Damn You Moore

[frigidmagi]

"Bush is sarificing the children." Moore on fox in the rather idiotic O Reilly vs Moore, the battle of the extremist stone walls. I will report that they were adults and polite towards each other, O'Reilly thanked Moore for coming on at the end and Moore thanked him for having him, there were no personnal attacks or cutting of the mikes this time.

Speaking for for myself has a Marine that served in Iraq...

Fuck you, Moore.

I was not a child, my platoon mates were not children. We were legal adults and we choose to go. We choose to be servicemembers, not our parents, us. I signed myself into the Marines, not Mom and Dad, I've never I was not a sarificifal lamb, I was a Marine in United States Marine Corps and I went in with the clear knowledge that I was in danger and you know what, I would do it again, the whole 4 years, the war, all of it.

By calling us children, by suggesting we were "sarificed," he belittled us, he belittled my brothers and sisters in uniform who laid down their lives, he belittled the men and women who made the choice to wear the uniform and put themselves on the line. Moore is using us has a damn tearjerker to advance his postion. It's like the little baby pro-life billboards.

I'm not a Bush supporter, I'm not voting for him this November, however it's crap like this that pisses me off towards the left.

[Jalinth]

He is of the party and religion of Moore - very egotistical guy. The fact the Dems are latching onto him is pathetic.

Agree with your comments - adults make their own decisions and Marines are definitely not children.

[PicardShark]

Well, there are people who are dying at an awfully young age in the war, and if you want to get technical about it, those that died are still children. They still have mothers, fathers, and/or family members that care about them.

[frigidmagi]

Some of the men who died were in their 30s, were they children?

I am not questioning that they had families and loved ones, but children are not the only ones with mothers and fathers. I'm fairly sure that even my grandparents at one time had parents that loved them. The fact that they're parents loved them did not make them children, they made an adult choice and should be respected has adults, not called children by some snide politico.

Everyone who went to war was 18 or older. There are 17 year old Marines, but in accordence with UN No Child Solders Treaty they were not allowed in the Iraq threather or in any other active threather of combat.

The fact that they are young, that I was young did not make us children. Calling us that belittles us and the choices we made, it suggest that we didn't know what we were doing. Which I find greatly insulting. I joined right out of High School, I knew that odds were in my favor of being sent into a war zone sooner or later. I was told that I would be called upon to do so from day 1 in Boot Camp.

Because if you're not perpared to go into a war zone, the Marines don't want you. You can still serve your country in a valuable way, just not in it's Marine Corps.

[Elfdart]

Moore was coming at it from the point of view of the parents of those serving. Try telling a middle-aged woman whose 18-21 son was blown to bits that he's not a "kid". When an 18-year-old Marine gets killed, who do they send the notification to? His parents. Why? Because, while he might be legally of age, he's still in many ways a kid! Moore is what? 50 years old. He probably considers just about everyone on these boards a "kid". It's not meant as an insult, so calm the fuck down.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well i guess it's better Bush is sending adults to die instead of children.

Moore gets under people's skin cause he's as smug and overbearing as O'Liely and his elk but the dfference is Moore isnt a nutjob warmongering hawkish sociopath. Yeah he's an overzealous but i submit to you this:

A zealot with a moral compass is FAR superior than a zealot without.

[frigidmagi]

Do not tell me to calm down, ass. You could be 35, odds are your mother will see you has her little baby for life. You are still an adult, despite that. And notification is sent to NEAREST OF KIN. Unless you are married, that's your parents.

Moore was using us has a tear jerker.

"You don't want to kill children... Do you?"

It's the same has the Pro-Life baby billboard and I will not stand for being used in such a cheap and tawery manner.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Do not tell me to calm down, ass. You could be 35, odds are your mother will see you has her little baby for life. You are still an adult, despite that. And notification is sent to NEAREST OF KIN. Unless you are married, that's your parents.

Moore was using us has a tear jerker.

"You don't want to kill children... Do you?"

It's the same has the Pro-Life baby billboard and I will not stand for being used in such a cheap and tawery manner.

Right, being 'used'. You mean like being sent to rot and die in the middle of a wasteland? That kind of 'used'.

And it's more than a tear jerker for those who lost children.

[Elfdart]

How many 18-year-olds are married -even in the service?

I thought Moore was making a good point that when O'LIEly started huffing and puffing and saying that he personally would be willing to die in Fallujah, it was hot air. People Moore's and O'LIEly's age aren't sent into assaulting urban targets. That's why Moore brought up "kids". I don't think he was calling Marines a bunch of babies. You're reading too much into this.

[Elfdart]

Oh, and if Moore wanted to be a dick, he could have called out O'LIEly The Fallujah Avenger as a chickenhawk for ducking Vietnam.

[frigidmagi]

How many 18-year-olds are married -even in the service?

More then you think. I'll give you an example, my platoon had 42 marines, 19 are under 20, 12 of those were married men. This is not a rare thing.

Right, being 'used'. You mean like being sent to rot and die in the middle of a wasteland? That kind of 'used'.

Gee, the military sent to fight a war! How shocking! You want to be pissed at Bush for starting something over shit-poor intell? Go ahead, you'd be right to. You want to be pissed at Bush for completly fucking up the occupication beyond anyone wildest nightmares... Yeah you should be, it's part of the reason he lost my vote (other than the rampant facisim...)

But we're not sent to 'rot and die' we were sent TO DO THE GODDAMN JOB WE SIGNED ON TO DO it's part of our oath 'follow the legal orders of my officers and commander and chief. We were sent to fight a war, which is vastly different. Currently we're being sent to hold the area down. It's not sending us out to rot and die, you idiot.

And it's more than a tear jerker for those who lost children.

And Moore cheapens the grief of those people and the men and women who are being griefed over. The parents have every right to sadden by the deaths of their sons and daughters, however that doesn't give Moore the right to use has a political manuever. You wanna be against the war? Fine, don't use us has your little ad to drum up support.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I'm sorry that i used the wrong words to describe the occupation but it bothers me immensely to hear about people being killed in bombings and attacks every other day, even if i'm not there, and to me it seems like the hawks have abadoned them. I didnt mean any offense by it.

[Durandal]

"Bush is sarificing the children." Moore on fox in the rather idiotic O Reilly vs Moore, the battle of the extremist stone walls. I will report that they were adults and polite towards each other, O'Reilly thanked Moore for coming on at the end and Moore thanked him for having him, there were no personnal attacks or cutting of the mikes this time.

Speaking for for myself has a Marine that served in Iraq...

Fuck you, Moore.

I was not a child, my platoon mates were not children. We were legal adults and we choose to go. We choose to be servicemembers, not our parents, us. I signed myself into the Marines, not Mom and Dad, I've never I was not a sarificifal lamb, I was a Marine in United States Marine Corps and I went in with the clear knowledge that I was in danger and you know what, I would do it again, the whole 4 years, the war, all of it.

18 year-olds are legal adults, but they are not considered legally responsible enough to drink alcohol. Sure, it's a stupid law (and if anything, I'd support exempting servicemen from the alcohol age requirement), but from a legal standpoint, 18 year-olds aren't full adults.

Furthermore, 18 year-olds are barely out of adolescence, and males will continue for another 2 years. I don't care how mature you think you are or thought you were at 18; you're still a kid with a lot to learn about life. I'm 21, and I've learned a bit in the past three years, but the most important thing I've learned is how much I don't know.

So yes, those poor 18 year-olds dying over in Iraq are just kids, and it's a tragedy that their lives were taken from them so early on. That's what Moore meant.

By calling us children, by suggesting we were "sarificed," he belittled us, he belittled my brothers and sisters in uniform who laid down their lives, he belittled the men and women who made the choice to wear the uniform and put themselves on the line. Moore is using us has a damn tearjerker to advance his postion. It's like the little baby pro-life billboards.

No, he was saying that it's a tragedy that they lost their lives when they were really just getting started. It is a sacrifice, and they are really just kids. Sometimes when he's watching the news and hears about another young guy getting killed in Iraq or anywhere, my dad shakes his head and says, "He was just a kid." He's not being offensive, and Michael Moore isn't either. Like it or not, those men and women over there are being sacrificed, and they're being sacrificed to the God of Public Opinion.

[Knife]

I mirror you thoughts, Frigid. I took offense at 'sacrifice' as if they didn't have any choice in it. Wheather they were 18 or 38, the men and women in uniform made the choice to join and serve.

When he asked Bill that question, I turned to my wife and said that I would defer to my kids choice to go. Its not a sacrifice in the way that Moore wants it to be, as if we just offer up our young for such adventures. They make their desicions and that is part of them becoming an adult. Wheather we like those decisions or not.

[Master of Ossus]

What I'm especially bothered by, here, is his consistent attitude that it's someone else's choice whether someone decides to serve in the military or not. Remember that stupid stunt when he asked congressmen to sign their kids up for military service? Frankly, I don't think Michael Moore understands the concept that people in the military are not conscripted by their parents. They're not sold into slavery, and although it's a much more appealing option to financially impoverished youths than it is to the very wealthy, no one is being forced to go to recruitment centers.

[Rogue 9]

No, he was saying that it's a tragedy that they lost their lives when they were really just getting started. It is a sacrifice, and they are really just kids. Sometimes when he's watching the news and hears about another young guy getting killed in Iraq or anywhere, my dad shakes his head and says, "He was just a kid." He's not being offensive, and Michael Moore isn't either. Like it or not, those men and women over there are being sacrificed, and they're being sacrificed to the God of Public Opinion.

I think you're missing Frigid's point. This isn't about quibbling over the definition of the cutoff age for adulthood. The main point is that those in the military chose to serve, and are not being unwillingly sacrificed, as Moore seemed to imply. If anything, its at least in large part self-sacrifice. They're not drafted, and using the Marines and Army as political pawns is disrespectful. It is too bad, but using fallen soldiers as political fodder is disrespect in the extreme.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Yes. THey did make a choice, but I hate how the choice seems sometimes limited for many people. The military likes to make it seem much better than it is. Don't get me wrong, I have family members in the military, and it is agood, respectable job, but it is dangerous. I don't know too many wealth people who go into the military. I would never do it consciously. I don't want to die.

By the way I saw recruiters rush up and sweet-talk young adults at my school into joining up, they seemedd very intimidating and convincing. What do you think? I don't think a lot of immature teenages can handle that. Some are better than others, but not a lot. Older adults, however, I separate from the teen-aged soldiers. They might have the same economic reasons for going to the military, but they are at least older.

[Master of Ossus]

Yes. THey did make a choice, but I hate how the choice seems sometimes limited for many people. The military likes to make it seem much better than it is. Don't get me wrong, I have family members in the military, and it is agood, respectable job, but it is dangerous. I don't know too many wealth people who go into the military.

That's because the benefits for military members, while numerically the same, are considerably smaller from their perspective. Since very wealthy families can usually already afford to send their children to college, from which they'll have the ability to receive good jobs, it's a less attractive proposition for the very wealthy. That being said, some join the military, anyway, usually out of a sense of obligation. I, myself, seriously considered joining the military after HS, but I didn't feel that such service would be needed, at the time.

I would never do it consciously. I don't want to die.

I don't think very many people want to die, but for some people the benefits of serving in the military outweigh the costs. One of my HS classmates, who was recently killed in Iraq, gave me the impression last time I saw him that he knew it was a possibility, but understood that someone was going to have to take that chance.

By the way I saw recruiters rush up and sweet-talk young adults at my school into joining up, they seemedd very intimidating and convincing. What do you think? I don't think a lot of immature teenages can handle that.

To be honest, I'm not too familiar with their methods. I actually think that the military presents a very good option for a lot of people. Yes, there are serious risks associated with it, but the benefits are quite considerable. It provides an opportunity that a lot of people wouldn't have, otherwise.

Some are better than others, but not a lot. Older adults, however, I separate from the teen-aged soldiers. They might have the same economic reasons for going to the military, but they are at least older.

Frankly, I don't really see that the age is that critical. When I was leaving HS, I think I had a pretty good grasp of what the costs and benefits would be, and I think I was able to make a responsible decision about it. I chose not to join, some other people signed up. I don't think that anyone who thought about it undertook that decision lightly.

[HemlockGrey]

I might add that a lot of the recruiters, at least in my area, are extremely dishonest. The ones that hang out in the cafeteria in the high school avoid all mention of combat, say that deployments are usually limited, low-risk, mostly education, travel-the-world, meet-new-people, no killing or anything, yup, it's just one giant tropical vacation in the Army.

[Gandalf]

I might add that a lot of the recruiters, at least in my area, are extremely dishonest. The ones that hang out in the cafeteria in the high school avoid all mention of combat, say that deployments are usually limited, low-risk, mostly education, travel-the-world, meet-new-people, no killing or anything, yup, it's just one giant tropical vacation in the Army.

You have recruiters in your school?

[HemlockGrey]

Yeah. Every so often they come in and set up little tables full of pamphlets in the junior and senior cafeterias. Once one of them gave me a five-minute talk before I was able to get a word in and tell him I was a freshman, and really only wanted to use the vending machine.

Of course, pretty much everyone in the school is fairly comfortable economically (and some are even affluent, and a handful could possibly be considered opulent) so it's not like they're preying on the disenfranchised or anything.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Well, there are people who are dying at an awfully young age in the war, and if you want to get technical about it, those that died are still children. They still have mothers, fathers, and/or family members that care about them.

Umm at 18 you're legally an adult no matter how much your parents want to hold onto the past.

[Colonel Olrik]

Yes, damn you for calling 18 year old kids what they are. Seriously, any of you guys in the final years of college, just look at the freshmen at the start of the next year, and tell me they're not a bunch of kids. Yeah, I also felt grownup and responsible when I that age, but now I understand diferent. I'm sure some of those who are in Iraq went there without having their first drink, or their first girl, or their first frat party.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yes, damn you for calling 18 year old kids what they are. Seriously, any of you guys in the final years of college, just look at the freshmen at the start of the next year, and tell me they're not a bunch of kids. Yeah, I also felt grownup and responsible when I that age, but now I understand diferent. I'm sure some of those who are in Iraq went there without having their first drink, or their first girl, or their first frat party.

They're young but they're are not kids. They're adults....inexperienced but nevertheless they're still adults.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

The interview- word by word. Enjoy.

Personally, I thought O'Reilly did a good job on the interview. Only thing I really fault him on is standing my Bush and defending his decision to act on bad "intellegence".