Bush military records found

[Superman]

WASHINGTON - The Pentagon (news - web sites) on Friday released newly discovered payroll records from President Bush (news - web sites)'s 1972 service in the Alabama National Guard, though the records shed no new light on the future president's activities during that summer.


A Pentagon official said the earlier contention that the records were destroyed was an "inadvertent oversight."


Like records released earlier by the White House, these computerized payroll records show no indication Bush drilled with the Alabama unit during July, August and September of 1972. Pay records covering all of 1972, released previously, also indicated no guard service for Bush during those three months.


The records do not give any new information about Bush's National Guard training during 1972, when he transferred to the Alabama National Guard unit so he could work on the U.S. Senate campaign of a family friend. The payroll records do not say definitively whether Bush attended training that summer because they are maintained separately from attendance records.


White House spokesman Trent Duffy said Bush kept his service commitments, pointing to the fact that Bush was honorably discharged in 1973.


The White House says Bush attended enough training during other months in 1972 to fulfill his service commitment for that year.


The release came three days before Democrats begin their national convention in Boston to officially nominate Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) as their presidential candidate. Military veterans are being tapped at the convention to help tell Kerry's story as he prepares to accept the party's nomination next week.


Democrats have sought to contrast Bush's National Guard service with Kerry's Vietnam War record. Kerry enlisted in the Navy, volunteered for combat in Vietnam and earned several medals including a Silver Star, a Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. After returning from Vietnam, Kerry became a prominent anti-war activist.


The Associated Press had asked a federal judge on July 16 to order the Pentagon to quickly turn over a copy of the pay records. The AP had sued under the Freedom of Information Act to obtain the records from a state library records center in Texas.


Records of Bush's National Guard service released previously did not explain the apparent gaps in his Guard service in 1972 and 1973.


Bush had transferred to an Alabama National Guard unit while he worked on the U.S. Senate campaign of Republican Winton Blount.


The Pentagon had said that the payroll records for that time period had been inadvertently destroyed.


"Previous attempts to locate the missing records at the Federal Records Center had been unsuccessful due to the incorrect records accession numbers provided," the Pentagon's Office of Freedom of Information chief C.Y. Talbott said in a letter Friday to The Associated Press.


"The correct numbers were obtained ... and the records were found."


Talbott wrote that the Defense Department "regrets this inadvertent oversight during the initial search and the delay it caused in your receipt of these materials."

What do you think?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... ry_records

[Johonebesus]

That Bush will weasel around this like he always has. He's a wartime president so it's unpatriotic to question his military service, and it is a low blow and dirty politicking to drag this out (even though it was perfectly acceptable for Republicans to openly call Clinton a draft dodger).





Also that my eyes would thank you if you dressed your links.

[Crown]

Why does this article refer to him (Bush) as 'the future president'?

[Hamel]

Because in 1972 he wasn't the prez~~ The writre worded it poorly.

[Crown]

Because in 1972 he wasn't the prez~~ The writre worded it poorly.

Yep, see it now. And you are right, that was worded rather poorly.

[Jalinth]

That Bush will weasel around this like he always has. He's a wartime president so it's unpatriotic to question his military service, and it is a low blow and dirty politicking to drag this out (even though it was perfectly acceptable for Republicans to openly call Clinton a draft dodger).

I did find this funny - both were draft dodgers, just one used connections to dodge it while still theoretically serving. Honestly, what he did back then is who cares. The denial of any wrongdoing today is more telling of current character than the actions of a youth 30 years ago.

At least the US is now coming up on a generation (Edwards) that has no Vietnam issues. He has his own issues but can't get tarred with his Vietnam record.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

This probably won't affect the outcome of the elections, as I don't think most voters care about the military records of politicians.

[Spice Runner]

The extremists on both sides will try to spin this. But most voters don't care about something that happened thirty years ago.

[Iceberg]

"My fellow Americans,

"The time has come for me to tell the truth about where I was in '72. Like many of you, I spent most of the early seventies coked out of my ever-loving mind. In '72, when the Air Force instituted systematic drug testing, I was scared shitless. Well, when I got the letter I was higher than a fucking kite, but when I came down off my high, then I was scared shitless.

"So you see, I was AWOL from the Air National Guard for a year because I was so fucked up I couldn't see straight, let alone fly a high-performance fighter jet.

"God bless America."

[consequences]

Hmm, I'm curious to know the exact requirements of satisfactory service for the National Guard back then. Missing three months of Drill is sufficient grounds for removal these days if the days aren't made up in some manner, which should be determinable from the records(ha, as if they'd ever let that sort of shit into the light of day).
Pointing to his honorable discharge proves nothing, and is a circular argument I believe. He attended training so he was honorably discharged, he was honorably discharged so he must have completed all of his training. Without some form of proof of his attendance over the missing time period, I ain't buying it. And by proof, I mean someone in his unit who didn't like him who will grudgingly admit that he fulfilled his requirement, pointing to attendance and pay records means precisely zip. Any of his higher-ups could have signed the sheet for him, claiming some form of detached duty, any of his buddies could have signed the paper without any real difficulty , and this is presuming that that unit even bothered to maintain that much accountability, and didn't just mark everyone present as a matter of course so that their paperwork looked good.

[LadyTevar]

IIRC, you can be honorably discharged even if you have committed minor felonies.

[JME2]

IIRC, you can be honorably discharged even if you have committed minor felonies.

Yep, the Bush family influence hard at work again (or back then to be precise).

[Augustus]

Hmm, I'm curious to know the exact requirements of satisfactory service for the National Guard back then.

Pretty much the same as today, NGB (National Guard Bureau) regs have not changed that much.

Missing three months of Drill is sufficient grounds for removal these days if the days aren't made up in some manner,...

Thats the COs decesion unless the soldier/airman misses an AT (Annual Training) which is on the Federal tab - after which its out of the COs hands.

...which should be determinable from the records(ha, as if they'd ever let that sort of shit into the light of day).
Pointing to his honorable discharge proves nothing, and is a circular argument I believe. He attended training so he was honorably discharged, he was honorably discharged so he must have completed all of his training. Without some form of proof of his attendance over the missing time period, I ain't buying it.

Thats too bad as the proof you are looking for proabley doesnt exist in a form that will satidfy you. Let me explain - If LT. Bush was excused from training he was granted an ATA (alternate Training Assembly). ATAs are often a very loose form of duty and can range from coming into the unit and doing paper work, to anything the CO sees as fit for replacement of the actual training assembly (or 'Drill" if you prefer). Bottom line an ATA can be anything. COs of large units often adopt a general policy of letting the line commanders, or the HSC element allows persons to perform ATAs without getting directly involved as long as they can explain what they are going to be doing and how they can be reached if nessesary. The alternate duty description is not often recorded, but the ATA is noted in the solider/airman's pay file. So likely the only proof you will ever get is that Bush performed several ATAs, which is allowable under NGB rules.

And by proof, I mean someone in his unit who didn't like him who will grudgingly admit that he fulfilled his requirement, pointing to attendance and pay records means precisely zip.

As stated above if Bush's ATA(s) were performed outside the units assembly area then noboby is going to beable to testify to what he was doing during those alternate training periods. Bottom line if he was granted an ATA in his pay records then it was approved. It might look odd but if the pay records exist in conjunction with an Honorable DD-214 then thats all there is to it.

Same way thay Kerry's 4-month tour in Vietnam looks suspicious at first galnce. I had three uncles over there, two in the Corps and one in the Navy (on a PBR) and even with purple hearts they were all deployed for at least 9 to 12-months. It could easily be argued that someone was pulling strings for Kerry to get him out early, where as the realitly proably is much different.

Any of his higher-ups could have signed the sheet for him, claiming some form of detached duty, any of his buddies could have signed the paper without any real difficulty , and this is presuming that that unit even bothered to maintain that much accountability, and didn't just mark everyone present as a matter of course so that their paperwork looked good.

Then what should be looked into is the standards and practices of the leadership of the TANG, Ellington AFB, Dannelly Air National Guard Base, the 187th Tac Air Recon Wing, and the 111th Fighter Intercepter Squadron. If one soldier/airman was getting away with it then alot of them were and it would show up in an audit from the AG's office.

[consequences]

snip

Yeah, I know, that's why want someone to at least be able to state that he at least showed up. I'm perfectly aware that military duty can be BS makework, even on active duty sometimes, I've experienced enough of that myself. However, if my CinC is on the same level as the useless scumfucks who don't even bother to show up for drill every month, I've got a slight issue with that.

[Augustus]

snip

Yeah, I know, that's why want someone to at least be able to state that he at least showed up.

Again with an ATA you may neverever get someone to say 'he was here'. My old LAARNG unit would issue ATAs for any number of community activities that the BN or HSC Co thought would be a good idea for the NG to be involved in, or to allow soldiers with jobs or in college a little 'flex'. Soldiers would often not be required to appear in uniform or even declair that they were from the NG. Sounds like the case with Bush considering he was going to work on a family friends campaign in Alabama- there proably wasnt any reason for him to state "Hey Y'all! Lt. Bush from the 111th Texas Air Guard reporting! Where do you want me?"

I'm perfectly aware that military duty can be BS makework, even on active duty sometimes, I've experienced enough of that myself. However, if my CinC is on the same level as the useless scumfucks who don't even bother to show up for drill every month, I've got a slight issue with that.

Look as a former NG soldier I have to take some amount of issue with that. Not ever single soldier can show up to drill each and ever time. Thats why things like ATAs exist - and during my college time I was grateful for them. NGB rules ALLOW people to make up drills and leaves the manner in which they perform the alternate duty entirely up to the supervising Commander. If the ATA shows up on the pay reports then the duty has been performed.

[consequences]

I'm perfectly aware that military duty can be BS makework, even on active duty sometimes, I've experienced enough of that myself. However, if my CinC is on the same level as the useless scumfucks who don't even bother to show up for drill every month, I've got a slight issue with that.

Look as a former NG soldier I have to take some amount of issue with that. Not ever single soldier can show up to drill each and ever time. Thats why things like ATAs exist - and during my college time I was grateful for them. NGB rules ALLOW people to make up drills and leaves the manner in which they perform the alternate duty entirely up to the supervising Commander. If the ATA shows up on the pay reports then the duty has been performed.

As an Army Reservist, my perspective is slightly different. Our only option is to show up at some point at the unit to make up the missed time. Since we were a verminous cesspit of worthless scumfuckery before last year's activation, and a large number of the people who didn't show up for drill were the one's I was most responsible for carrying during that year, I have severe problems with anyone who is allowed to skate out of their obligations.
The NG's business is their own, and they can require time to be made up how they want to, but Bush had better be able to prove he did what he says he did before I'll spit on him if I see him dying in the desert.

[Augustus]

The NG's business is their own, and they can require time to be made up how they want to, but Bush had better be able to prove he did what he says he did before I'll spit on him if I see him dying in the desert.

So in other words, Bush's does'nt deserve the benifit of the doubt extened to everyother member of the NG. Whatever <Shrug> Some people will believe what they want to.

[consequences]

The NG's business is their own, and they can require time to be made up how they want to, but Bush had better be able to prove he did what he says he did before I'll spit on him if I see him dying in the desert.

So in other words, Bush's does'nt deserve the benifit of the doubt extened to everyother member of the NG. Whatever <Shrug> Some people will believe what they want to.

\
Given that the National Guard of 1972 was a far different thing that the National Guard of today, and he specifically joined it so that he couldn't be drafted and shot at, yeah, pretty much.

[Augustus]

So in other words, Bush's does'nt deserve the benifit of the doubt extened to everyother member of the NG. Whatever <Shrug> Some people will believe what they want to.

Given that the National Guard of 1972 was a far different thing that the National Guard of today, and he specifically joined it so that he couldn't be drafted and shot at, yeah, pretty much.

Wow...Where to start. 1 assertion not completely supported in fact, and 1 opinion.

But like I said, whatever. Your mind is obviously closed on the subject. Even if I dropped Bush's 201 file in your lap and pointed to his pay files and went over and matched them up with his DD-214 service dates it would'nt according to you prove anything.

[Gil Hamilton]

Wow...Where to start. 1 assertion not completely supported in fact, and 1 opinion.

But like I said, whatever. Your mind is obviously closed on the subject. Even if I dropped Bush's 201 file in your lap and pointed to his pay files and went over and matched them up with his DD-214 service dates it would'nt according to you prove anything.

His squadron was called the "Champagne Squadron" by others who knew the group because it was widely known as a squad who used outdated equipment that would never get sent anywhere near Vietnam and was largely composed rich kids with influential fathers.

Those sort of Guard groups practically existed for the purpose of rich kids draft-dodging in a legal manner.

[Augustus]

His squadron was called the "Champagne Squadron" by others who knew the group because it was widely known as a squad who used outdated equipment that would never get sent anywhere near Vietnam and was largely composed rich kids with influential fathers.

And this proves what? That Bush was in a cushy unit. Newsflash - there are tons of cushy units in the military, even today. It does not prove that he did not fulfill his service obligations.

Those sort of Guard groups practically existed for the purpose of rich kids draft-dodging in a legal manner.

Those sort of guard units were an outgrowth of the type of organization the NG intrensically is. By and large the NG is a STATE organization with Federal obligations. It is commanded, organized, run and funded by the States. Most, but not all NG units (I'll have to check on the 111th in the 70's) had to activated in mass under law for deployment by the Federal Goverment, and those laws date back to well before Vietnam. In contrast the Reserves could be activated on a man-by-man basis.

During Vietnam the Reserves were always at the low water mark for readyness so it was easier to get into them. NG units by and large were not activated for Vietnam, because the Johnson and Nixon Adminstrations lacked the political will to call them up. Thus the NG units were almost always overstrenght. To call that "legal draft-dodging" is an insult to the Guard and everyone who served in it....fuck you very much.

Now if someone wants to make the argument that Bush managed to get into the 111th and that prevented a less connected airman from getting in then I would agree, provided there is some demonstrable proof.

[consequences]

But like I said, whatever. Your mind is obviously closed on the subject. Even if I dropped Bush's 201 file in your lap and pointed to his pay files and went over and matched them up with his DD-214 service dates it would'nt according to you prove anything.

Considering how easily I could get one of my NCOs to cover for my non-existence at Drill, no, it really wouldn't. Considering some of the people I know who managed to skate through a year's worth of Active Duty and get the DD 214 saying they served honorably, no, it really fucking wouldn't.

You are correct, though, my mind is made up that he is a scumfuck, and it will take signifigant changes in behavior on his part to convince me otherwise. Easily forged paperwork not qualifying as such.

[Augustus]

Considering how easily I could get one of my NCOs to cover for my non-existence at Drill, no, it really wouldn't. Considering some of the people I know who managed to skate through a year's worth of Active Duty and get the DD 214 saying they served honorably, no, it really fucking wouldn't.

Heres to hoping you never run for public office.

You are correct, though, my mind is made up that he is a scumfuck, and it will take signifigant changes in behavior on his part to convince me otherwise. Easily forged paperwork not qualifying as such.

I'm detecting a theme here...
Fine you don't like him. Big deal - everybody has an axe to grind. However, you are presuming an awful lot about the character and disposition of his service without facts. That sort of thinking on this board usually isn't rewarded. Principally you are evaluating Bush's service under a "one-sided burden" of proof argument.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationis ... ndex.shtml

[The Dark]

During Vietnam the Reserves were always at the low water mark for readyness so it was easier to get into them. NG units by and large were not activated for Vietnam, because the Johnson and Nixon Adminstrations lacked the political will to call them up. Thus the NG units were almost always overstrenght.

Bush's NG unit is exceptionally odd, even by the "cushy" standards of Vietnam ANG units. There was Bush himself, the son of Senator Lloyd Bentsen, the son of Senator John Tower, both sons of Sid Adger (the man who asked General James Rose to place Bush in the unit), and at least 7 members of the Dallas Cowboys football team.

To call that "legal draft-dodging" is an insult to the Guard and everyone who served in it....fuck you very much.

Hey, the Vietnam-era ANG was referred to as FANGers by the regular Air Force...since there was no way they'd get deployed, they were the Fucking Air National Guard.

Now if someone wants to make the argument that Bush managed to get into the 111th and that prevented a less connected airman from getting in then I would agree, provided there is some demonstrable proof.

Unfortunately, General Rose is deceased, and it was ex-legislator Jake Johnson who recalled the story of how General Rose "got that Republican congressman's son from Houston into the Guard". He was exempted from OCS (he did score a 95% on officer aptitude, but the average was 88% and he had no special skills). His piloting aptitude test was 25%, the minimum passing grade, and his navigational aptitude was 50%. The Texas Air National Guard's historian has said the only other people who got direct appointments were doctors, because their medical skills were needed.

And while I have no objection in theory to taking time off for necessary reasons, Bush took time off every election season, starting 8 weeks into his training (when he got 2 months off to work on an election in Florida). In 1970 he worked on his father's campaign, and 1972 was the infamous Alabama fiasco with the 9921st Reserve Training Squadron, which had "no airplanes...no pilots...no nothing" according to Lt. Col. Reese Bricken, the unit's CO. In fact, the transfer was denied by the higher-ups at HQ. From the time he left in May 1972 until he reappeared in May 1973, there were no records (until this latest batch, I guess). It's truly amusing because April 1972 was when mandatory drug testing was implemented. In August Bush was suspended from flight duty for missing his physical. He never flew during his last 15 months of duty, which seems odd for a pilot.

Alos, Bush's unit was overmanned before he was admitted. They had 27 pilots, two in training, and one being transferred into the unit. Given that standard practice was for a unit to have 29 pilots, they were one over what they were suppsoed to have before he ever entered the ANG.

However, the biggest condemnation to me lies in the fact that Bush was admitted the day he applied, over and above a year and a half waiting list. Rather than 540 days, his application was processed and approved in under 24 hours. Given his lack of anything exceptional other than his connections, he was pampered into the ANG, into a unit that COULD NOT serve overseas (the F-102 was forbidden from overseas duty after 1970, and was being phased out in the mid-60s), and still refused to take physicals after the addition of a mandatory drug test. As far as I'm concerned, Bush was just a spoiled brat who got into the cushiest unit in America to avoid the draft.

[consequences]

Hey, Mr. The Dark, do you have any links so that I can look into that more thoroughly? A quick Google search turns up all sorts of interesting accusations, but I am unclear as to how to determine their veracity and relative lack of axes to grind. Although the definite trend seems to be that Liberal sites go "Bush is teh Evil", and Conservative biased ones say that "Liberals are teh Whiny".