Kerry's Speech--Reactions

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-07-30 11:15am

Cairber wrote:Its so easy for people just to say because you make 200,000 you have an easy life. I love it.

It sure as fuck is, especially when I could support me, my wife, and 2 kids on goddamned 20k a year. Fuck you.

Post by **Cairber** » 2004-07-30 11:22am

All depends on where you live, who you have to support, what your taxes are like, what your school choices are like..are you stuck where you are because your extended cant live without you there too but they wont move. You may have huge medical expenses...medical expenses that 200,000 cant cover with everything else. Every situation is different, so dont tell me fuck you.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-07-30 11:32am

Cairber wrote:All depends on where you live, who you have to support, what your taxes are like, what your school choices are like..are you stuck where you are because your extended cant live without you there too but they wont move. You may have huge medical expenses...medical expenses that 200,000 cant cover with everything else. Every situation is different, so dont tell me fuck you.

No, I absolutely will tell you fuck you. buddy, from down here, 200k is plenty. I don't give a fuck what your bills are. and you got medical insurance if your Dad's a dentist, so again, fuck you. I'm *not* stuck like that anymore, I make way more than 20k now, but i DID support a family on 20k just fine for several years. it wasn't fancy, but I got it done, and I'm more than happy to shell out more cash now that I make more money. I suppose it's kind of hard to appreciate what you got when you've always had it. Let me tell you, I wouldn't know what to goddamned do with 200k a fucking year.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2004-07-30 11:33am

Well, i missed the begining of Kerry's speach because honestly, John Cena was facing Booker T and Luthor Reigns on Smackdown! and i intend to support Kerry anyway so...

I read about it though from more than one source, and i agree with him prety much all the way. Some things make me a bit wearysimply because i've heard it before and i want to see action, but i still am voting Kerry and Edwards. More so, i dont see any problem with him and the military; he won a silver star and three purple hearts, went to 'nam, and almost drowned pulling a guy from a river i think we can trust that he knwos how to properly fund and treat the military, just my opinion. And he did say he intended to improve it, not degrade it, i think he can handle it better than a guy who never even saw combat *coughdubyacough*. As for tax for the wealthy, corporate taxes, and getting hard on polluters, i second the boo fucking hoo.

Post by **Cairber** » 2004-07-30 11:35am

medical insurance doesnt cover everything, especially when you have to support others who dont have it or dont have enough. Just because you had a "harder tear jerker life" doesnt mean you can talk to me that way. Im checking out of these thread and possibly this board. Im sick of the way people treat each other here. People like you make me want to vomit and move outta this country.

Im outty.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-07-30 11:40am

Cairber wrote:medical insurance doesnt cover everything, especially when you have to support others who dont have it or dont have enough. Just because you had a "harder tear jerker life" doesnt mean you can talk to me that way. Im checking out of these thread and possibly this board. Im sick of the way people treat each other here. People like you make me want to vomit and move outta this country.

Im outty.

Quoth Dr. Evil:

"Boo frickity hoo"

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-07-30 11:41am

My parents' combined income is about $150,000 to $160,000/year. They live in a nice house, supported my sister and me through high school, dropped cash for my sister's first year of tuition at the University of Michigan (that's out of state tuition), have three cars and live in a nice neighborhood. As a family, we're nowhere near dire straits, even with Illinois' ludicrous property taxes (which hit us pretty hard, since we have about 3/4 of an acre in suburbia).

Despite the state taxes and Bush fucking over middle class families like mine, we still make it through pretty comfortably. My dad would kill for $200,000/year combined income, even with all the taxes that come with it because he'd be making a lot more money. So I'm not going to shed tears over the poor families who are making a paltry $200,000/year and just barely squeaking by because of the Evil Democrats' Taxation.

If you can't make it on that much annual income, you're managing your money exceedingly poorly.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2004-07-30 11:46am

Forgive me if this seems too forwardand off topic, i know it's probably bad form to say it but you know i didnt want to say anything but i had a feeling she would leave soon when she wanted to know if we were 'nice'. Something about the very idea she wanted to make sure we were 'nice' struck me as extremely odd and i said to me self, "She's headin' out soon. One heated debate and she's gone". I thought the triplet-abortion one would be it but appearantly i was mistaken. I knew it world happen though, somehow. Too bad, she seemed ok, but to each their own.

Post by **Cairber** » 2004-07-30 11:49am

It wasnt just these threads, I dont post in a lot of the debates because I just really like to read more than post. I see people saying 'Fuck you' to each other everywhere..I dunno, that kinda thing gets under my skin. I didnt mean to sit here and bash you guys, I like the board n all, I just get a little weirded out by the way people immediately say fuck you to each other. But maybe i just havent seen the anamosity grow since ive only been here a short time, maybe the people that say that to ech other have been in alot of heated debates. I love the fantasy threads and the relationship ones, its just in other forums people really do seem to cut each others throats with things like Fuck You when i cant understand why

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-07-30 11:51am

Quite frankly Kerry did not say he would raise taxes on that income group. He said he would roll back the tax cuts on that group, tax cuts that are 1-2 years old and were not that extensive to begin with. As someone raising a child and living in one of the most expensive cities in the nation would I like to see more money in my pocket? Of course I would. Do I think the nation can afford it? No.

$200,000 is a reaonable cut off for me to start considering that upper middle class. I would love to see statistics that show just how many Americans fall under this tax bracket. And in the end we're not talking about a lot of money. A couple of hundred dollars will not make or break anyone, and if it is I suggest to you that you may be living beyond your means. And when you factor in health care costs as to why you're 200,000 isn't going as far I say that is NOT a tax issue as teh Republicans would like you to think, that is a health care issue and endemic of what needs to be changed in this country.

We're the richest nation on Earth yet we drag our feet when it comes to helping the less well off and particularly the sick. Health care reform is an absolute neccessity at this point when we're one of the only developed nations that doesn't have some form of national health care I think that says alot.

Post by **Cairber** » 2004-07-30 11:52am

But im sorry for jackin the thread and I didnt mean to make anyone upset, relaly I didnt. I asked if people held grudges because I was trying to figure out why the flaming seemed to happen so fast between certain people in debates. i didnt mean to sound corny or anything.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-07-30 12:00pm

Cairber wrote:But im sorry for jackin the thread and I didnt mean to make anyone upset, relaly I didnt. I asked if people held grudges because I was trying to figure out why the flaming seemed to happen so fast between certain people in debates. i didnt mean to sound corny or anything.

It's a rough and tumble place particularly here in N&P. You should have seen this forum during the Iraq war. Much flames and blood were spilt those days. My suggestion to you is a simple one, you don't have to post in N&P. You don't have to engage in debates, just enjoy the other forums. Its a special kind of poster that revels in asbestos suited flame fests that really flourishes here in some of the more heated topics and I assure you Kerry v. Bush will be such a topic from here on in.

Its not a knock on you, but your sensibilties seemt o indicate to me that you may be better off posting in other forums and avoiding this one, or at least these topics with Kerry if you're uncomfortable with the "Fuck you's" and barrages of insults on a hair trigger. Hell, sometimes I take a break from N&P for a few days or weeks for that very same reason.

But don't leave the board because you don't like the way a particualr forum is run.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-07-30 12:04pm

I'm going to repeat Chardok's "BOO FRICKITY HOO," Cairber. You know what? During pretty much my entire middle and high school years, my dad made about 200k a year for a family of six in a NICE suburb of the Twin Cities.

We had a million-dollar house on a three-acre lot, three cars, two dogs, a vacation EVERY SUMMER, sent all four kids to various summer programs EVERY SUMMER and, a big ski trip every other winter. To say that's anything BUT living in the lap of luxury is a MASSIVE exercise in self-delusion.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2004-07-30 12:35pm

People can find a way to use up any amount of money if they try hard enough. The fact remains that the only way to decrease the burden on people earning $200k or more is to either borrow from the future or shift more of that burden to the other income class, which is ridiculous because if people think it's hard to make ends meet with $200k, how the fuck can people making $50k survive a tax increase?

Let me ask you this, Cairber: do you have some frame of reference besides your daddy's income? Because EVERYBODY always finds a way to convince themselves that it's hard to be them.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-07-30 12:45pm

Besides, isn't all this stuff about the "upper middle class" a red herring? The Bush tax cuts benefited the top few percent of American society. The corporate millions and old-money rich folk, not the entrepenurial businessmen.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-07-30 12:56pm

CJvR wrote:Ridding the US of it's dependency on Mid-east oil is probably fairly easy. Raise the taxes on gasoline to double or tripple the fuel prices.

Since that worked so well in England. Oh, wait, the price-elasticity of demand for gasoline is such that the price barely affects consumption at all, explaining European gasoline habits.

Perhaps a new generation of cars that give miles/gallon rather than gallons/mile will reduce the dependency on foregin oil.

That won't work, either, since it ignores population growth and such.

Naturaly such a promise isn't something you campaign on outside the lunatic green fringe.

Obviously, since it accomplishes absolutely nothing.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-07-30 01:08pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Forgive me if this seems too forwardand off topic, i know it's probably bad form to say it but you know i didnt want to say anything but i had a feeling she would leave soon when she wanted to know if we were 'nice'. Something about the very idea she wanted to make sure we were 'nice' struck me as extremely odd and i said to me self, "She's headin' out soon. One heated debate and she's gone". I thought the triplet-abortion one would be it but appearantly i was mistaken. I knew it world happen though, somehow. Too bad, she seemed ok, but to each their own.

I don't think she's leaving the board, just N&P. She'd hardly be the first to do so.

Admiral Kanos wrote:Let me ask you this, Cairber: do you have some frame of reference besides your daddy's income? Because EVERYBODY always finds a way to convince themselves that it's hard to be them.

If Cairber will forgive my presumptiousness in speaking for her, since she's out of town for the next few days, she does. Her own PERSONAL situation is a lot more tenuous than that of her family (whom I've met). Right now she and her fiancee are living on two part time incomes with no health insurance and a baby on the way, and she's not getting a lot of help from home. This has no bearing on her argument about people in the $200,000 income range (indeed, her situation would seem to CONTRADICT her argument), but she's not unfamiliar with how things are on the low end of the middle class.

As for my own take on the tax debate: I'd much rather have rich people spending their money on boats and plasma TVs (or better yet, stocks and bonds) than coughing it up for Uncle Sam. There's an option besides "borrow like crazy" or "raise taxes" to fund the government that no American politician ever seriously mentions: stop spending like a sailor in the red light district. As long as the government's budget is growing faster than inflation and the economy, eventually you WILL have to raise taxes or borrow more money. But cutting spending is politically unpopular, because cutting spending across the board is the one move that can irritate EVERYONE simultaneously. In the meantime, there's a financial crisis right now, and as much as I'm in favor of tax cuts for everyone, I'm finding it hard to work up too much sympathy for people making four times or more my own family's combined income.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-07-30 01:12pm

CJvR wrote:Ridding the US of it's dependency on Mid-east oil is probably fairly easy. Raise the taxes on gasoline to double or tripple the fuel prices.

Thus utterly fucking people like me who are already forking over considerable portions of our income just to drive back and forth to work in fuel efifcient economy cars, while the sons of bitches getting 10 MPG in their $60,000 H2's can easily afford it. Great plan.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-07-30 01:21pm

RedImperator wrote:As for my own take on the tax debate: I'd much rather have rich people spending their money on boats and plasma TVs (or better yet, stocks and bonds) than coughing it up for Uncle Sam. There's an option besides "borrow like crazy" or "raise taxes" to fund the government that no American politician ever seriously mentions: stop spending like a sailor in the red light district. As long as the government's budget is growing faster than inflation and the economy, eventually you WILL have to raise taxes or borrow more money. But cutting spending is politically unpopular, because cutting spending across the board is the one move that can irritate EVERYONE simultaneously. In the meantime, there's a financial crisis right now, and as much as I'm in favor of tax cuts for everyone, I'm finding it hard to work up too much sympathy for people making four times or more my own family's combined income.

Exactly. I'm sure that everyone here would absolutely love to be given a copy of the federal government's budget along with a red pen, but simple political realities make some of the more costly programs (education, drug-enforcement) basically uncuttable. So the only options are to either raise taxes or borrow. If you raise taxes on the lower and middle income brackets and let the wealthy to continue swimming in wealth, you might stimulate the economy somewhat, but are the poor saps in the lower income bracket, who you're taxing the shit out of, going to feel those effects? No. They'll be too busy trying to pay bills to worry about investing anything.

Granted, some in the middle class may invest anyway because of a stimulated economy, but also remember that you're taxing a good deal of these people's money. You may create an economy where the middle class would normally love to invest, but you've done it by taxing the middle class to the extent that they can make up for the absence of tax revenue from the wealthy. So in this case, where cutting dumb-ass federal programs isn't a practical option, you have to tax the wealthy so that everyone can get by and just hope for some economic growth from the middle class' investments.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-07-30 01:47pm

RedImperator wrote:
CJvR wrote:Ridding the US of it's dependency on Mid-east oil is probably fairly easy. Raise the taxes on gasoline to double or tripple the fuel prices.
Thus utterly fucking people like me who are already forking over considerable portions of our income just to drive back and forth to work in fuel efifcient economy cars, while the sons of bitches getting 10 MPG in their $60,000 H2's can easily afford it. Great plan.

I have often thought of a massive, sweeping and ridiculously expensive plan for the U.S. to get off middle eastern oil dependency. Now, never have I really thought of how to implement it, I don't get paid for that, but check it out:

Hydrogen. Most agree it's the fuel of the future, fuel cells, that is. Offer a trade up. You submit an application to the government, along with your current car, family size, etc. and the government will come and take your car, replacing it with a hydrogen powered car of comparable size. This has a two-fold effect: 1) everyone gets a new car. Neat, huh? but those who are financed through a financial organization are still held to that contract, using the new, government issued car as collateral instead of the gas using car. The gas car is confiscated and scrapped. using the materials scavenged from it to make more hydrogen cars.

Example: a family of 4 has a honda accord. they don't want the gas car anymore, so they submit their application and it is replaced with a 4-door sedan of roughly the same qualities. scrapping the Accord. Additionally, saps like me, with an '87 Subaru, single guy that I am, I get a much smaller car, seating only 2 people. but it's still a new car, right? good on me, I just don't get the uber upgraded version which the family with the accord had. The choice to turn in your car is completely up to you, too. if your car is not financed, well, free new car. I think it would be limited to servicable vehicles, too. no fair turning in a junked 1984 mustang that ain't moved in 6 years for a brand new hydrogen coupe.

The economic impact would be enormous. Think of the stimulus to the auto industry! then, think of the losses, cause now, the guy shopping for a new KIA suddenly stops! SUCKITUDE WITH AWESOMENESS!!!

anyway, I don't have a ton of time to pontificate on the details, but you get the jist of it. it would be ridiculously expensive, but the boon would be enormous as well. effectively fuckyouing the inelasticity of the Oil market.

this obviously wouldn't work for trucks and such, but with so few gasoline powered cars then on the road, we could potentially supply domestically all the oil we need for that /finger to OPEC!!!

Thoughts? Flames? I'll see about writing more tomorrow, since I'm eating up my lunchtime!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-07-30 01:53pm

Charok, I've considered the same on a smaller level(What? I get crazy ideas about helping my new home state..), but it has a huge problem. Hydrogen cells are a net energy loss. While WeeVee produces alot of hydrogen, to keep that industry going in a massive revamp into fuel cell cars would require the construction of several new nuclear plants. There's at least one site in this state waiting to be upgraded into one, but the political problems of nuclear power make it hard.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2004-07-30 01:54pm

Problem: Where the fuck's the hydrogen going to come from?

The editors of Car and Driver proposed a similar idea a while back, except the goal was to reduce air pollution instead of oil use. Under their proposal, anyone with a car that doesn't meed emmision specs would get his car crushed and replaced with one that does.

Graeme Dice · Post by **Graeme Dice** » 2004-07-30 02:02pm

Cairber wrote:Its so easy for people just to say because you make 200,000 you have an easy life. I love it.

Since you can support such a family on ten times less than that, and many people do, then I assume that you aren't suffering too much.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2004-07-30 02:04pm

SirNitram wrote:Charok, I've considered the same on a smaller level(What? I get crazy ideas about helping my new home state..), but it has a huge problem. Hydrogen cells are a net energy loss. While WeeVee produces alot of hydrogen, to keep that industry going in a massive revamp into fuel cell cars would require the construction of several new nuclear plants. There's at least one site in this state waiting to be upgraded into one, but the political problems of nuclear power make it hard.

Well if thst the case, and i were somehow elected president, my gut reaction is screw politics build the damn plants and convert to hydrogen. It'd be political suicide, but when people realize the benefits they'll eventually come around.

Does that sound possible or am i just kidding myself? Cause really, this hydrogen car plan sounds very good to me.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-07-30 02:17pm

18-Till-I-Die wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Charok, I've considered the same on a smaller level(What? I get crazy ideas about helping my new home state..), but it has a huge problem. Hydrogen cells are a net energy loss. While WeeVee produces alot of hydrogen, to keep that industry going in a massive revamp into fuel cell cars would require the construction of several new nuclear plants. There's at least one site in this state waiting to be upgraded into one, but the political problems of nuclear power make it hard.
Well if thst the case, and i were somehow elected president, my gut reaction is screw politics build the damn plants and convert to hydrogen. It'd be political suicide, but when people realize the benefits they'll eventually come around.

There's a limit to how much you can do, even as President. You're not a dictator, after all: you can't tell a state or a community "We're building a nuclear plant HERE, and if you don't like it, you can damn well move". Part of the problem with restarting the nuclear industry is that every new plant will be in court for a decade before they even break ground.

Does that sound possible or am i just kidding myself? Cause really, this hydrogen car plan sounds very good to me.

It would be possible in a dictatorship or a country that hasn't been fed hysterics by the tree huggers for 50 years, but not here and now.

Of course, if all you care about is weaning the US off petroleum, then you could build coal plants to provide the electricity. If you want to reduce emissions, though, the problem is obvious. Not to mention the number of new open pit coal mines you'd need to supply the fuel. 50 years from now, fusion may be the answer, but we're a long way from that stage.