Borg/Species 8472/Empire Debate
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Borg/Species 8472/Empire Debate
Hello, I am new. An I think I will start off by saying I am a Trekker and support the Destruction of the Empire! Anyways this is a Borg vs Empire debate, and I will start it off with Information from SD.net.
1.
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The Borg: This scene was produced as described, and it showed that Borg cubes are almost entirely hollow, with vast, open interior spaces (a similar scene was shown in STFC).
This indicates that the size of Borg cubes is somewhat exaggerated; while their volume is large, it is mostly empty space. There is no intelligible reason to build their ships this way (it vastly increases their targeting profile for no good reason), and it indicates either staggering stupidity or a psychological warfare motive (making their ships look really big so they can cow their opponents into blind terror).
Some have suggested that the interior cavity may serve some useful function such as carrying captured vessels, but that is a flimsy rationalization at best; there is no visible opening through which a large vessel could be drawn in , and they could just as easily do their work inside a ship parked next to theirs rather than dragging it inside (particularly since we know they can drag ships along with them at warp speed if necessary).
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Borg Ships are built supidly larger for reasons of fear? Last time I checked the 1600m ISD and 24000m SSD is kind of Big!!! Borg Cubes may be bigger than an ISD, but those SSD are way bigger and would be considered dumb to build. Also, the Borg ship does carry other ships, in the finale episode of ST:VOY the Voyager was pulled into a Borg Sphere, and In ST:FC a small sphere was launched from a Cube, the Door seen clearly in the shot!
2.
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Species 8472: As shown onscreen, the ships all contribute energy toward a centrally located different-looking and presumably special planet-killer ship. This beam strikes the planet, and as described in the screenplay, sets off some kind of chain reaction which moves across the planet.
From a thermodynamic perspective, the long delay before explosion (15 seconds after the start of initial firing and several seconds after cease-fire) indicates a chain reaction, as described in the screenplay. In a direct energy transfer situation, the planet would begin expanding immediately (as Alderaan did), because it is impossible to add energy to something without increasing its energy state (see first law of thermodynamics), and there is no delay (a delay would imply that the missing energy is magically stored somewhere without any physical manifestations).
It would be interesting to know how this weapon would interact with a planetary shield, since any chain reaction would presumably be ineffective.
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Species 8472 are a very powerful race. With ships no bigger than 200m they can destroy Borg vessels (3000m+) in a single shot. True the Borg talk first then fire, but the shields on a Cube is extremly powerful and can adapt to all known weapons. This just shows how powerful an 8472 ships energy weapon really is.
The Death Star can destroy a Planet faster than 8472, but this requires a lot of Energy and the DS is clearly way too big. it only takes 9 8472 vessels to combine energy and fire a shot into a planet. Also, as advaned as a Borg ship is, i am sure an entire Borg planet has a shield grid on it, this might in fact be the reason of its slow destruction rate.
Well, more to come, but what do you SW people think?
1.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Borg: This scene was produced as described, and it showed that Borg cubes are almost entirely hollow, with vast, open interior spaces (a similar scene was shown in STFC).
This indicates that the size of Borg cubes is somewhat exaggerated; while their volume is large, it is mostly empty space. There is no intelligible reason to build their ships this way (it vastly increases their targeting profile for no good reason), and it indicates either staggering stupidity or a psychological warfare motive (making their ships look really big so they can cow their opponents into blind terror).
Some have suggested that the interior cavity may serve some useful function such as carrying captured vessels, but that is a flimsy rationalization at best; there is no visible opening through which a large vessel could be drawn in , and they could just as easily do their work inside a ship parked next to theirs rather than dragging it inside (particularly since we know they can drag ships along with them at warp speed if necessary).
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Borg Ships are built supidly larger for reasons of fear? Last time I checked the 1600m ISD and 24000m SSD is kind of Big!!! Borg Cubes may be bigger than an ISD, but those SSD are way bigger and would be considered dumb to build. Also, the Borg ship does carry other ships, in the finale episode of ST:VOY the Voyager was pulled into a Borg Sphere, and In ST:FC a small sphere was launched from a Cube, the Door seen clearly in the shot!
2.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Species 8472: As shown onscreen, the ships all contribute energy toward a centrally located different-looking and presumably special planet-killer ship. This beam strikes the planet, and as described in the screenplay, sets off some kind of chain reaction which moves across the planet.
From a thermodynamic perspective, the long delay before explosion (15 seconds after the start of initial firing and several seconds after cease-fire) indicates a chain reaction, as described in the screenplay. In a direct energy transfer situation, the planet would begin expanding immediately (as Alderaan did), because it is impossible to add energy to something without increasing its energy state (see first law of thermodynamics), and there is no delay (a delay would imply that the missing energy is magically stored somewhere without any physical manifestations).
It would be interesting to know how this weapon would interact with a planetary shield, since any chain reaction would presumably be ineffective.
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Species 8472 are a very powerful race. With ships no bigger than 200m they can destroy Borg vessels (3000m+) in a single shot. True the Borg talk first then fire, but the shields on a Cube is extremly powerful and can adapt to all known weapons. This just shows how powerful an 8472 ships energy weapon really is.
The Death Star can destroy a Planet faster than 8472, but this requires a lot of Energy and the DS is clearly way too big. it only takes 9 8472 vessels to combine energy and fire a shot into a planet. Also, as advaned as a Borg ship is, i am sure an entire Borg planet has a shield grid on it, this might in fact be the reason of its slow destruction rate.
Well, more to come, but what do you SW people think?
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Welcome to sd.net, Sovereign. But first I would like to warn you that this board's members (excluding me) are VERY Star Wars oriented. Expect people to respond with empire wins throughout this thread.
Now as to answer your topic:
If the Borg act stupid and don't adapt well to Empire weapons, then Empire wins with little difficulty. If the Borg act smart and adapt to Empire's tech, then the outcome is unknown.
As for Species 8472, if 8472's partial immunity to everything but nanoprobes comes into play, then Empire is screwed. If that imunity is written off, then Empire may win but we don't know how many ships 8472 has.
And once again, welcome to sd.net
Now as to answer your topic:
If the Borg act stupid and don't adapt well to Empire weapons, then Empire wins with little difficulty. If the Borg act smart and adapt to Empire's tech, then the outcome is unknown.
As for Species 8472, if 8472's partial immunity to everything but nanoprobes comes into play, then Empire is screwed. If that imunity is written off, then Empire may win but we don't know how many ships 8472 has.
And once again, welcome to sd.net
What's her bust size!?
It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAND!!!!!!!!!
It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAND!!!!!!!!!
Fact Borg Ships Tradtionaly Fire at no more than one ship at a time and even then from singalr locations, Much of the *Blank space of Cubes is just that blank of useful thingsBorg Ships are built supidly larger for reasons of fear? Last time I checked the 1600m ISD and 24000m SSD is kind of Big!!!
Except ISDs are studded with over 200 weapons and SSDs over 500 weapons each able to independalty target and fire at anything they wishBorg Cubes may be bigger than an ISD, but those SSD are way bigger and would be considered dumb to build.
Must I teach you basic Chemistry?It would be interesting to know how this weapon would interact with a planetary shield, since any chain reaction would presumably be ineffective.
CHAIN-REACTION implies that somthing is reacting with somthing else, If one stores hundreds of goals of Gasoline in space as long as it does not have one of its reactants(Oxygen) one does not have to worry about it combusting though its not the best of example it proves the point
If the two REACTANTS can't get at each other because a non-reactan is in the way(Like a Shield hmmm yep like that) then any sort of Super Duper Chain Reactions would be rendered ineffective
Lemme Clue you in, Remeber Slave 1 from ATOC? It packs Missle capable of nuking a cube and its under 50 Meters Long, Hell B-Wings can carry missle capable of nuking Borg CubesSpecies 8472 are a very powerful race. With ships no bigger than 200m they can destroy Borg vessels (3000m+) in a single shot. True the Borg talk first then fire, but the shields on a Cube is extremly powerful and can adapt to all known weapons. This just shows how powerful an 8472 ships energy weapon really is.
Its big because its a SPACE STATION, The acutal Laser itself is much Smaller, The Darksaber(Just the Superlaser) was supposdly under 2,000meters and half a thousand agian in diameterThe Death Star can destroy a Planet faster than 8472, but this requires a lot of Energy and the DS is clearly way too big.
The Deathstar Housed the Superlaser but mostly it was ment to house troops, ships(It can service entire Star-Destroyers, eight of them infact) and basicly be a roving symbol of Imperal Might
Ignoring Vissul Evidance that the Planet-Buster Ship looks diffrent from the carbon copy ships that 8472, If a SINGLE ship looks diffrent from every single other ship employed by 8472, there is probably a good reasonit only takes 9 8472 vessels to combine energy and fire a shot into a planet. Also, as advaned as a Borg ship is
Exect a shield Big enough to protect a entire planet at least in TNG is consider impossible, Yet consider the fact that we see the shot strike the surface then expolded from the inside, So what... They had the shield Grid buried 500 Meters below the ground Sovergin?i am sure an entire Borg planet has a shield grid on it, this might in fact be the reason of its slow destruction rate
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Neither the Borg or 8472 stand a chance against the Empire. I suggest you read more of this site before taking part in these debates.
You also failed to deal the parts of Mr. Wong's site that you quoted. Even if cubes carried a sphere, that still leaves A LOT of empty space inside the ship. And the big difference between a cube and a SSD is that the SSD isn't almost hollow like the cube. In Wong's comments about 8472, he said that the delay before explosion indicated a chain reaction. You "refute" this with a red herring about how they can blow off Borg ships easily, even though SW shields and weapons are orders of magnitude greater. Also, just because Borg ships are advanced compared to the Federation is not proof that they have planetary shielding.
You also failed to deal the parts of Mr. Wong's site that you quoted. Even if cubes carried a sphere, that still leaves A LOT of empty space inside the ship. And the big difference between a cube and a SSD is that the SSD isn't almost hollow like the cube. In Wong's comments about 8472, he said that the delay before explosion indicated a chain reaction. You "refute" this with a red herring about how they can blow off Borg ships easily, even though SW shields and weapons are orders of magnitude greater. Also, just because Borg ships are advanced compared to the Federation is not proof that they have planetary shielding.
If a SSD is 8km then the ISD is only 727 meters long.Shinova wrote:Aren't SSDs only 8km and Eclipse's 17km?XaLEv wrote:Executors are only 17.6 kilometers long.
Why you ask? Because the SSD model was exactly 11 times longer then the ISD model. The ISD was described as being 1 mile long and offical information that didn't make it into the movies describe the SSD as being 11 times longer then an ISD.
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Super Star Destroyer
Homeworld:
Fondor
Height:
12,800 meters
Manufacturer:
Kuat Drive Yards
Type:
Cruiser
Affiliation:
Empire
The Super Star Destroyer is one of the largest, most powerful Imperial vessels ever created. It follows the same basic dagger-shaped design of the Imperial-class Star Destroyers, but magnified to much larger scale. A smooth hull presents an arrowhead shaped profiled when viewed from above. Resting in the center of this hull is an "island" of habitable volume. Weapons emplacements bristle on the layered city-like surface. The trapezoidal command tower stands near the aft end of this island, capped with two geodesic communication and deflection domes. The underside is a busy network of engineering and superstructure. Thirteen colossal engine thrusters glow blood red as they push the immense craft through space.
Though there are several command ships, the most distinguished of the Super Star Destroyers is Lord Vader's flagship, the Executor. This vessel led the Imperial Death Squadron after the Battle of Yavin. It also served as the command ship at the Battle of Endor.
At that critical engagement, its officer, Admiral Piett, was tasked with preventing Alliance warships from escaping the battle. He did not expect the unorthodox Alliance strategy of engaging the Imperial Fleet at point-blank range. The Executor was a prime target for repeated barrages from Alliance vessels. Eventually, the Rebel ships were able to penetrate its powerful bridge shields. A wayward A-wing starfighter, crippled and out of control, spun directly into the Executor's bridge. Its control systems destroyed, the Executor was embraced by the second Death Star's gravity well, and the two collided in a colossal explosion that destroyed the flagship.
Fondor
Height:
12,800 meters
Manufacturer:
Kuat Drive Yards
Type:
Cruiser
Affiliation:
Empire
The Super Star Destroyer is one of the largest, most powerful Imperial vessels ever created. It follows the same basic dagger-shaped design of the Imperial-class Star Destroyers, but magnified to much larger scale. A smooth hull presents an arrowhead shaped profiled when viewed from above. Resting in the center of this hull is an "island" of habitable volume. Weapons emplacements bristle on the layered city-like surface. The trapezoidal command tower stands near the aft end of this island, capped with two geodesic communication and deflection domes. The underside is a busy network of engineering and superstructure. Thirteen colossal engine thrusters glow blood red as they push the immense craft through space.
Though there are several command ships, the most distinguished of the Super Star Destroyers is Lord Vader's flagship, the Executor. This vessel led the Imperial Death Squadron after the Battle of Yavin. It also served as the command ship at the Battle of Endor.
At that critical engagement, its officer, Admiral Piett, was tasked with preventing Alliance warships from escaping the battle. He did not expect the unorthodox Alliance strategy of engaging the Imperial Fleet at point-blank range. The Executor was a prime target for repeated barrages from Alliance vessels. Eventually, the Rebel ships were able to penetrate its powerful bridge shields. A wayward A-wing starfighter, crippled and out of control, spun directly into the Executor's bridge. Its control systems destroyed, the Executor was embraced by the second Death Star's gravity well, and the two collided in a colossal explosion that destroyed the flagship.
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Re: Borg/Species 8472/Empire Debate
And now let's see reason **WHY** SSD is also considered dumb to build... oh, no. You don't have any, do you? I see.....Sovereign wrote: Borg Ships are built supidly larger for reasons of fear? Last time I checked the 1600m ISD and 24000m SSD is kind of Big!!! Borg Cubes may be bigger than an ISD, but those SSD are way bigger and would be considered dumb to build.
Nitpick. So the fact a Borg Cube in ST:FC launched a **small** Borg sphere automatically disprove Mike's statement that Borg cubes are almost entirely hollow?? Puh-leezeee.....Sovereign wrote: Also, the Borg ship does carry other ships, in the finale episode of ST:VOY the Voyager was pulled into a Borg Sphere, and In ST:FC a small sphere was launched from a Cube, the Door seen clearly in the shot!
If you want to show how powerful S8472 is, please give us power figures instead of vague statements. You'll look more intelligent that way.Sovereign wrote: Species 8472 are a very powerful race. With ships no bigger than 200m they can destroy Borg vessels (3000m+) in a single shot. True the Borg talk first then fire, but the shields on a Cube is extremly powerful and can adapt to all known weapons. This just shows how powerful an 8472 ships energy weapon really is.
So if a planet's surface is shown receiving direct hit from a weapon, then explode, then the explosion ***slowly*** propagates throughout the surface, then the whole planet finally explode......Sovereign wrote: The Death Star can destroy a Planet faster than 8472, but this requires a lot of Energy and the DS is clearly way too big. it only takes 9 8472 vessels to combine energy and fire a shot into a planet. Also, as advaned as a Borg ship is, i am sure an entire Borg planet has a shield grid on it, this might in fact be the reason of its slow destruction rate.
.... it is BECAUSE the planet has a shield grid on it, isn't it?????
Excuse me, last time I remembered, a shield's purpose is blocking a shot from hitting the target, not *slowing* explosion process which happens AFTER the target was hit.
You DON'T WANT TO KNOW what I think about your arguments. Believe meSovereign wrote: Well, more to come, but what do you SW people think?
Re: Super Star Destroyer
[quote="Sovereign"]Homeworld:
Fondor
Height:
12,800 meters
Incorrect. The canon lenght of the Executor is no less than 17km. Period.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ssd.html
Fondor
Height:
12,800 meters
Incorrect. The canon lenght of the Executor is no less than 17km. Period.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ssd.html
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I have to agree on this one.Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Old.
Cyaround,
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I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
I'll post the conclusion for you:
Go to "Size does Matter" on www.stardestroyer.net
It'll tell you how 'dumb' building such large things is.
If the star destroyer length is accepted as 1.6km then the Executor's length is given by the length ratios between the two ships. Observations from scenes in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi where one ship occludes another constrain the length ratio to be within the range of 11.0 to 12.0, corresponding to an absolute range of 17.6km to 19.2km. Measurements based on the collision between Executor and Death Star II are inconclusive, because the curvature of the battle station's horizon cannot be measured with sufficient precision. A chain of geometric reasoning involving two independent Executor broadside views and the size of the sensor globes indicates lower limits of 16.2km and 18.1km. The conventions of the construction of warship models indicate a length of close to 17.2km. Direct measurements of the Executor model using the standard KDY command tower as a yardstick indicate a length of 17.6±0.2km, which is consistent with the photogrammetric methods and other approaches. I conclude that Executor-class command ships are somewhere between 17.4km and 17.9km long; and certainly much more than the mere 8km claimed by some Roleplaying Game sources.
It is to be hoped that the tragic underestimate of this warship's size which was accidentally promulgated in certain references will not be further compounded in future STAR WARS novels and reference books.
Go to "Size does Matter" on www.stardestroyer.net
It'll tell you how 'dumb' building such large things is.
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The 12.8 km length for the Executor is just a half-assed revision of the five mile fallacy, being an average of the WEG number and the canon length of 17.6 km. It's the one currently being used on the official web site, although I don't see why they can't just come clean and admit they're wrong. The 8 km from WEG was probably the product of sloppy research, but in this case they KNOW they're making an error and still go ahead with it.
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Well it is hard to rationalize such a powerful ship getting its ass kicked too easily in the X Wing novels.
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That's the why, but yeah, LFL screwed up.
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Let's see a few minor problems.
1. 8472 retreated after about a dozen casualties by a primitive nanotech weapon that is made by deus ex machnia. Some warriors.
2. The Borg need frequencies to adapt to. And overwhelming power will even pierce their shield regardless.
3. The SD packs multiple 200+GT cannons...none of which the Borg shields can repel.
But last but never least, something 99% of trekkies ignore...the Empire comprimises at least 1 million star systems with capablities outstripping nearly the entire ST galaxy let alone a single culture...an advanced propulsion system and guidance, and the ability to produce weapons of such mass destruction in the span of monthes with minimal effort. Think about this...a war machine that basically is the planet Earth in terms of resources and devoting it's attention against a country the size Europe...and being of several orders of magnitude of tech above Europe.
You tell me who wins.
1. 8472 retreated after about a dozen casualties by a primitive nanotech weapon that is made by deus ex machnia. Some warriors.
2. The Borg need frequencies to adapt to. And overwhelming power will even pierce their shield regardless.
3. The SD packs multiple 200+GT cannons...none of which the Borg shields can repel.
But last but never least, something 99% of trekkies ignore...the Empire comprimises at least 1 million star systems with capablities outstripping nearly the entire ST galaxy let alone a single culture...an advanced propulsion system and guidance, and the ability to produce weapons of such mass destruction in the span of monthes with minimal effort. Think about this...a war machine that basically is the planet Earth in terms of resources and devoting it's attention against a country the size Europe...and being of several orders of magnitude of tech above Europe.
You tell me who wins.
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Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete