22 02:37am

I beleive the Setinal-class landing ship had the guns of the Lamba-Class shuttle. There is the probability that the Empire just used Tie and Tie Bombers to fill the LAAT role.

The Imperials would have to have put the LAAT's into the sentinal landing craft in order to get them into the battle. They were no longer using the Ships designed to insert the vehicles as general deployment anymore.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-07-22 06:59am

They were no longer using the Ships designed to insert the vehicles as general deployment anymore.

When you say 'general deployment' do you mean the usual form of deployment or deployment PERIOD? Because Acclamators are still around come the OT-era. I posted a pic of an Imperial parade w/Acclamators myself on the SW vs. ST-board.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-07-22 11:09am

VT-16 wrote:
They were no longer using the Ships designed to insert the vehicles as general deployment anymore.
When you say 'general deployment' do you mean the usual form of deployment or deployment PERIOD? Because Acclamators are still around come the OT-era. I posted a pic of an Imperial parade w/Acclamators myself on the SW vs. ST-board.

The usual Deployment. The death squadron did not have them and it seems the Empire wasn't using them in general opperations anymore. Acclamators are quite impressive during a parade

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-22 03:00pm

President Sharky wrote:The X-Wings at Echo Base were busy protecting the Rebel Transports from the Imperial blockade during the engagement with the AT-ATs. They had trouble protecting 2 transports at a time. They obviously didn't have the numbers needed to protect the transports (carrying vital equipment and personnel) and fight the battle (which was basically a fight to stall the Imps).

The X-Wings don't need to protect the transports if they are under the shield generators protection. They can cover them after the X-Wings wipe out the AT-ATs.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You discount possibly insurmountable cold temperature problems with the X-Wings, the more irreplacable they were, and the fact that Krennel's AT-ATs might not be to the armor specifications of the Empire at its height, especially a force like Blizzard Squadron. Additionally, the Rebel defenses were not necessarily expecting walkers which perhaps means that walkers as a rapid-deployment Marine assault force was a relatively new phenomenon. Perhaps standard Imperial procedure called for a mechanized infantry and standard but light armor, and the T-47s were optomized for such a mission, rather than attacking Imperial specialized armor. Additionally, Blizzard Force did have AT-AA support, and the T-47s may've handled better in low atmospheric altitudes, and against dedicated AAA, it may've been more important for Rebel aircraft to try to not get hit at all than even attempt to take hits and survive. Additionally, the T-65s of the Rebel Alliance during Hoth are not necessarily was well performing for such a wide-variety of missions with sophisticated and plentiful equipment and arms as the X-Wings of the New Republic.

-I don't see how X-Wings would have the same problems with cold that the speeders did. I mean, they are starships after all, they are bound to have been designed with extreme temperatures.

-They may be more irreplacable, but they are also far more effective fighters. Aside for creative use of a tow cable and the appearant fact that AT-ATs armor is less effective after they hit the ground, none of the Rebel Snowspeeders had could stop those AT-ATs. The Snowspeeders were clearly out of their league there. Meanwhiles, X-Wings have the firepower needed to take down AT-ATs and the shields to help keep them intact.

-Even if they weren't expected walkers, they identified them on their scopes before they launched. Is it much harder to have your pilots run to their X-Wings, which already were prepped for launching anyway than it is to run to the Snowspeeders that they know were having troubles dealing with Hoth's righteous bad weather?

-I don't see how X-Wings would have problems with low altitude flight (we've never heard of them having trouble with it before and they do it occasionally in various EU books) and it's not like they could be any worse than the Snowspeeders. The speeders were easy enough to track that the AT-ATs could hit them with their main "tusk" guns, which considering that those need to be aimed by moving the AT-ATs entire head, it's not like the AT-ATs main guns are fast tracking weapons.

Furthermore, against AA fire, the X-Wings should do better due to the fact that they've got shields designed to survive kT hits from TIE Fighters. Even if they are somehow more targetable by anti-aircraft fire, they'd still have the advantage of their shields, which would make them immune to most of the Empires weapons at Hoth except for the AT-ATs cannons at full power.

-Even if they not as effective as the X-Wings of the New Republic, they are bound to be more effective than the Snowspeeders, if only for their superior firepower and defenses.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-22 03:06pm

Gil Hamilton wrote: -I don't see how X-Wings would have the same problems with cold that the speeders did. I mean, they are starships after all, they are bound to have been designed with extreme temperatures.

Being in a cold atmosphere will suck out heat vastly faster than black body radiation in space.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-22 03:24pm

Howedar wrote:Being in a cold atmosphere will suck out heat vastly faster than black body radiation in space.

I believe that was the problem that the Snowspeeders had. Their cooling system was too efficient in Hoth's Bogus Blizzard.

You'd expect, however, that a dedicated starship would handle this better for two reasons.

One is that part of the weird environment of space requires times when you have to control how much heat you vent very precisely, even purposely retaining heat. This would help the X-Wing cope much better, since it could go for holding on to it's heat.

Secondly, if it's heat sinks are designed around cooling it space by blackbody radiation, it would likely be less effective in atmosphere where you want to sink heat by convection and conduction. That would actually be an advantage on Hoth, since the problem with the snowspeeders (according to the first ICS) was that their heat sinks worked to well and froze up the engine.

At any rate, Hoth's atmosphere didn't stop the X-Wings all that much, since they were able to fly well enough to enter and exit Hoth's atmosphere without any problems.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-22 03:35pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:One is that part of the weird environment of space requires times when you have to control how much heat you vent very precisely, even purposely retaining heat. This would help the X-Wing cope much better, since it could go for holding on to it's heat.

Yes, retaining heat against the feeble losses of blackbody radiation. Not against a thick cold atmosphere.

Secondly, if it's heat sinks are designed around cooling it space by blackbody radiation, it would likely be less effective in atmosphere where you want to sink heat by convection and conduction. That would actually be an advantage on Hoth, since the problem with the snowspeeders (according to the first ICS) was that their heat sinks worked to well and froze up the engine.

Please justify this assertion. Since the X-wing will require much larger radiators to dump heat (since blackbody radiation is nowhere near as "powerful" an effect than convection or conduction), plus the X-wing will have more heat to dump since it's vastly more powerful.

At any rate, Hoth's atmosphere didn't stop the X-Wings all that much, since they were able to fly well enough to enter and exit Hoth's atmosphere without any problems.

Which was what, thirty seconds?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-22 04:18pm

Hardy wrote:Okay. I'll try this again. The mass of an Abrams is about 60 000 kilograms. The speed that an artillery shell leaves the barrel could be anywhere from 500 m/s to 1 500 m/s. For now, I'll assume that it'our shell is travelling at 1 000 m/s when it hits the side of the AT-AT. So our shell will be hitting with a force of 60 000 000 N. It's a remarkable figure.

Even more remarkable since it is impossible to derive force from velocity and mass alone. What you have calculated is momentum, not force.

Against an AT-AT, we would need an overwhelming number of LAAT/i ships to knock it over.

Knocking it over by sheer force is impractical. The best way to attack it would be to get behind it and pummel its relatively unprotected side and rear quarters with heavy ordnance. It would not be easy by any means since they had AT-ST escorts and they approached in a staggered formation so trailing AT-ATs would be able to pick off fighters that spent too much time in proximity to a leading AT-AT, but it certainly wasn't easy with the snowspeeders either.

But this is irrelevant to the main question: why weren't they used? The Rebels simply didn't have them; they probably couldn't afford good CAS vehicles when they had to make do with extreme low-end towed artillery pieces and most of their financial resources probably went into their spacecraft. As for the Imps, they didn't use repulsorlift vehicles of any kind in the Battle of Hoth, which was the only real large-scale ground battle in the original trilogy.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » 2004-07-22 08:17pm

Darth Wong wrote: Even more remarkable since it is impossible to derive force from velocity and mass alone. What you have calculated is momentum, not force.

Ah crap. I knew there was something wrong...
Well, I just learned these equations six months ago, so that type of mistake comes to no surprise to me. (I'm 14)
I was using f=ma, I believe my mistake was calculating the velocity of the shell rather than than it's acceleration rate. I've made that mistake before. My fault, entirely.

Knocking it over by sheer force is impractical. The best way to attack it would be to get behind it and pummel its relatively unprotected side and rear quarters with heavy ordnance. It would not be easy by any means since they had AT-ST escorts and they approached in a staggered formation so trailing AT-ATs would be able to pick off fighters that spent too much time in proximity to a leading AT-AT, but it certainly wasn't easy with the snowspeeders either.

To counter the AT-AT defense, you would perhaps have to approach the formation from the rear, first taking out the AT-STs then sytematically try to bombard the AT-ATs with fire. Unless the fighters are moving perpendicular to the formation, their forward motion will likely put them in the line-of-sight of an AT-AT gun. So moving slightly perpendicular to the formation may be safe for fighters.

But this is irrelevant to the main question: why weren't they used? The Rebels simply didn't have them; they probably couldn't afford good CAS vehicles when they had to make do with extreme low-end towed artillery pieces and most of their financial resources probably went into their spacecraft. As for the Imps, they didn't use repulsorlift vehicles of any kind in the Battle of Hoth, which was the only real large-scale ground battle in the original trilogy.

Well, the use of repulsorlift vehicles may have been prohibitive due to the shield protecting the base. If the Empire was able to use these vehicles, they likely would have been able to transport troops to needed locations on the battlefield (most importantly, the base). However, I doubt they would have the firepower to destroy the shield generator. The AT-ATs had both the sufficient firepower and the troop capacity to lead the assualt on Echo Base, therefore they were selected.
And once the shield generator was down, it was there was no need for the short range transport needed by the LAAT/i. The ships that
landed had to be spaceborne.
I have no disagreement with your answer to why the Rebels didn't use them or similar vehicles.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-07-22 10:55pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:The X-Wings don't need to protect the transports if they are under the shield generators protection. They can cover them after the X-Wings wipe out the AT-ATs.

Yes, Echo Base's X-Wing complement will outsurvive the HIMS Executor and five ISDs worth of assault armor.

Give them more time to solidify their blockade and call in for additional forces? What a brilliant idea.

Gil Hamilton wrote:-I don't see how X-Wings would have the same problems with cold that the speeders did. I mean, they are starships after all, they are bound to have been designed with extreme temperatures.

Interaction with a cold medium is different than interaction with a vacuum by far.

Gil Hamilton wrote:-They may be more irreplacable, but they are also far more effective fighters. Aside for creative use of a tow cable and the appearant fact that AT-ATs armor is less effective after they hit the ground, none of the Rebel Snowspeeders had could stop those AT-ATs. The Snowspeeders were clearly out of their league there. Meanwhiles, X-Wings have the firepower needed to take down AT-ATs and the shields to help keep them intact.

Waving off the AT-AAs and again forgetting its a fight for time, and that the Imps have a lot more assault armor than the Rebels have fighters to duke it out.

Gil Hamilton wrote:-Even if they weren't expected walkers, they identified them on their scopes before they launched. Is it much harder to have your pilots run to their X-Wings, which already were prepped for launching anyway than it is to run to the Snowspeeders that they know were having troubles dealing with Hoth's righteous bad weather?

Wrong, the Snowspeeders had obviously been handled by the time they sent search parties for Luke and Han. And if X-Wings were so versatile and able to tackle the same climate (which you've offered no credible argument for and no evidence), why buy the T-47s at all or send them after Luke and Han, spend money shipping them around in heavier transport due to a lack of spaceflight capability, much less hyperdrive capability?

Gil Hamilton wrote:-I don't see how X-Wings would have problems with low altitude flight (we've never heard of them having trouble with it before and they do it occasionally in various EU books) and it's not like they could be any worse than the Snowspeeders.

Because the T-47 is a better aerodynamic surface than the X-Wing (it should be, its a dedicated atmospheric combatant, versus the space superiority X-Wing). Just look at them. Especially those ugly surfaces in front of the ion engines.

Gil Hamilton wrote:The speeders were easy enough to track that the AT-ATs could hit them with their main "tusk" guns, which considering that those need to be aimed by moving the AT-ATs entire head, it's not like the AT-ATs main guns are fast tracking weapons.

This means nothing because you have no comparitive standard for the targeting abilities of Blizzard Force's AT-ATs against X-Wings, so its not a strike against the Snowspeeders.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Furthermore, against AA fire, the X-Wings should do better due to the fact that they've got shields designed to survive kT hits from TIE Fighters. Even if they are somehow more targetable by anti-aircraft fire, they'd still have the advantage of their shields, which would make them immune to most of the Empires weapons at Hoth except for the AT-ATs cannons at full power.

Except the X-Wing might not do well against dedicated AAA in an atmosphere when its extraordinary velocity and accelerations cannot be normally exploited and the Snowspeeder is a superior airframe. With powerful enough AAA, its more important to not get hit than to be able to shrug hits much lighter than what you're being shot at with (if not for the AT-AA's "flak pod," this certainly does apply to the AT-AT's main guns, which have been observed competently in the AAA role and have been calced at max in the hundreds of kilotons).

Gil Hamilton wrote:-Even if they not as effective as the X-Wings of the New Republic, they are bound to be more effective than the Snowspeeders, if only for their superior firepower and defenses.

You totally fail to grasp the tactical situation at Hoth and simply brush off all the ambiguities and possibilities I proposed. Nice try.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-23 03:09pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Yes, Echo Base's X-Wing complement will outsurvive the HIMS Executor and five ISDs worth of assault armor.

Give them more time to solidify their blockade and call in for additional forces? What a brilliant idea.

They'd still have to move, but the shield surviving the AT-AT attack will give the Rebels far more protection during that escape since they can continue dropping the shields for a second to let out the transports and X-Wings while the Ion Cannon cleared the ISDs in their path, which was working until the AT-ATs made things go wahooni-shaped and they lost the shield. You criticize this as stupid, but this is exactly what the Rebels were going to do, had they not lost the shield due to the inability of the Snowspeeders to slow the AT-ATs.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Interaction with a cold medium is different than interaction with a vacuum by far.

First of all, a starship has to be designed to handle extremes in temperature, much more so than an atmosphere craft.

Secondly, the X-Wings will likely not have the same problem simply due to the fact that their heat sinks are appearantly retractable (if you can find their heat sinks in the ICS or in the movies, let me know). The Snowspeeders have those giant radiator grills sticking out their backs, which greatly exposes them to Hoth's environment (which was their problem). It's kind of hard for Hoth to suck the heat out of the X-Wings if they're heat sinks are inside the body of the craft, isn't it?

Gil Hamilton wrote:Waving off the AT-AAs and again forgetting its a fight for time, and that the Imps have a lot more assault armor than the Rebels have fighters to duke it out.

What the hell are AT-AAs and where were they at Hoth. The only ground vehicles we saw the Empire have their were AT-ATs and AT-STs. Provide screenshots of these AT-AAs please.

Secondly, they'd still have to rush, like I said, but preservation of the shield generator meant that they could continue with the original plan that they explained at the beginning of the battle. Unless you are saying that the Rebels themselves were stupid for their original plan, then you can't criticize me.

Thirdly, the Imperials did not by any means have as many pieces of assault armor at Hoth than the Rebels had fighters. There were, what, 5 AT-ATs and a handful of escort AT-STs at Hoth? The Rebels had more X-Wings and A-Wings than that in that hangar.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Wrong, the Snowspeeders had obviously been handled by the time they sent search parties for Luke and Han. And if X-Wings were so versatile and able to tackle the same climate (which you've offered no credible argument for and no evidence), why buy the T-47s at all or send them after Luke and Han, spend money shipping them around in heavier transport due to a lack of spaceflight capability, much less hyperdrive capability?

Irrelevant to speculate, but probably because they were good against really light armor, like you originally said in this thread.

However, the X-Wings could handle the climate better, simply because they don't have those huge heat sinks sticking out their backs that allowed Hoth to suck the heat from the engines of the Snowspeeders.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Because the T-47 is a better aerodynamic surface than the X-Wing (it should be, its a dedicated atmospheric combatant, versus the space superiority X-Wing). Just look at them. Especially those ugly surfaces in front of the ion engines.

X-Wings can fly out of the atmosphere in a handful of seconds. They'd have to be really fucking aerodynamic to do that.

Gil Hamilton wrote:This means nothing because you have no comparitive standard for the targeting abilities of Blizzard Force's AT-ATs against X-Wings, so its not a strike against the Snowspeeders.

Sure it is. Those tusk cannons require the AT-AT to turn their entire freaking head to aim. The fact that the AT-ATs were moving slow enough to be tracked and hit by them doesn't speak well for them.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Except the X-Wing might not do well against dedicated AAA in an atmosphere when its extraordinary velocity and accelerations cannot be normally exploited and the Snowspeeder is a superior airframe. With powerful enough AAA, its more important to not get hit than to be able to shrug hits much lighter than what you're being shot at with (if not for the AT-AA's "flak pod," this certainly does apply to the AT-AT's main guns, which have been observed competently in the AAA role and have been calced at max in the hundreds of kilotons).

First of all, the X-Wings can achieve rapid speeds in atmospheres, since they are able to achieve escape velocity without trouble in seconds. That means they can accelerate like crazy in atmospheres.

Secondly, you have still not provide evidence for the existence of AT-AAs at Hoth. Provide screenshots of them, or concede that they weren't there. Remember, Empire Strikes Back is the ultimate source of canon for the Hoth battle. That means if they weren't in the battle as shown in Empire Strikes Back, then any source saying that they are is in contradiction with ESB. That makes that source non-canon, going by LucasFilms canon policy.

Thirdly, you said yourself that you couldn't resolve kiloton level firepower in those battles, so why are you saying that the AT-ATs are throwing around hundreds of kilotons now?

Gil Hamilton wrote:You totally fail to grasp the tactical situation at Hoth and simply brush off all the ambiguities and possibilities I proposed. Nice try.

You're ambiguities and possibilities are a salve, IP, because you absolutely hate to admit that they occasionally use dumbfuck tactics in StarWars. Just look at the way you defend Imperial Walkers and the Battle of Endor as anything less than completely stupid.

My grasp of the tactical situation at Hoth was based on the Rebel's own original battle plan before the destruction of the shield generator made everything go tits up and the fact that X-Wings are alot more effective fighters than speeders (remember, the EU battles where the X-Wings fought the AT-ATs, the X-Wings won).

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2004-07-23 04:33pm

Perhaps the LAATs are still used as an infantry support role and rapid reaction force. Much like the Huey gunships and AirCav of the veitnam war.

JointStrikeFighter · Post by **JointStrikeFighter** » 2004-07-23 11:24pm

somebody was talking about the analougous of the LAAT's weapons

these are the weapons im happy with:

chin/tail turrets
-30mm chainguns, mainly used in an anti-infantry role though

Ball turrets
-helllfires[long range, very accurate, easily destroys armour]

Mass driver missles
-salvo of mavericks

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » 2004-07-23 11:35pm

JointStrikeFighter wrote: Mass driver missles
-salvo of mavericks

When you say "mavericks" are you talking about the AGM-65? To my knowledge helicopters don't carry these weapons. I'll just assume this is a broad analogy, since the LAAT/i has capabilities that most helicopters don't.

JointStrikeFighter · Post by **JointStrikeFighter** » 2004-07-24 01:19am

i know but its the bust analogue, maybr an MRLS round thoguh

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-07-24 01:37am

Gil Hamilton wrote:They'd still have to move, but the shield surviving the AT-AT attack will give the Rebels far more protection during that escape since they can continue dropping the shields for a second to let out the transports and X-Wings while the Ion Cannon cleared the ISDs in their path, which was working until the AT-ATs made things go wahooni-shaped and they lost the shield. You criticize this as stupid, but this is exactly what the Rebels were going to do, had they not lost the shield due to the inability of the Snowspeeders to slow the AT-ATs.

You don't get the point. First you tie up the X-Wings fighting the armor, which may or may not be more effective, which keeps at least some of the transports grounded which could be taking off. Secondly, you pin down some of your own transports while simultaneously wasting more time. There's a fine balance between "enough time to let the transports get away" (and there's at least six fucked transports if Rogue Squadron is in the air with their X-Wings) and "enough time for the Imperials to call in more forces and further entrench their blockade of Hoth 6. What if the Imperials had had time to call in Interdictors? There was no just a premium on giving the transports time, but getting the transports up fast enough, which is hampered by their escorts being elsewhere.

Gil Hamilton wrote:First of all, a starship has to be designed to handle extremes in temperature, much more so than an atmosphere craft.

Argumentum ad nauseum is not a valid point. The black body radiation that the X-Wing is designed to specifications against is miniscule as a heat loss compared to a cold, dense atmosphere. Either you don't get this, or you think plugging your ears and repeating bullshit makes it more true. Either way you're not helping your case.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Secondly, the X-Wings will likely not have the same problem simply due to the fact that their heat sinks are appearantly retractable (if you can find their heat sinks in the ICS or in the movies, let me know).

Its their wings, you idiot. And even without dedicated exposed radiators, that energy will escape due to something mysterious called the Laws of Thermodynamics. No, in fact, the T-47 is a dedicated atmospheric combatant and is much more likely to be optomized for heat efficiency in a dense atmosphere (of all types) than a dedicated space superiority starfighter designed within the tolerances of black body radiation loss.

Rather, you're the one with the "Rebels are braindead" assertion, so you prove a fucking space superiority starfighter would serve better in the atmospheric combat role than the dedicated combat aircraft, moron. It is not my burden of proof to prove that the X-Wing is not more efficient in long-term exposure to cold atmospheric conditions than the T-47. Your conclusion hinges on the assumption the X-Wing is magically better at the T-47's role.

If anything, the default assertion is mine: they used the T-47s for a reason, ie. they're dedicated combat aircraft, less valuable, and ultimately more effective than the X-Wings in the tactical situation of Hoth. In case you didn't notice in the vs. debates, the "they're fucking retarded" excuse for inane Trek behavior was precipitated when there's no other plausible excuse, and in lieu of a great tradition of Trek character stupidity.

Gil Hamilton wrote:The Snowspeeders have those giant radiator grills sticking out their backs, which greatly exposes them to Hoth's environment (which was their problem). It's kind of hard for Hoth to suck the heat out of the X-Wings if they're heat sinks are inside the body of the craft, isn't it?

You're a dipshit. The radiators aren't heat sinks; they're a means to vent excess heat into the environment. A heat sink is a substance which stores heat by absorbing it without undergoing a phase change.

The X-Wing obviously also radiates heat through some means. What those means are, I don't really care. What's your assertion, really? That because I don't know exactly where the X-Wing's radiators are, we assume by default they're less efficient than the T-47s, which is a dedicated combat aircraft designed to operate in the diverse environs of a dense atmosphere? Sorry fuckmook, but you can't prove the T-65 radiates more heat by pointing out the knowledge of the location of the radiators on the T-47. Non sequitur.

Furthermore, if the s-foils contain the radiating elements of the X-Wing, it is a more difficult problem to solve an overcooling issue than in the T-47. The precise fact that the T-47 has a bank of exposed rear radiators makes direct application of insulation simple. In fact, ICS states that this was still being wrapped up minutes before Rogue Group launched to engage the Imperial armor. Could be, even if the T-65s would've been more effective that radical internal modification or mass insulation of the entire stabilizers would be necessary to make them combat worth for extended periods in the Hoth cold?

Gil Hamilton wrote:What the hell are AT-AAs and where were they at Hoth. The only ground vehicles we saw the Empire have their were AT-ATs and AT-STs. Provide screenshots of these AT-AAs please.

Your ignorance is not my problem. Do your own homework, isn't my fault if you didn't have all the information at hand before waving around your newest agenda of "ze Rebs are teh dumbsheet."

The AT-AA is a short, squat four-legged Imperial walker with a dedicated anti-aircraft pod on its back capable of engaging in all directions. They were not visible in TESB the film, no, but they were shown as part of the combat group in Force Commander, and as such are an official part of the story of the Battle of Hoth, as there is no contradiction, and therefore the game complements the film. And before you try: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Secondly, they'd still have to rush, like I said, but preservation of the shield generator meant that they could continue with the original plan that they explained at the beginning of the battle. Unless you are saying that the Rebels themselves were stupid for their original plan, then you can't criticize me.

No, I'm calling you a moron for thinking one way in pure support of your preconcieved agenda (as I addressed earlier you're treating your dumbshit as the default assumption which is not only inappropriate but unwarrented by the evidence) and oversimplifying the situation.

I'm trying to think of all the possibilities and parameters because "thos stupeed characters" is a solution of last resort, and not optimal here anyway.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Thirdly, the Imperials did not by any means have as many pieces of assault armor at Hoth than the Rebels had fighters. There were, what, 5 AT-ATs and a handful of escort AT-STs at Hoth? The Rebels had more X-Wings and A-Wings than that in that hangar.

THERE IS A SEVENTEEN AND A HALF KILOMETER LONG SUPERCARRIER IN ORBIT. IT CARRIES THREE PREFAB BASES AND OVER FORTY THOUSAND TROOPS MINIMUM. THE ISD ESCORTS HAVE ONE HUNDRED AT-ATs, ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY AT-STs, AND NEARLY FIFTY THOUSAND STORMTROOPERS.

And you wonder why I'm accusing you of having a one track mind in support of your agenda? You're obviously not thinking an inch beyond the blindingly obvious and that-which-is-right-in-front-of-you by suggesting the Blizzard Force is somehow locked.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Irrelevant to speculate, but probably because they were good against really light armor, like you originally said in this thread.

No, asshole, it is relevant to speculate because in order for you to prove the Rebels were fucking stupid you must support the implicit claim that they were any better suited against what was being shot at them. Don't want to support that assumption? Fine, then concede.

Gil Hamilton wrote:However, the X-Wings could handle the climate better, simply because they don't have those huge heat sinks sticking out their backs that allowed Hoth to suck the heat from the engines of the Snowspeeders.

Again, using the fact you know where the radiators are as an implicit proof that the X-Wing is better insulated. NON SEQUITUR.

Gil Hamilton wrote:X-Wings can fly out of the atmosphere in a handful of seconds. They'd have to be really fucking aerodynamic to do that.

No, idiot, because straight line acceleration is different from atmospheric manouvering and the shields protect from air ablation. We can put a Soyuz capsule in orbit in less than an hour easy. Does that mean its better suited for dodging AAA than an F-16 Fighting Falcon? Did you drink before posting in this thread? NON SEQUITUR.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Sure it is. Those tusk cannons require the AT-AT to turn their entire freaking head to aim. The fact that the AT-ATs were moving slow enough to be tracked and hit by them doesn't speak well for them.

You failed geometry too? How many degrees of traverse is needed to track something, even moving at hundreds or thousands of kilometers an hour when you have c-propogating line of sight weaponry and its coming at you nearly dead on over open ground?

Gil Hamilton wrote:First of all, the X-Wings can achieve rapid speeds in atmospheres, since they are able to achieve escape velocity without trouble in seconds. That means they can accelerate like crazy in atmospheres.

And hit anything? Shit, the A-12 could accelerate like fuck in atmospheres too, wonder why its not occupying the AH-64 or A-10 roles. NON SEQUITUR.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Secondly, you have still not provide evidence for the existence of AT-AAs at Hoth. Provide screenshots of them, or concede that they weren't there. Remember, Empire Strikes Back is the ultimate source of canon for the Hoth battle. That means if they weren't in the battle as shown in Empire Strikes Back, then any source saying that they are is in contradiction with ESB. That makes that source non-canon, going by LucasFilms canon policy.

No idiot, it means they were off screen in TESB. ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE. You've been on this board debating too long to be this stupid and ignorant. You know better.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Thirdly, you said yourself that you couldn't resolve kiloton level firepower in those battles, so why are you saying that the AT-ATs are throwing around hundreds of kilotons now?

Because the shield generator's complete annhiliation is a kiloton-level event, imbecile, which means if the AT-ATs had to dial up to knock X-Wings out of the air, they could, and the X-Wings could do precisely jack and shit over it.

Gil Hamilton wrote:You're ambiguities and possibilities are a salve, IP, because you absolutely hate to admit that they occasionally use dumbfuck tactics in StarWars. Just look at the way you defend Imperial Walkers and the Battle of Endor as anything less than completely stupid.

Appeal to motive. Moreover, projection, as it is you who have the unfortunate habit of hopping on some underdog agenda, not thinking one inch more than is necessary to sustain it, and then treating us like we're dumb for looking at you like the mental case. I've already shown all the above anyway.

Gil Hamilton wrote:My grasp of the tactical situation at Hoth was based on the Rebel's own original battle plan before the destruction of the shield generator made everything go tits up and the fact that X-Wings are alot more effective fighters than speeders (remember, the EU battles where the X-Wings fought the AT-ATs, the X-Wings won).

Your grasp is based on the incorrect assumption that "Rebels are teh dumb" is the default, throwing away ambiguities and possibilities to sustain that at all costs, and having precisely NO appreciation for the heat problem which you didn't deal with beyond repeating yourself and stating the obvious.

Vohu Manah · Post by **Vohu Manah** » 2004-07-24 02:14am

Just a few things I'd like to add:

Star Wars: Databank | All Terrain Armored Transport (AT-AT walker)
Main page, which notes the AT-AT's "canon" onboard weapons and their placements.

Star Wars: Databank | Imperial Star Destroyer
EU Page, which notes the ships weapons and ground force compliments of one Stormtrooper Division, 20 AT-ATs, 30 AT-STs, and twelve landing barges (not to mention 8 Lambdas and a wing of TIEs).

Star Wars: Databank | Vader, Darth

Star Wars: Databank | Vader, Darth wrote:...

Three years after the destruction of the Death Star, Vader led an elite squadron of Star Destroyers headed by his flagship, the Super Star Destroyer Executor. He was to seek out and capture the Rebels responsible for the Death Star's demise. Eventually, Vader tracked the Rebels down to the ice-world of Hoth. There, he launched a ground attack destroying the base. His quarry, the Millennium Falcon, escaped.

...

Something tells me he had more then 5 other ISDs present at Hoth. I'm thinking 12, which raises the estimates of the firepower at his disposal.

D20 Star Wars Sourcebook: Starships of the Galaxy; page 106 wrote:...

Before their ship's destruction at the Battle of Endor, the crew of Executor included more than a quarter-million of the Empire's best and most highly trained officers and specialists. For planetary assaults, Executor was generall equipped with twenty-five AT-ATs, fifty AT-STs, an entire corps of stormtroopers, and three complete mobile garrisons ready for ground deployment. Other Super-class Star Destroyers had slightly different configurations of weapons, crew, and troops, depending on the circumstances of their construction and their intended missions.

...

Yes, I know this quote is from a RPG book, but I can't find a source which contradicts this, and the SW Databank isn't providing this info.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-07-24 12:07pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote: The AT-AA is a short, squat four-legged Imperial walker with a dedicated anti-aircraft pod on its back capable of engaging in all directions. They were not visible in TESB the film, no, but they were shown as part of the combat group in Force Commander, and as such are an official part of the story of the Battle of Hoth, as there is no contradiction, and therefore the game complements the film. And before you try: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Just a question here:
I thought the usuage of game material, only extends to storyline, and not game mechanics and components? So, while the game storyline of General Veers landing multiple groups, destroying the shield generator to be reinforced by Darth Vader main party is acceptable, the use of game mechanics to say there were "so and so" AT-AT, defences and the existence of AA walkers are not.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-07-24 01:48pm

Weren´t there flak in the Hoth battle, if so where did it come from? What cannon fired it?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-07-24 06:16pm

PainRack wrote:I thought the usuage of game material, only extends to storyline, and not game mechanics and components? So, while the game storyline of General Veers landing multiple groups, destroying the shield generator to be reinforced by Darth Vader main party is acceptable, the use of game mechanics to say there were "so and so" AT-AT, defences and the existence of AA walkers are not.

When we say game mechanics we mean you cannot measure the approximate ranges and speeds of ground vehicles by scaling directly from the game interface. The existance of the AT-AA walker is legit.