Xenomorphs vs Human Resistance

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-07-24 02:16pm

Essentially, what the title says.

I had this argument last night, I was decidedly pro-resistance sided. Is there a way at all that the xenoes could beat the human resistance? I mean, as far as I can tell ,the human resistance does not have large civilian population centres in which an Aliens-style infestation could occur, they have ICBMs for use against an alien hive, should a natural one crop up, as well as sentry guns, vehicles and a myriad of ranged weapons and competent commanders.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-07-24 02:16pm

Human resistance from terminator-verse* i forgot to add.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-07-24 02:26pm

Would that Aliens (I hate the term "Xenomorph"), have to deal with the Terminators as well or is this after the fall of Skynet?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-07-24 02:41pm

Galvatron wrote:Would that Aliens (I hate the term "Xenomorph"), have to deal with the Terminators as well or is this after the fall of Skynet?

I think it's best if skynet's just left out of it for the most part, so either just after skynet fell or if it suddenly had to go and defrag or something for a few weeks.

Thag · Post by **Thag** » 2004-07-24 03:07pm

Except, wasn't LV-426 only made up of one or two hundred people? The resistance enclaves would seem to be roughly that size, and most of their vehicles were more like junkyard scratchbuilds that I wouldn't place much hope for surviving a grappling alien.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-07-24 03:15pm

The colonists weren't battlehardened soldiers with plasma rifles though.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-07-24 05:19pm

The resistance win easily. 40 Mw plasma rifles are single shot against aliens, right up to the Queen.

KhyronTheBackstabber · Post by **KhyronTheBackstabber** » 2004-07-24 07:57pm

This is hardly gonna be an easy win for the resistance. It's not like it's a battle arena where the humans and xenos are facing off. There are a lot of ruins, this is perfect alien terrain, lots of dark places to hide. The last thing humanity needs after dealing with skynet, is an alien infestation.

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2004-07-24 08:22pm

the Aliens always cluster in their hive though. Much like ants and send out huting parties (newt in Aliens). The Resistance would just have to find a hive, watch the hive and bust 'em as they come out. Failing that, they can just blow the hives with antitank weaponry, which you would think they have with the hunter killers and all.

KhyronTheBackstabber · Post by **KhyronTheBackstabber** » 2004-07-24 09:12pm

Thing is hives aren't always that obvious. There are a lot of options available to the xenos, depending where they are. Sewer systems, subway systems, mountain caves, just to name a few. The fact that humanity is spread out is going to play to the xenos advantage. An encampment get's wiped out, how long till others find out? The xenos will also spread out, and new hives are going to pop up. IMHO, I think an infestation this soon after the war with Skynet could very well, cause the human race to go the way of the dinosaur.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-24 09:17pm

Don't be ridiculous; if they can form a perimeter defense that can stop Terminators, H/Ks, and aerial units, they can sure as fuck stop a bunch of things that crawl on the ground and have no ranged attack. Resistance forces would hole up in strongholds and then root out any alien infestations in mechanized expeditions.

For underground and tunnel work, they could use captured terminators, which are immune to impregnation and which they have repeatedly demonstrated the ability to reprogram.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-07-24 09:27pm

The Xenomorphs were obviously designed (I refuse to believe Mother Nature is that much of a bitch to make them) to act as terror weapons on large population centres where fear alone would help win in a campaign with or without modern military assistance. Seeing something like a chestburster for the first time even if a 'Nam vet would be more than a little shocking.

However, this means the Resistance has an advantage. Small, subterranean outposts with decent firepower and guards means the Xenos have a harder time to do any real damage. They may take out the odd settlement that has no machines programmed to help them, but for the most part, they'll probably stay as a background species to keep an eye on whilst humanity gets on it's feet again.

This is assuming of course that wildlife isn't as common as it is now for them to propagate to obscene numbers.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2004-07-24 10:58pm

Resistance wins. If this is the T3 version, we've got the Resistance somehow reprogramming T1000s!!! And they've got plasma weaponry and I somehow recall them having nuclear weaponry as well. And remember, if they can beat Terminators, they can roll over a bunch of giant insects with acid blood.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-07-25 12:54am

The Alien's have an advantage over Skynet in that they literally can out produce (or out breed) than either the Resistance or Skynet could.

IIRC in Alien3 it was shown that even dead animals can be used as incubators for a new Alien, and in Alien its lifecycle (to maturity) was remarkably fast. And not to mention killing them just creates another problem as their blood is corrosive (spray back), even on automated defences it would be an issue if they got close enough.

I don't know the full extent, or set up of the resistance, so I won't argue the point out of ignorance, but those are just a few points to consider.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2004-07-25 01:14am

Crown wrote:The Alien's have an advantage over Skynet in that they literally can out produce (or out breed) than either the Resistance or Skynet could.

By how much? And remember that the Resistance is heavily armed and virtually everyone old enough is a soldier. And so what if they outnumber Skynet or the Resistance? That won't do them any good when they are fried to carbonized gibs thanks to plasma weaponry.

IIRC in Alien3 it was shown that even dead animals can be used as incubators for a new Alien, and in Alien its lifecycle (to maturity) was remarkably fast. And not to mention killing them just creates another problem as their blood is corrosive (spray back), even on automated defences it would be an issue if they got close enough.

The dog wasn't dead when the face hugger hugged it. And plasma weaponry could conceivably cauterize the wounds, eliminating the acid spray back or considerably lessening it. And acid might not have that much an effect on reprogrammed terminators.

I don't know the full extent, or set up of the resistance, so I won't argue the point out of ignorance, but those are just a few points to consider.

Well, we know the Resistance are survivors of the nuclear holocaust in the USA plus guys coming from all over the world to bring the fight to Skynet and we know that the Resistance guys are heavily armed and use children as soldiers too. And they're led by a genius and are heavily armed.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-07-25 01:48am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:By how much? And remember that the Resistance is heavily armed and virtually everyone old enough is a soldier. And so what if they outnumber Skynet or the Resistance? That won't do them any good when they are fried to carbonized gibs thanks to plasma weaponry.

What do you mean by how much? They have been show to produce a new warrior drone/Alien/Xenomorph/whatever the hell you want to call it in hours. Can the resistance do the same?

I haven't seen any of the 'carbonized gibs thanks to plasma weaponry', could you provide a screen gab for me?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:The dog wasn't dead when the face hugger hugged it.

It was a cow of some sort, and it was most certainly dead when they brought it into the prison, it was therefore dead for the bulk of the gestation period, and I can't remember seeing it being face hugged. Try again.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:And plasma weaponry could conceivably cauterize the wounds, eliminating the acid spray back or considerably lessening it. And acid might not have that much an effect on reprogrammed terminators.

What difference would it make if the Terminator was running on Skynet v1.01 or v1.02 in terms of the acid's corrosive nature

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Well, we know the Resistance are survivors of the nuclear holocaust in the USA plus guys coming from all over the world to bring the fight to Skynet and we know that the Resistance guys are heavily armed and use children as soldiers too.

Children would take a min of what 8 - 10 years to be 'grown' as soldiers, so err, thanks I guess.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:And they're led by a genius and are heavily armed.

You're repeating yourself here, and what does a 'military genius' mean in the context of this debate? Does it mean that they win by default, regardless of the odds? If it is them vs the Empire led by a bog standard Imp commander do the resistance win regardless because they are led by a 'military genius'? How about them versus the Culture? The Xeelee? etc.

suzume · Post by **suzume** » 2004-07-25 02:16am

I've seen the movies, although am not totally familier beyond that, but do we know how long the egg phase is? It could be a lot longer then the live in a person phase, allowing most deveopment to occur, with the face hugger phase a quick 'steal genes' and 'terrify' phase which takes a very short time compared to the total development cycle.

Also, what is the rate that the queen can lay eggs? This would be another limit on the reproduction.

I can not remember a cow in Alien 3, I am sure it was a dog. (If the sit- in-person stage isn't realy a growth phase, as I suggest above, then being able to do it in a dead animal would make sense.)

In Aliens, I seem to remember the Marines were very successful except when they were stupid, such as failing to check for underfloor access, or guarding their flyer, or disarming themselves before sneaking into the alien hive. I think that the Human resistance would be on guard against inflitartion, and so won't have any passages where a terminator could hide in their homes, and would also decent prerimeters.

Personally, I think it would be humans against animals, clever animals, but animals nevertheless.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-25 02:33am

Crown wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:By how much? And remember that the Resistance is heavily armed and virtually everyone old enough is a soldier. And so what if they outnumber Skynet or the Resistance? That won't do them any good when they are fried to carbonized gibs thanks to plasma weaponry.
What do you mean by how much? They have been show to produce a new warrior drone/Alien/Xenomorph/whatever the hell you want to call it in hours. Can the resistance do the same?

They don't have to. One human can easily kill dozens of xenos. Hell, even in Aliens when most of their advantages were removed by a combination of freak bad luck and command incompetence, a dozen Colonial Marines still wiped out most of the alien hive. And their weapons were much less dangerous to xenomorphs than Terminator plasma weapons would be.

I haven't seen any of the 'carbonized gibs thanks to plasma weaponry', could you provide a screen gab for me?

In the original Terminator, a person was blown to shreds by H/K plasma weapons. There wasn't enough recognizable human being left to fill an ashtray. And Terminators seem to shoot for centre of mass, just like any good soldier, so any dead Resistance soldier is likely to have a nice big smoking hole through his chest, where the implanted egg is supposed to gestate.

What difference would it make if the Terminator was running on Skynet v1.01 or v1.02 in terms of the acid's corrosive nature

Who cares? The aliens won't get close enough to the terminators to spray their acid on them. The acid spray is only a threat when they get within a few feet of you; it's the most overrated offensive weapon in history.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-07-25 02:48am

It was a cow of some sort, and it was most certainly dead when they brought it into the prison, it was therefore dead for the bulk of the gestation period, and I can't remember seeing it being face hugged. Try again.

You haven't seen Aliens 3 in a long time, mate

- there's no cow in that film at all. What happens is that the dog is sitting there barking at something in the pod, then you see a face hugger moving around in there. Scene then changes. The next time you see the dog, its owner (one of the prisoners) is asking the dog (rhetorically) what the fuck did that to its face (its all messed up). During the funeral scene when Hicks and Newt are being tossed into the furnace, the live dog (which is elsewhere) explodes and the "dog-alien" comes out. That's why it acts and looks differently from previous/subsequent aliens, its host was a dog.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-07-25 03:00am

Vympel wrote:You haven't seen Aliens 3 in a long time, mate - there's no cow in that film at all. What happens is that the dog is sitting there barking at something in the pod, then you see a face hugger moving around in there. Scene then changes. The next time you see the dog, its owner (one of the prisoners) is asking the dog (rhetorically) what the fuck did that to its face (its all messed up). During the funeral scene when Hicks and Newt are being tossed into the furnace, the live dog (which is elsewhere) explodes and the "dog-alien" comes out. That's why it acts and looks differently from previous/subsequent aliens, its host was a dog.

He's talking about the special edition. In it, the alien impregnates an ox, which dies, and then it later hatches from her carcass.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-07-25 03:07am

Darth Wong wrote:They don't have to. One human can easily kill dozens of xenos. Hell, even in Aliens when most of their advantages were removed by a combination of freak bad luck and command incompetence, a dozen Colonial Marines still wiped out most of the alien hive. And their weapons were much less dangerous to xenomorphs than Terminator plasma weapons would be.

And an Alien's main advantage is stalking/jumping on its prey, which isn't in doubt. I was just suggesting that an Aliens main attribute is their ability to mass breed. Your response, and others demonstrates that I am vastly underestimating the Resistances capabilities.

In the original Terminator, a person was blown to shreds by H/K plasma weapons. There wasn't enough recognizable human being left to fill an ashtray. And Terminators seem to shoot for centre of mass, just like any good soldier, so any dead Resistance soldier is likely to have a nice big smoking hole through his chest, where the implanted egg is supposed to gestate.

Thanks.

Who cares? The aliens won't get close enough to the terminators to spray their acid on them. The acid spray is only a threat when they get within a few feet of you; it's the most overrated offensive weapon in history.

I wasn't suggesting it as an offensive weapon, per se, mearly showing that as far as I know the resistance doesn't exactly have any amour designed to be corrosive resistant, and even though the acid blood isn't a direct kill 'weapon', it does add to casualties, which an army like the resistance isn't protected agains (AFAIK). However this point is moot because of their weapons charring/cauterising nature.

The only way I could see the Aliens pulling this off is by out breeding the resistance, and lets face it, most combat is going to happen in urban ruble right? That does tend to nullify most of the ranged weapons range of the resistance, although if they suddenly have Terminators and air support, then even superior numbers aren't going to do the trick. *shrug*

As I said earlier, I am not looking to argue one way or the other here, especially since I don't even know half of what the resistance can do.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-07-25 03:07am

Vympel wrote:You haven't seen Aliens 3 in a long time, mate - there's no cow in that film at all. What happens is that the dog is sitting there barking at something in the pod, then you see a face hugger moving around in there. Scene then changes. The next time you see the dog, its owner (one of the prisoners) is asking the dog (rhetorically) what the fuck did that to its face (its all messed up). During the funeral scene when Hicks and Newt are being tossed into the furnace, the live dog (which is elsewhere) explodes and the "dog-alien" comes out. That's why it acts and looks differently from previous/subsequent aliens, its host was a dog.

I'm watching it now, its a cow.

EDIT :: What Galvatron said, and it is a dog originally

Shit, the change seems seemless to me.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-07-25 03:15am

For someone who hasn't seen the Alien 3 SE, can someone please list the differences? PM to me, as I do not wish to hijack this thread.

Or list them here, I don't care.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2004-07-25 03:34am

Crown wrote:What do you mean by how much? They have been show to produce a new warrior drone/Alien/Xenomorph/whatever the hell you want to call it in hours. Can the resistance do the same?

I haven't seen any of the 'carbonized gibs thanks to plasma weaponry', could you provide a screen gab for me?

Well, the Resistance can't make a new plasma totting trooper in a few hours, but a reprogrammed Terminator or a standard soldier can kill a dozen aliens in a few minutes without breaking sweat.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:It was a cow of some sort, and it was most certainly dead when they brought it into the prison, it was therefore dead for the bulk of the gestation period, and I can't remember seeing it being face hugged. Try again.

...that is definately not what I saw in Alien 3...

And if aliens can gestate in corpses, why didn't the alien just kill Ripley and let the alien in her gestate? Why can't the aliens just haul corpses into their hives instead of incapacitating living people?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:What difference would it make if the Terminator was running on Skynet v1.01 or v1.02 in terms of the acid's corrosive nature

Uhh...wha? v1.01..? You've lost me...

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Children would take a min of what 8 - 10 years to be 'grown' as soldiers, so err, thanks I guess.

Well, children would mean more people armed with terminator terminating weaponry (plasma, grenade launchers) who will effortessly slaughter the acid blooded monsters.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:You're repeating yourself here, and what does a 'military genius' mean in the context of this debate? Does it mean that they win by default, regardless of the odds? If it is them vs the Empire led by a bog standard Imp commander do the resistance win regardless because they are led by a 'military genius'? How about them versus the Culture? The Xeelee? etc.

Having a military genius (or a competent commander) would mean a lot in a sudden and large scale engagement against the unarmed and individually weak xenos but numerically superior. It would mean that they could quickly adapt strategies and tactics to more effectively combat the xenos and would possibly instal measures to prevent the xenos from spreading out more.

The only way I could see the Aliens pulling this off is by out breeding the resistance, and lets face it, most combat is going to happen in urban ruble right? That does tend to nullify most of the ranged weapons range of the resistance, although if they suddenly have Terminators and air support, then even superior numbers aren't going to do the trick. *shrug*

The resistance do have Terminators and air support. In T2, they went into a Skynet base, grabbed a T-800 from a rack of 800s and reprogrammed him and tossed him into the time machine to protect young John Conner. This happened rather quickly too.

I also remembered some mention of the Resistance having nukes. Can someone (cough...NECRONLORD!!!) verify this? And my memory on the air support is a bit shady...a little help please (NECRONLORD!!!)?

And aside from desolated cityscapes, a lot of the fighting will take place in areas flattened by Judgement Day's nuclear exchange. Urban combat against unarmed, pouncing monsters won't be that hard too...the desolated streets of US cities aren't that cramped and will still give the Resistance a good distance.

Anyway...the OP never stated how large and extensive the initial alien infestation would be. If we get a large ass superhive in North America, the entire continent might have to be evacuated and bombed to shit or reclaimed with some form of counterattack.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2004-07-25 04:13am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Well, the Resistance can't make a new plasma totting trooper in a few hours, but a reprogrammed Terminator or a standard soldier can kill a dozen aliens in a few minutes without breaking sweat.

No doubt. But are they able to recoup their losses as quickly as the Alien hive

That is what I am asking.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:...that is definately not what I saw in Alien 3...

It was the Special Edition Version, as Galvatron pointed out.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:And if aliens can gestate in corpses, why didn't the alien just kill Ripley and let the alien in her gestate? Why can't the aliens just haul corpses into their hives instead of incapacitating living people?

This is ridiculous. Just because they don't do this every, single, time, doesn't mean they can't do this once it has been shown they can.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Uhh...wha? v1.01..? You've lost me...

You mentioned 'reprogrammed' Terminators, and asked you what difference does it make what software the Terminators are using on the corrosive affect of the Alien's blood.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Well, children would mean more people armed with terminator terminating weaponry (plasma, grenade launchers) who will effortessly slaughter the acid blooded monsters.

This point of arguement was brought up by you, in an attempt - one assumes - to refute the 'outbreeding' point by me. So what difference does it make if they recruit children, it would still take them at least 8 - 10 years to recoup their losses and are in a poor position for a war of attrition.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Having a military genius (or a competent commander) would mean a lot in a sudden and large scale engagement against the unarmed and individually weak xenos but numerically superior. It would mean that they could quickly adapt strategies and tactics to more effectively combat the xenos and would possibly instal measures to prevent the xenos from spreading out more.

Aliens have been known to adapt and learn while in combat, so have humans, what is your point?

I'll help you out; your 'military genius' 'point' is at best a red herring, or at worst a cop out using a no-limits fallacy. I provided specific examples of the resistance vs Empire, Culture, Xeelee and asked you what fucking difference it would make if they were lead by a 'military genius' or Donald Duck. The answer is jack squat; because the odds are just too damn high.

Do you understand that using 'a military genius' claim is ridiculously poor debating

We already assume that both sides are lead by a compatent (or demonstrably equivalent indigenous leader) as default. Get it?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:The resistance do have Terminators and air support. In T2, they went into a Skynet base, grabbed a T-800 from a rack of 800s and reprogrammed him and tossed him into the time machine to protect young John Conner. This happened rather quickly too.

I never saw that in the movie. AFAIK T-800 was rebuilt and repaired from damage battle and reprogrammed. Was this mentioned somewhere that I am not aware of?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I also remembered some mention of the Resistance having nukes. Can someone (cough...NECRONLORD!!!) verify this? And my memory on the air support is a bit shady...a little help please (NECRONLORD!!!)?

Where are we getting this from

Are we going by on screen or books

Shroom Man 777 wrote:And aside from desolated cityscapes, a lot of the fighting will take place in areas flattened by Judgement Day's nuclear exchange. Urban combat against unarmed, pouncing monsters won't be that hard too...the desolated streets of US cities aren't that cramped and will still give the Resistance a good distance.

I'm sorry, I disagree in the T2 and T3 snippets the urban jungle doesn't exactly look like plain open fields to me, IIRC the battleground looked like a junk yard, not exactly ideal for either side, but hardly a killing ground for the Resistance.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Anyway...the OP never stated how large and extensive the initial alien infestation would be. If we get a large ass superhive in North America, the entire continent might have to be evacuated and bombed to shit or reclaimed with some form of counterattack.

No it doesn't and it doesn't also give me any details about the Resistance either so I really don't know their abilities.

I said I didn't want to be dragged into a debate over this (it is afterall the height of stupidity to argue over something that you only know half of), but for crying out loud why are you replying to points that have already been cleared up by others. it's not as if you missed their replies since you quote me from two different posts.