The lovely latest news of the Greens.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2004-07-26 03:47pm

I realize animal testing is a necessary evil, I'm just against it when it concerns animals that are normally human companions. They might be receiving humane care at something like a university lab, but can you say that about the others? A couple years back there was a group operating in Indianapolis, that would steal dogs and cats from people's yards and sell them to research labs. I haven't heard anything about it recently, so I assume they either moved on or that the police caught them. If any of you had had a pet disappear like that, would you think "It's for the betterment of mankind" and get over it? There was also an incident a while back where the group we adopted our dogs from got into a legal battle. Some guy who was supposed to transfer 60 dogs to them decided to make a little extra and sold them off to a research lab instead. Last I heard of that, the group was taking him to court for breach of contract. Alyrium, in response to your question, I would care if someone were to kill you or something, because I "know" you. If it were to happen to someone that I've never talked to, probably will never contact in any way, then no. It'd just be something I read about in the newspaper and not care. As for the images that Duchess raised questions about, here:

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-07-26 03:53pm

Ok, treating animals like that is just fucked up. If those pics are real, methinks cruelty charges should be brought up.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-07-27 04:48am

I've seen worse done to humans by other humans. For all the prattling of people who say we need to eliminate suffering in the world, isn't that precisely what these scientists are doing? I'm sorry that humans have a greater priority than animals, but, speaking as a human, I'm not sorry.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2004-07-27 04:54am

Joe wrote:
Joe wrote:And again, the Onion anticipates life.
Bugger. This is what I ought to have linked to.

The scary thing is that PETA probably got the idea from that Onion article.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-27 04:59am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I've seen worse done to humans by other humans. For all the prattling of people who say we need to eliminate suffering in the world, isn't that precisely what these scientists are doing? I'm sorry that humans have a greater priority than animals, but, speaking as a human, I'm not sorry.

That's depraved ethical indifference. It's one thing to say that something is a sadly necessary evil (although I doubt that case can be made for all animal experimentation; some of it is seriously fucked up), but it's quite another to say you feel nothing. Pictures like that make me ill.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-27 05:06am

Out of curiosity, what is objectionable about the first and third pictures? I see destroyed animals, what I don't see is any evidence they were mistreated while they were alive. They're not something I'd want to pin on my wall but I don't have huge ethical problems seeing such images.

I can buy the second picture being disturbing, but I can't say it's vastly different from what one might see in some animal shelters and the like. Cruel and something to be eliminated, but not a problem inherit in and unique to animal testing.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2004-07-27 12:19pm

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I've seen worse done to humans by other humans. For all the prattling of people who say we need to eliminate suffering in the world, isn't that precisely what these scientists are doing? I'm sorry that humans have a greater priority than animals, but, speaking as a human, I'm not sorry.

Not at all? You should at least be able to muster a wistful sigh.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-07-27 12:52pm

Howedar wrote:Out of curiosity, what is objectionable about the first and third pictures? I see destroyed animals, what I don't see is any evidence they were mistreated while they were alive. They're not something I'd want to pin on my wall but I don't have huge ethical problems seeing such images.

I can buy the second picture being disturbing, but I can't say it's vastly different from what one might see in some animal shelters and the like. Cruel and something to be eliminated, but not a problem inherit in and unique to animal testing.

Damn you, you're not supposed to actually analyze what's going on in these pictures! You're just supposed to see dead puppies and have an emotional reaction! Get with the program!

Korvan · Post by **Korvan** » 2004-07-27 04:08pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:... The worst thing I should ever have to worry about while working to save millions of lives, is getting too attached to the dogs before I have to inject them with god knows what. ...

That's actually a valid worry. I knew someone who left the field since he started feeling really bad. His lab was working with a nasty virus that could only be kept alive in a host, in this case, baby ducks. Since the virus killed the ducklings quite quickly, my friends job was to transfer the virus from dead ducklings into fresh ones. He joked that he had built up too much bad karma for one lifetime.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-07-27 04:11pm

I have no sympathy for baby birds, that wouldnt be hard for me to do.

However, Dogs... I have a soft spot for

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-07-27 04:30pm

I have real problems with the idea of experimenting on dogs, because of my emotional attachment to them.

I would advocate performing medical experiments on pedophiles before dogs.

1337n1nj4 · Post by **1337n1nj4** » 2004-07-27 04:36pm

It always disturbs me to see animals suffer. I realize that it's necessary, for the most part, but I just couldn't be involved in it.

I do like the pedophile idea however; I don't think that'd get very far though.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-07-27 04:44pm

Jadeite wrote:I didn't say I'd like to see them shot, just that I wouldn't feel sorry for them.

The sound of a prideful, backpeddling little fuck.

Xenophobe3691 · Post by **Xenophobe3691** » 2004-07-27 08:25pm

1337n1nj4 wrote:It always disturbs me to see animals suffer. I realize that it's necessary, for the most part, but I just couldn't be involved in it.

I do like the pedophile idea however; I don't think that'd get very far though.

It would if you took some of the kids disturbed by these...assholes...and made them tell Congress just what the pedophiles did, and how much it hurts...

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-07-27 11:51pm

Darth Wong wrote: That's depraved ethical indifference. It's one thing to say that something is a sadly necessary evil (although I doubt that case can be made for all animal experimentation; some of it is seriously fucked up), but it's quite another to say you feel nothing. Pictures like that make me ill.

Are you being sarcastic? I would obviously not have the same response to pictures of humans having suffered such fates. I don't think putting your species first is a sign of "depraved ethical indifference" when there is a clear level of distinction in the cognitive functions of humans and animals.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-07-28 01:25am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Are you being sarcastic? I would obviously not have the same response to pictures of humans having suffered such fates.

That's not the issue at hand.

I don't think putting your species first is a sign of "depraved ethical indifference" when there is a clear level of distinction in the cognitive functions of humans and animals.

You said that you are "not sorry." That implies you do not care at all.

Putting your own species (or your family, or your friends) first is one thing. Not feeling sorry, however, is cold.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2004-07-28 01:31am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
You said that you are "not sorry." That implies you do not care at all.

Putting your own species (or your family, or your friends) first is one thing. Not feeling sorry, however, is cold.

I have no evidence that those animals were mistreated. I have no evidence to the contrary that those bodies did not end up that way post-mortum--indeed, it seems likely, knowing the very strigent regulations on animal care that exist in all countries where someone wouldn't be shot dead in the process of getting such pictures. That live dog does not look any worse off than in many overcrowded kennels in this country.

So, altogether: Why should I be sorry when I have no idea if there is anything to be sorry for?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-28 01:37am

I know dogs, Marina, and that live dog is down right skeletal, even for it's breed. A dog that starved is clearly being mistreated, and just because you'll find dogs in kennel like it doesn't make it any less abuse. Starving dogs in your possession is a crime, you know, even if they are test subjects.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-07-28 01:37am

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: I have no evidence that those animals were mistreated. I have no evidence to the contrary that those bodies did not end up that way post-mortum--indeed, it seems likely, knowing the very strigent regulations on animal care that exist in all countries where someone wouldn't be shot dead in the process of getting such pictures. That live dog does not look any worse off than in many overcrowded kennels in this country.

So, altogether: Why should I be sorry when I have no idea if there is anything to be sorry for?

They were still sacrificed for human ends. You might feel that humans come on top, but one should still feel something at other organisms' sacrifice.

BTW, you also don't know what great, meaningful end these animals died for. If it was for Cosmetics Research rather than Ebola, would you feel the same?

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-07-28 02:05am

They were still sacrificed for human ends.

There is nothing wrong with killing animals for human ends. Get off your high horse.

You might feel that humans come on top, but one should still feel something at other organisms' sacrifice.

There is nothing wrong with empathy- however it is completely irrational to cancel benefical research simply because an animal has to die for it.

BTW, you also don't know what great, meaningful end these animals died for. If it was for Cosmetics Research rather than Ebola, would you feel the same?

Yes. We have every right to kill animals to suit our ends- even if it's as simple an end as making us appear more sexually attractive. Animal research is just another application of this principle.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-07-28 02:27am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:There is nothing wrong with killing animals for human ends. Get off your high horse.

Not on any high horse here. I've already admitted, I think, that I eat meat. Thus, I kill animals for human ends.

I'm reacting to the total lack of sympathy apparent on Marina's part. Apparently, it extends to you as well.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-07-28 02:28am

Oops, I didn't admit that I ate meat in this thread. Darn. It must have been on one of my trashed drafts.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-07-28 02:34am

I'm reacting to the total lack of sympathy apparent on Marina's part. Apparently, it extends to you as well

Bullshit. I feel sorry for the animals- even the cows I eat on a regular basis. However, I'm not about to sacrifice rationality to rabid "bleeding heart" emotionalism that is, apparently, running amok in the Western world.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-07-28 02:38am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Bullshit. I feel sorry for the animals- even the cows I eat on a regular basis. However, I'm not about to sacrifice rationality to rabid "bleeding heart" emotionalism that is, apparently, running amok in the Western world.

I see. That's honestly NOT the way I read your previous message. But now that you clarified it, it is closer to my position, except that I have qualms over whether a cosmetic is worth it. Kind of like kicking a dog just to relief a bit of anger.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2004-07-28 03:15am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Jadeite wrote:I didn't say I'd like to see them shot, just that I wouldn't feel sorry for them.
The sound of a prideful, backpeddling little fuck.

Fuck you. Let's take a look at my original post.

Jadeite wrote:I'm normally against these types of idiots, but the other day I came across a picture of a pile of decapitated greyhounds, who'd been killed in medical labs. I have three greyhounds, and after viewing some of the other pics of what medical labs have done to the dogs, I can't say I'd be sorry to see the people who did it ending up on the receiving end of a bullet.

Golly gee! I don't see a "I'd like to see them shot." anywhere in there. Perhaps you can find it for me?