Dark Side "Rapid Aging" in the SW films (part 9999

[Kurgan]

Sorry if this is a tired subject, but I was thinking again about the whole issue of the Dark Side and its property (according to the EU) of "rapid aging" which is applied to Palpatine.

According to Dark Empire, the guy we see in the movies isn't really Palpatine, but a clone, in a long line of clones. Palpy died since his body "wore out" from the incredible powers he was wielding, so he "transferred his soul" somehow into a cloned body. He did this for many years and so was able to "return" even after Vader killed him in ROTJ.

In any case, with regards to the prequels, this would be interesting if we accept it as happening, because we should assume that Palpatine is doing it all along, since his powers are already demonstrated (he is able to hide the fact that he's a master of the force from all of the Jedi, even the Jedi Council Members in regular close contact with him). He had to hide from the Jedi from birth, in fact, since he was "born in the Republic" (as Qui Gon's conversation in TPM says) he'd have been identified and trained as a Jedi. Unless of course he was "cast off" as "too old" (but being born, we assume, on a world like Naboo would preclude that). Still, where is the throw away line from Yoda "Hmmm, Palpatine, I refused to train, when 12 years old he showed up at my door, too old he was, maybe something he learned on his own?").

Granted, this may be explained in Episode III (but I won't hold my breath). And this whole thing may be moot, but since we've got like 10 months to wait...

Let's step aside from whether or not Palpatine's "rapid aging" thing is actually "true" for a moment. In the films themselves Palpatine seems to age normally enough. He's a man in his 50's in TPM (the actor was 55 in 1999). 10 years later (yes, I made a typo! fixed!) he's in his 60's (AOTC). Only 3 years pass by the time of ROTS, so he shouldn't have changed too much (unless the rapid aging theory is something Lucas picks up on, though he could look a little more weathered due to the stress of high office). By the time we first seem him in the classic trilogy, he'd be in his 80's. If ESB is any indication, he's an old crone by then, and only a max of 4 years pass before we finally see him as his old crusty self in ROTJ.

Palpy would have to "age" his clones such that people around him wouldn't notice. Otherwise he'd suddenly look like a 20 year old for awhile, then an old crone (like in ROTJ), then be young again, etc. Granted, he might be "using the Force" to make himself appear the right age to people around him, but then if that's the case, he wouldn't need to age his clones at all. We the audience would be seeing him "as the mind tricked" would see him.

Then again, we wonder how he hides from the Jedi. Is he using some kind of "Force Power" to cloak himself from them? Is he "clouding their vision" with a superior Force? Vader seems to detect Luke everytime Luke uses the Force, as if he's broadcasting his location. Perhaps Palpy instead is merely "turning off" the Force (something Jedi either haven't thought of, or don't know how to do). Then again, we assume he's using the Force all the time, to make people do what he wants, etc. so I'm leaning towards the "uses a superior force to hide from even the Jedi" theory.

Now, here's my new thought, after getting all that out of the way.

Anakin.

Sebastian Shaw is in his late 70's when he plays Anakin/Vader unmasked in ROTJ. So we pretty much assumed that the prequels would either show Vader as a middle aged guy already, or would take place a longer time ago/over a longer timespan than we thought.

But, here we have a 18 or 19 year old Hayden Christiansen in AOTC and then only 3 years for Revenge of the Sith.

Here's the thing. We have been assuming that 20 years pass between Revenge of the Sith (Episode III) and A New Hope. Why? Because we've heard over and over that the "Harry Potter Scene" is supposed to be the last thing we see in the film, with Luke and Leia as infants. Thus, because of their apparent ages in ANH, that's the time frame.

So that means that Anakin is now only in his 40's in the classic trilogy.

Now we've been getting rumors about the "new dvd's" digitally altering Vader's unmasked and ghost scenes to show Hayden (a young man).

Yet I've seen a pic that shows him "under the mask" with only the eyes changed.

So did the Dark Side age him rapidly too? But if so, why the need to show a young anakin as a ghost? Because he "turned to the Dark Side" at that age?

And what about the twins? Perhaps there is a time lapse of an indefinate period of years between the "last stuff that happens" in ROTS and the "harry potter scene." It's not out of the question.

Then let's take a look at Obi-Wan. Alec Guinness looks like he aged a lot in just 20 years... so again, perhaps there is good reason to suspect a time lapse of some kind.

Update: Sir Alec was about 63 at the time of his character's "death" in ANH. So that makes (if his character's age matches his own) Obi-wan about 40 in AOTC, and 30 in TPM.

Or else maybe it has something to do with broken hyperdrives and relative time. ; )

Anyway, just some thoughts. I'm sure we and/or the EU will retcon something out, but just wanted to share some thoughts.

Frankly, if they make Anakin "old" under the mask as Vader, that may indicate that Lucas has accepted and is supporting the "Dark Side ages you faster" idea. Or all those digital images may be hoaxes and misinformation for now...

[Cao Cao]

Now we've been getting rumors about the "new dvd's" digitally altering Vader's unmasked and ghost scenes to show Hayden (a young man).

Really? That would suck!

[Illuminatus Primus]

In any case, with regards to the prequels, this would be interesting if we accept it as happening,

If you follow LFL's policy, you must.

because we should assume that Palpatine is doing it all along,

No, because the EU already said his original body died shortly before the Battle of Yavin.

since his powers are already demonstrated (he is able to hide the fact that he's a master of the force from all of the Jedi, even the Jedi Council Members in regular close contact with him). He had to hide from the Jedi from birth, in fact, since he was "born in the Republic" (as Qui Gon's conversation in TPM says) he'd have been identified and trained as a Jedi. Unless of course he was "cast off" as "too old" (but being born, we assume, on a world like Naboo would preclude that). Still, where is the throw away line from Yoda "Hmmm, Palpatine, I refused to train, when 12 years old he showed up at my door, too old he was, maybe something he learned on his own?").

No, it isn't required, because a parent, particularly a member of the Naboo aristocracy, doesn't have to surrender his child to the Jedi Order. They can, but if they do, they accept that parental ties are severed ("no attachments" and all that).

And furthermore, the Jedi Order digests a lot more Force sensitives then become Jedi. Many of them are too weak to worry about, or their parents retain them. Others are given nominal training to teach them to safeguard their Force abilities but considered too dangerous or too inappropriate for Jedi training, and go into the Agri-Corps or such. Only a few "graduate" to be taken in as a Padawan eventually. And certainly Yoda isn't personally aware of every one of these kids.

Let's step aside from whether or not Palpatine's "rapid aging" thing is actually "true" for a moment. In the films themselves Palpatine seems to age normally enough. He's a man in his 50's in TPM (the actor was 55 in 1999). 20 years later he's in his 60's (AOTC). Only 3 years pass by the time of ROTS, so he shouldn't have changed too much (unless the rapid aging theory is something Lucas picks up on, though he could look a little more weathered due to the stress of high office). By the time we first seem him in the classic trilogy, he'd be in his 80's. If ESB is any indication, he's an old crone by then, and only a max of 4 years pass before we finally see him as his old crusty self in ROTJ.

Eighty year old people don't normally look like that, and in SW they have very good medicine and age-extension and delay. In Truce at Bakura there was a 150 year old woman.

Furthermore, you still seem to have problems with the idea that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and therefore no contradiction can be intentionally manufactured between film and EU. Even if the evidence in the film does not necessarily warrant the theory, it dpes not contradict it as expressed by the EU, and therefore it stands as valid.

Palpy would have to "age" his clones such that people around him wouldn't notice. Otherwise he'd suddenly look like a 20 year old for awhile, then an old crone (like in ROTJ), then be young again, etc.

Apparently this is exactly what happens.

Granted, he might be "using the Force" to make himself appear the right age to people around him, but then if that's the case, he wouldn't need to age his clones at all. We the audience would be seeing him "as the mind tricked" would see him.

This would be well within the prior envelope of Palpatine's Sith powers. Also keep in mind that according to the Essential Guides, he is increasingly cut-off, isolated, and secluded from the Empire while he delves into research on the Dark Side and life-extention, allowing Ars Dangor and Sate Pestage and the bureaucracies to increasingly dictate day-to-day Imperial policy.

Then again, we wonder how he hides from the Jedi. Is he using some kind of "Force Power" to cloak himself from them? Is he "clouding their vision" with a superior Force? Vader seems to detect Luke everytime Luke uses the Force, as if he's broadcasting his location. Perhaps Palpy instead is merely "turning off" the Force (something Jedi either haven't thought of, or don't know how to do). Then again, we assume he's using the Force all the time, to make people do what he wants, etc. so I'm leaning towards the "uses a superior force to hide from even the Jedi" theory.

Palpatine is an incredibly powerful Sith Lord with access to huge quantities of knowledge and certainly a thousand years of experience in hiding from the Jedi due to Bane's decree over his splinter Order.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Now we've been getting rumors about the "new dvd's" digitally altering Vader's unmasked and ghost scenes to show Hayden (a young man).

Really? That would suck!

Sort of Yes and No.

Yes, both the unmasking and ghost sequences have been altered. No, Hayden is only in the ghost scene.

All that was done to the unmasking scene was that they digitally removed Shaw's eyebrows and made the circles around his eyes more natural.

[Elheru Aran]

In the films themselves Palpatine seems to age normally enough. He's a man in his 50's in TPM (the actor was 55 in 1999). 20 years later he's in his 60's (AOTC).

Minor nitpick-- AOTC is actually about 10 years, give or take a few, after TPM. One would conclude that going from his fifties to sixties would be, um, normal, y'know?

*** SPOILER!!!!!!!***







Besides, from the spoiler info I've heard, apparently Palpy was using some kind of camouflage technique/technology to hide his advanced age, which would explain the apparently normal aging rate....

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Meh, just more proof that Kurgen never knows what he's talking about...

By the way, Kurgen, Palpatine was 52 in TPM (32 BBY), born 84 BBY. Research always works better than assumptions.

[Praxis]

In the films themselves Palpatine seems to age normally enough. He's a man in his 50's in TPM (the actor was 55 in 1999). 20 years later he's in his 60's (AOTC).

erm...math nitpick...

50 + 20 = 70, not 60...

[JME2]

In the films themselves Palpatine seems to age normally enough. He's a man in his 50's in TPM (the actor was 55 in 1999). 20 years later he's in his 60's (AOTC).

erm...math nitpick...

50 + 20 = 70, not 60...

And that AOTC takes place ten years after TPM.

I think the cause for Palpatine's increased aging is that he's drawing upon the Force to cover up his connection to it, to prevent the Jedi from sensing it before he is fully secured in power. To deceived the whole Council, Windu, and even Yoda must require a huge funneling of energy through the conduit that is his body, thus casuing extreme stress. Outside observers might attribute it to the strain of running the Republic, but we the audience know better. And by the time ROTS ends, I believe that Palpatine will have channeled that much power for so long that there's no way to reverse it == but why bother. You have cloning tech, after all, and new cloens can easily handle, at least for a time, the awesome powers that you sensed while hiding from the Jedi.

Anyway, that's my two cents on the matter.

[Kurgan]

In the films themselves Palpatine seems to age normally enough. He's a man in his 50's in TPM (the actor was 55 in 1999). 20 years later he's in his 60's (AOTC).

erm...math nitpick...

50 + 20 = 70, not 60...

Typo. I realize TPM is only 10 years prior to AOTC, not 20. 60's in AOTC, 80's in OT (assuming another 20 years from ROTS to ESB).

True, Dooku does look pretty good compared to Palpatine in ROTJ. The whole "age extension/prevention technology" thing we have no idea of really... (since he's been a Jedi all his life, and now he's suddenly a master Sith Lord who claims to be "more powerful than any Jedi, even [Yoda]").

If we go that route we can't really assume anything based on appearance of age, since every young person could theoretically be an old person who's had a few "star wars face lifts." And Jedi could always use the Force to make themselves age slower too right? The "true ages" from the EU are the info I'm lacking in my research, not having those materials in front of me, so I've just been using the ages of the actors as a "close guess." Though even that isn't fool proof, since the actors in AOTC don't all appear to be 10 years older than they were in TPM (at least to me), since they obviously aren't! I'd also have assumed that ROTJ took place 6 years after ANH, unless I'd read that it was only 4 (again, from an "official" source written before the prequels).

Meh, just more proof that Kurgen never knows what he's talking about...

And Spanky still finds it impossible to resist throwing out an ad hominem.


Tell me, is ROTS 2 or 3 years after AOTC (12 or 13 years after TPM)? I thought it was 3. At least that's what I heard...

[Sharp-kun]

Now we've been getting rumors about the "new dvd's" digitally altering Vader's unmasked and ghost scenes to show Hayden (a young man).

I'm told that the "footage" of Hayden at the end of ROTJ is fake, apparently he was spliced in from an Ep 3 Webdoc.

[Kurgan]

Hence why I called them "rumors."

More pics and vid clips have been streaming out of the underground recently, but I haven't seen them ALL, just a few. Until the actual dvd's are on the shelves those things could be hoaxes or changed in the editing process.

Hopefully by the time ROTS comes to DVD all of this will be "resolved" but I just wanted to speculate until then. ; )

If it is indeed taken from a ROTS preview, then it would be natural for me to miss since I've been avoiding direct Ep3 spoilers when I can...

[Darwin]

re: the timeline

I always figured that AotC was about 10-14 years after TPM. Certainly not 20.

Anakin is definitely younger in AotC (@20) than Obi-Wan was in TPM (@30).

I always assumed about 40 years between TPM and ANH.

of course we're not taking at all into account the state of medicine and its impact on aging in the Republic/Empire. ^^;

[Kurgan]

A lot of details are left unstated in the films, it's true. Most of the time you have to go to the novelisations or screenplays, and if that fails, then some other "official" source (even if it's just whatever is posted in the SW Databank, which may or may not be in a state of revision) and if that fails then the EU eventually fills in the blanks or Lucas says something (which as we know is subject to change without notice, heh).

Everything I've read/heard (and I admit, I haven't read any of the prequel era EU material, though I have read the novelisations of Episodes I & II) says 10 years pass between TPM and AOTC. I assume that each film took place over a span of less than a year, and then we've been told (the film isn't out yet obviously) that it's been about 3 years later when ROTS occurs.

But, that said, we don't know what timespan ROTS takes place across. It may be (purely theoretical) that the time we see Luke & Leia as infants (again, just what we've heard, until the film is released we won't have the final proof) is sometime "after" the rest of the story. That could then ensure any span of time Lucas desires to occur between the two films, without having to resort to some explanation like "lightspeed relative time" or "force change perception of aging" or "the wonders and perils of SW plastic surgery tech."

I was speculating whether or not Episode III will give us any evidence for or against the "Dark Side force use incurs rapid aging penalty" theory, postulated by the EU (specifically Dark Empire I & II).

This is also tied into the rumored changes to the Classic Trilogy on DVD.

Now, it may be that there is no hard evidence or comments by Lucas that any of this is happening. But, in the end, people can still believe in the Dark Side rapid aging thing if they want to, even if nothing is spelled out in the film(s), per Spanky's comments.

Or hell, maybe the EU will throw is another curve ball. Perhaps Palpy's bee playing around with some Sith holocrons. And you know the radiation those things give off can really take its toll on a fella!

[JME2]

re: the timeline

I always figured that AotC was about 10-14 years after TPM. Certainly not 20.

Anakin is definitely younger in AotC (@20) than Obi-Wan was in TPM (@30).

I always assumed about 40 years between TPM and ANH.

of course we're not taking at all into account the state of medicine and its impact on aging in the Republic/Empire. ^^;

Lucasfilm had made it clear that AOTC is ten years after TPM, which is 30 years prior to ANH. ROS should be two years, I believe.

[Ender]

Granted, this may be explained in Episode III (but I won't hold my breath).

SPOILER



you should



Hey, I realize that was vague, but some people here think saying "I hear a production company is looking to make a raunchy teen film in which young actresses will expose thier breasts" is a major spoiler and I don't feel like getting bitched at.

[Ender]

re: the timeline

I always figured that AotC was about 10-14 years after TPM. Certainly not 20.

Anakin is definitely younger in AotC (@20) than Obi-Wan was in TPM (@30).

I always assumed about 40 years between TPM and ANH.

of course we're not taking at all into account the state of medicine and its impact on aging in the Republic/Empire. ^^;

Lucasfilm had made it clear that AOTC is ten years after TPM, which is 30 years prior to ANH. ROS should be two years, I believe.

TPM is 32 years prior, AOTC 22 years prior, ROTS 19 years prior.

[Kurgan]

What I was meaning to say all along is that I think there IS a case in the films alone for, Anakin at least aging a lot faster than is normal, once you take the prequels into account (which could in turn lend support by extension to the Palpatine theory put forth in the EU). Before the prequels were released, we could just assume that Vader is simply an old man when he dies, no special explanations are needed.

The release of Episode III and/or the new Star Wars DVD's could work for or against that evidence (or leave it the same as it is now).

[JME2]

re: the timeline

I always figured that AotC was about 10-14 years after TPM. Certainly not 20.

Anakin is definitely younger in AotC (@20) than Obi-Wan was in TPM (@30).

I always assumed about 40 years between TPM and ANH.

of course we're not taking at all into account the state of medicine and its impact on aging in the Republic/Empire. ^^;

Lucasfilm had made it clear that AOTC is ten years after TPM, which is 30 years prior to ANH. ROS should be two years, I believe.

TPM is 32 years prior, AOTC 22 years prior, ROTS 19 years prior.

Oops; my bad.

[Mange]

Oh, my god. I haven't read Dark Empire, but this sounds like one more good reason to stay away from this aspect of the EU. This whole Palpatine-Clone thing sounds redicoulus. I'm sure that according to GL's vision, Palpatine is dead, gone, finito by the end of ROTJ. Now, please don't flame me, I'm aware of LFL's canon policy (I even defend it), but when it comes to this, no. This situation reminds me a bit of Cameron's stance on Terminator 3 (BTW, I'm no fan of the Terminator movies). According to Cameron, there was no more story to tell after Terminator 2, that has been stated as the main reason as to why he didn't direct the third movie.
I think that while Lucas has said that there are no more stories to tell after ROTJ, he let the EU deal with that, but I don't believe (and won't accept) that the spirit of Palpatine/Sidious somehow survived ROTJ. One more thing that clearly shows that DE is not in line with GL's vision is that Boba Fett survived the Sarlacc. The storyline seems to be very cluttered, especially the follow-ups (and not to forget that DE ties in with KJA's novels *shrugs).
As I said, please don't flame me. I think that all people are entitled to their opinion, and for those of you who really likes DE, I say: rock on!

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Actually, Lucas has said that Dark Empire is his favourite part of the EU, and even gave copies of the graphic novel to Lucasfilm staff members when it came out.

You shouldn't shy away from it, because it's rather excellent. Dark Empire II is merely good, but is also rather worth recommendation. Just avoid Empire's End, the two-issue conclusion to the series, which is quite weak.

Additionally, James Cameron also liked T3...

[Mange]

Actually, Lucas has said that Dark Empire is his favourite part of the EU, and even gave copies of the graphic novel to Lucasfilm staff members when it came out.

You shouldn't shy away from it, because it's rather excellent. Dark Empire II is merely good, but is also rather worth recommendation. Just avoid Empire's End, the two-issue conclusion to the series, which is quite weak.

Well, perhaps I should take a look at it.

[Kurgan]

Of course Lucas loves the EU, it makes him millions of extra dollars that he can line his pockets with. What's not to love? ; )

And yes, Lucas (or his lawyers, with his authority) approve everything that gets the Star Wars logo, so in a way, Lucas approves of everything in the EU, no matter how stupid fans might think it is.

About the only thing he's publically "disavowed" seems to be the Holiday Special, even though some of that material has made it into other official sources (like the "Wookie Storybook" which talks about Chewie's family, relationship with Han and home planet of Kashyykk).

Where Lucas wields full creative control is when he makes his films. He freely changes things at a whime (witness the Special Editions) and overthrows established history (prequels). This then leaves the EU to pick up the pieces and fix George's continuity changes. In the end it all "works out."

While Lucas is quoted as saying he "looks up stuff" in official materials to make sure he didn't incorrectly re-use the name of something or whatever, it's clear that this is how it works.

I don't argue these topics to "stick it to those damn EU fanboys" (though it has been tempting sometimes), but rather to point out that we shouldn't assume that Lucas's (admittedly ever-changing) "vision" isn't held hostage to what some hired writer (even with his full approval) wrote in some paperback, comic, or game.

It's fun to both speculate on "what if we forget what we know outside the movies" about stuff on screen (how about that Jawa Faction and its political power in the Empire? How much are the bullet trains they use to get around the Death Star interior?), and it's also fun to try to interpolate back into the films stuff we know from the EU (what shadow was Xizor hiding in during the scene where he's spying on Vader and Palpy talking? Which dancer at Jabba's is Mara in disguise?).

Oh, my god. I haven't read Dark Empire, but this sounds like one more good reason to stay away from this aspect of the EU. This whole Palpatine-Clone thing sounds redicoulus. I'm sure that according to GL's vision, Palpatine is dead, gone, finito by the end of ROTJ.

Not only that, but according to the EU, Palpatine actually died prior to the events of ANH! Reminds me of the "Tom Petty is dead" theory (according to a tongue-in-cheek website I read a few years back, the rock star died before he became famous and was replaced by a look-alike for his entire public music career... so the Tom Petty the world knows is not the "real" one!). And yes, I know, again according to DE palpy's "soul" inhabits the clone bodies, but that's akin to demonic possession. Like if the ghost of Napolean was inhabiting the body of Al Gore.

One may not like the idea, but it's "official."

Now, please don't flame me, I'm aware of LFL's canon policy (I even defend it), but when it comes to this, no. This situation reminds me a bit of Cameron's stance on Terminator 3 (BTW, I'm no fan of the Terminator movies). According to Cameron, there was no more story to tell after Terminator 2, that has been stated as the main reason as to why he didn't direct the third movie.
I think that while Lucas has said that there are no more stories to tell after ROTJ, he let the EU deal with that, but I don't believe (and won't accept) that the spirit of Palpatine/Sidious somehow survived ROTJ. One more thing that clearly shows that DE is not in line with GL's vision is that Boba Fett survived the Sarlacc. The storyline seems to be very cluttered, especially the follow-ups (and not to forget that DE ties in with KJA's novels *shrugs).

Basically Lucas is saying "I stick to my guns where my story is concerned. But I also like to make more money, so I let other people take and run with it, cause it makes me rich."

So he literally has it both ways. All Star Wars is canon, but some Star Wars is more canon than others. : )

As I said, please don't flame me. I think that all people are entitled to their opinion, and for those of you who really likes DE, I say: rock on!

I enjoyed it, even though I thought it was a very contrived and silly story, it had lots of action and the art was interesting, so I guess that did it for me.