Outbound Flight vs. Dominion

[Shadow]

Sorry, but that happened, again, in a future based on the continuation of the Borg collective, among many other factors.

Show a canon example please, of what Apoc Entertainment has dubbed as the Galaxy-X modification occuring in modern Star Trek, with Transwarp drive being used. Regardless of if it happened or not (I seriously doubt it did) one or two ships is NOT the entire fleet, which is composed of several thousand starships.

The smaller changes in the Galaxy-X have appeared on the Venture, not including the third nacelle. Q probably based the future with Janeway's time travel. If 7 of 9 came back with all of the Voyager's transwarp tech, it probably happen even sooner.

[FireNexus]

The smaller changes in the Galaxy-X have appeared on the Venture , not including the third nacelle. Q probably based the future with Janeway's time travel. If 7 of 9 came back with all of the Voyager's transwarp tech, it probably happen even sooner.

What makes you think Q would base it on janeway's future? Furthermore, what makes you think Q created that future? Perhaps it was a real future(at that point) that Q simply showed. Numerous changes occurred making that future not likely to happen.

And, by the way, "Voyager's transwarp tech" was all burned out, and rendered useless. It wouldn't at all negate the massive cost of refitting every federation starship, as well as including it in new ships, when all shipbuilding facilities are designed to construct warp-drive ships.

Also, just because a ship has certain similarities to the Galaxy-X retrofit doesn't make it exactly the same, or mean it IS a Galaxy-X. That is, frankly, quite a jump in logic.


(Darth Wong, eat your heart out. )

[Shadow]

What makes you think Q would base it on janeway's future? Furthermore, what makes you think Q created that future? Perhaps it was a real future(at that point) that Q simply showed. Numerous changes occurred making that future not likely to happen.

Q would see the changes by Janeway because he can travel to any time.

And, by the way, "Voyager's transwarp tech" was all burned out, and rendered useless. It wouldn't at all negate the massive cost of refitting every federation starship, as well as including it in new ships, when all shipbuilding facilities are designed to construct warp-drive ships.

Transwarp is similiar to warp drive. Voyager also had alot of information, plus 7 of 9, which would greatly speed up the process.

Also, just because a ship has certain similarities to the Galaxy-X retrofit doesn't make it exactly the same, or mean it IS a Galaxy-X. That is, frankly, quite a jump in logic.

It shows that Q's future is beginning to come true.[/quote]

[FireNexus]

Q would see the changes by Janeway because he can travel to any time.

Yes, but Q can’t necessarily perceive any change which could possibly occur within time. And in ST, these changes are ridiculously easy to make. None of the ships in Q’s future used the armor or transphasic torpedoes you love so much, now did they?

Transwarp is similiar to warp drive. Voyager also had alot of information, plus 7 of 9, which would greatly speed up the process.

Based on what? Nowhere is it said that transwarp is similar to warp. In fact, transwarp is entirely dissimilar. You actually have to leave space and enter an extraspacial tunnel to use it. Though Voyager’s warp core could try it’s luck at entering transwarp, they didn’t do very well, and actually had to eject the core because it destabilized to the point of danger.

Remember that this was with 7 of 9’s knowledge. In fact, it was BECAUSE OF her knowledge. Anyway, they already had Picard’s knowledge of borg tech, which would be on par with 7 of 9’s. Still, they didn’t make the switch to transwarp, even given several years with which to do it.

"Also, just because a ship has certain similarities to the Galaxy-X retrofit doesn't make it exactly the same, or mean it IS a Galaxy-X. That is, frankly, quite a jump in logic. "

It shows that Q's future is beginning to come true.

It shows nothing of the sort. It shows that CERTAIN technological advances which occurred in what you refer to as “Q’s future” occurred. Again, this isn’t a future designed specifically by Q. And, federation development would still occur, simply because the enhancements in the Galaxy-X class could’ve been in development for many years.

You have zero argument. Just like when you argued with the Darth himself, you can’t construct an intelligent argument with given facts. You rely on common speculation (I am a trekkie, and I know the speculatuion) that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

[IDMR]

To Shadow:

Go here, refute Wong's arguements with regards to the transwarp conduit network, and then talk. I would list the relevant bits, but I am busy right now. Perhaps I shall, later.

Answer this, Shadow, or shut up.

[IDMR]

Q would see the changes by Janeway because he can travel to any time.

Q could, if he is indeed omnipotent, although his demostrated capability by no means suggest such a thing.

Assuming that he is, however, it is still a leap in logic to assume that the two futures are one and the same simply because Q could have seen it. If he were omnipotent, he could have seen any number of possible outcomes - the one where the Borg overwhelmed the Alpha Quadrant, for instance.

Transwarp is similiar to warp drive. Voyager also had alot of information, plus 7 of 9, which would greatly speed up the process.

Do you have any evidence to support that this automatically translates to the capability to build and maintain, let alone mass produce, the system within a reasonable span of time? Even if it could, how would it interface with current technology? There is more to technology than simply grab an example and reverse-engineer it.

It shows that Q's future is beginning to come true.

It shows nothing of the sort. It might demostrate a degree of convergence, but as anybody with even the slightest knowledge of complex system can attest, covergence are bound to occur especially when the point of divergence is so close.

[David]

Voyager really made me sick. Dispite the fact that they had a crew of a few hundred, they were constantly comming up with tech wayyyyyyy aheld of the rest of the galaxy. Slipstream drive for example.

[Shadow]

To Shadow:

Go here, refute Wong's arguements with regards to the transwarp conduit network, and then talk. I would list the relevant bits, but I am busy right now. Perhaps I shall, later.

It seems to say that transwarp are not natural phenomena. I never said they were.

Yes, but Q can’t necessarily perceive any change which could possibly occur within time. And in ST, these changes are ridiculously easy to make. None of the ships in Q’s future used the armor or transphasic torpedoes you love so much, now did they?

They never used torpedoes, and the armor may have been there, but it was built in.
Based on what? Nowhere is it said that transwarp is similar to warp. In fact, transwarp is entirely dissimilar. You actually have to leave space and enter an extraspacial tunnel to use it. Though Voyager’s warp core could try it’s luck at entering transwarp, they didn’t do very well, and actually had to eject the core because it destabilized to the point of danger.

Remember that this was with 7 of 9’s knowledge. In fact, it was BECAUSE OF her knowledge. Anyway, they already had Picard’s knowledge of borg tech, which would be on par with 7 of 9’s. Still, they didn’t make the switch to transwarp, even given several years with which to do it.

They could redesign the ship to use transwarp. Voyager did not have the ability to make a new ship that transwarp would not fail on.
It shows nothing of the sort. It shows that CERTAIN technological advances which occurred in what you refer to as “Q’s future” occurred. Again, this isn’t a future designed specifically by Q. And, federation development would still occur, simply because the enhancements in the Galaxy-X class could’ve been in development for many years.

You have zero argument. Just like when you argued with the Darth himself, you can’t construct an intelligent argument with given facts. You rely on common speculation (I am a trekkie, and I know the speculatuion) that doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

Picard had to be fooled by this future, if it really was fake. If it was unlikely for transwarp to come in 20 years. Anyway, transwarp will be developed by the 29th century, or something faster, at least.
Q could , if he is indeed omnipotent, although his demostrated capability by no means suggest such a thing.

Assuming that he is, however, it is still a leap in logic to assume that the two futures are one and the same simply because Q could have seen it. If he were omnipotent, he could have seen any number of possible outcomes - the one where the Borg overwhelmed the Alpha Quadrant, for instance.

That future doesn't necessarily need to be true. What future the Borg overwhelm the Alpha Quadrant?

Do you have any evidence to support that this automatically translates to the capability to build and maintain, let alone mass produce, the system within a reasonable span of time? Even if it could, how would it interface with current technology? There is more to technology than simply grab an example and reverse-engineer it.

Transwarp is similiar to warp drive, or at least as similiar as Quantum Slipstream, which was built by Voyager. It would have worked but Voyager needed calculations because of its size. No calculations are necessary for transwarp.

It shows nothing of the sort. It might demostrate a degree of convergence, but as anybody with even the slightest knowledge of complex system can attest, covergence are bound to occur especially when the point of divergence is so close.

If this convergence happened, why wouldn't transwarp happen, too?

[FireNexus]

The voyager's crew was given plenty of oppurtunity to study the quantum slipstream drive system, and was even given detailed information as to it's workings, construction, and maintainment. The whole engineering department. Even with this, they NEVER got it to work properly.

In fact, in the original timeline, Voyager was destroyed because they couldn't properly use Slipstream. This sounds VERY similar to their problems with transwarp drive, with the exception of being able to actually get into slipstream. They couldn't navigate, or maintain the system for a very long time.

Voyager never managed to get either Transwarp OR Slipstream to work properly. Regardless of whether or not they did, you still never address the fact that the cost of refitting the entire fleet would be massive, considering that the federation wouldn't jury rig their systems from existing parts. They use backups and double backups as a habit. GTG, continue this later.

[Shadow]

The voyager's crew was given plenty of oppurtunity to study the quantum slipstream drive system, and was even given detailed information as to it's workings, construction, and maintainment. The whole engineering department. Even with this, they NEVER got it to work properly.

The Delta Flyer got back to the Alpha Quadrant with it, and they were able to return 15 years later. Similiar information about transwarp would available from 7 of 9, and all the transwarp technology and data Voyager has.

In fact, in the original timeline, Voyager was destroyed because they couldn't properly use Slipstream. This sounds VERY similar to their problems with transwarp drive, with the exception of being able to actually get into slipstream. They couldn't navigate, or maintain the system for a very long time.

The Delta Flyer got back to the Alpha Quadrant with it, and they were able to return 15 years later. This was because Voyager got the calculations wrong, not because they couldn't maintain it.

Voyager never managed to get either Transwarp OR Slipstream to work properly. Regardless of whether or not they did, you still never address the fact that the cost of refitting the entire fleet would be massive, considering that the federation wouldn't jury rig their systems from existing parts. They use backups and double backups as a habit. GTG, continue this later.

Why would they need to refit the fleet? They could just build all new ships with it.

[FireNexus]

The Delta Flyer got back to the Alpha Quadrant with it, and they were able to return 15 years later.

In case you remember, it was Voyager's size that made it so difficult for Voyager to calculate course in slipstream correctly. There is no canon evidence that this flaw was ever repaired.

Why would they need to refit the fleet? They could just build all new ships with it.

By far the stupidest thing you've said yet. The federation would, in this scenario, have to phase out it's entire fleet, since most of it's ships would become effectively useless for it's purpose of exploration, and build all new ships with slipstream drive. This doesn't negate the cost of refitting, IT MAKES THE COST LARGER!

Try again...

[Shadow]

In case you remember, it was Voyager's size that made it so difficult for Voyager to calculate course in slipstream correctly. There is no canon evidence that this flaw was ever repaired.

There is no canon evidence that it could not be repaired, and you are also forgeting transwarp.

By far the stupidest thing you've said yet. The federation would, in this scenario, have to phase out it's entire fleet, since most of it's ships would become effectively useless for it's purpose of exploration, and build all new ships with slipstream drive. This doesn't negate the cost of refitting, IT MAKES THE COST LARGER!

They seemed to be able manage the cost in all futures.

[IDMR]

It seems to say that transwarp are not natural phenomena. I never said they were.

Read it again. Read it carefully. Actually, just learn to read.

That future doesn't necessarily need to be true. What future the Borg overwhelm the Alpha Quadrant?

Oh, so now you are saying the future need not be true when it is convenient?

Concession accepted.

Oh, it is Season 7, Ep# 163: "Parallels".

Transwarp is similiar to warp drive, or at least as similiar as Quantum Slipstream, which was built by Voyager. It would have worked but Voyager needed calculations because of its size. No calculations are necessary for transwarp.

This is not evidence to support your claim that transwarp can be incorporated into fedederation infrastructure within a reasonable length of time. This is waffling on when asked to provide proof.

Concession accepted.

If this convergence happened, why wouldn't transwarp happen, too?

It could, so could any number of possible futures. Go ahead and learn some elementary mathematics. Just because something could happen doesn't mean it would. I could win the throw up a hatpin and cause a typhoon, doesn't mean it's either likely or plausible.

[Shadow]

Read it again. Read it carefully. Actually, just learn to read.

I'm not going to try figure out what you're talking about. What is it in here that I should see?

Oh, so now you are saying the future need not be true when it is convenient?

Concession accepted.

Oh, it is Season 7, Ep# 163: "Parallels".

No, the future needs to be plausible, not true. Developing transwarp was plausible because picard was not fooled. Why would Q pick an alternate reality? I thought you might actually be referring to something that Q would do.

This is not evidence to support your claim that transwarp can be incorporated into fedederation infrastructure within a reasonable length of time. This is waffling on when asked to provide proof.

All futures are canon proof that the federation is capable of this.

It could, so could any number of possible futures. Go ahead and learn some elementary mathematics. Just because something could happen doesn't mean it would. I could win the throw up a hatpin and cause a typhoon, doesn't mean it's either likely or plausible.

This convergence is not required for the federation to get transwarp.

[IDMR]

No, the future needs to be plausible, not true. Developing transwarp was plausible because picard was not fooled. Why would Q pick an alternate reality? I thought you might actually be referring to something that Q would do.

Red herring. Just because Q was not responsible for a timeline does not mean it is less plausible or likely.

All futures are canon proof that the federation is capable of this.

Cannon proof!? It is nothing of the sort. It shows that in a timeline visited by Q the federation apparently has something with warp 13 (note that no where did it say it was transwarp or slipstream). It implies that in some point in the future amidst the myriad timelines, there is one in which the UFP has something with warp 13. It does not automatically translate into what you seem to hope it does.

This convergence is not required for the federation to get transwarp.

You do realise you just refuted your own point, right? Concergence is a concept I brought up to describe what you feel as proof that the federation would one day have the Galaxy-X. It is not a matter of whether it's required or not, but that it actually helps your position! Sheesh, young people nowadays, you try to help them...

[FireNexus]

There is no canon evidence that it could not be repaired, and you are also forgeting transwarp.

I never said it couldn't be repaired, I said it wasn't. Anyway, transwarp STILL does not negate the extreme cost of making the switch.

They seemed to be able manage the cost in all futures.

First of all, "Q's future" never mentioned transwarp. Second of all, no future ever said that all, most, or even many federation ships used transwarp. So there's no proof that they ever managed the cost.

Also, in the original Janeway future, making the assumption that the switch was made on a wide scale, it was driven by a need to defend from the Borg. Since that need is effectively gone after "endgame", the federation might not have been so willing to eat the cost.

That's assuming they converted the entire fleet, which there is no proof of at all.

[Steve]

The Federation seems to be close to transwarp, which is faster than hyperdrive.

Proof required.

In "All Good Things..." they could apparently use transwarp based on warp 13.

Or they rewrote the warp scale again.

"Endgame" had Admiral Janeway making it to the Delta Quadrant right away, requiring transwarp.

Define time span of "right away". Minutes? Hours? A day? Days? Was the ship going at flank speed or cruise speed?

[Steve]

The Delta Flyer got back to the Alpha Quadrant with it, and they were able to return 15 years later. Similiar information about transwarp would available from 7 of 9, and all the transwarp technology and data Voyager has.

They didn't "return" via the slipstream, Voyager came out of slipstream out of control at the edge of the Beta Quadrant.

The Delta Flyer got back to the Alpha Quadrant with it, and they were able to return 15 years later.

Because they got to go point and didn't face the same problems Voyager did. Doesn't mean the tech is immediately stable and viable.

And no, they did not return fifteen years later with it.

This was because Voyager got the calculations wrong, not because they couldn't maintain it.

Umm..... okay. They couldn't maintain it, but they got the calculations to use it wrong, which meant... they couldn't maintain it properly, and it ended up hurling them into a really cold planet where they all died. You don't see a problem here?

Why would they need to refit the fleet? They could just build all new ships with it.

And you are aware of how much it would cost to replace your entire fleet with new ships in a short span of time? Maybe over a couple of decades at the least, but unless you want to go into war-time shipyard production it's a helluva lot smarter to just do refits; if you can't, then you decide if you want to have a fleet with older ships of one drive system and newer and fewer ships with another one, and all the deployment, formation, and logistics concerns that can create.

[DG_Cal_Wright]

Robert Tredar gave a link on Wong's site about travel times in the Star Wars Universe. According to the chart from the behind the magic cd it takes twenty two days to travel from Coruscant to Tatooine. First off, while this is far faster than Star Trek, it is beyond too slow for Star Wars. Using two things, we can determine the size of the Star Wars galaxy. In the Phantom Menace Visual Dictionary there is a map with a distance bar. Tatooine is on the very edge of the galaxy and Coruscant is on the opposite side of the Core. Now, according to this map, that distance is 60,000 light years. Also the total distance is 120,000 light years. In the BFC trilogy Lando recites that scientists have measured the Star Wars galaxy to be 120,000 light years across. With the BtM cd chart it would have taken Darth Maul twenty two days to arrive on Tatooine after locating the Jedi and the Queen. Even though when he was to leave it and when he arrived it was just dusk of the day of the Boonta Eve. Now you can say that we cannot determine the total time of night and day for Tatooine, but it is a double sun system, so it cannot possibly stay dark that long. There's my ramble. *S*

[Robert Treder]

Unless our versions of the TPM VD are different, there's no map of the galaxy in that book...but there is a map of the galaxy in the Inside the Worlds of Star Wars Episode I book. It oddly states that the galaxy is approximately 100,000 ly across. But it does indicate a distance of 60,000 ly between Coruscant and Tatooine.

On the BtM CD chart, it lists a time of 22d between Coruscant and Tatooine, but 4h between Coruscant and Corellia and 4h between Corellia and Tatooine. That (or something similar) is probably the route taken by Mr. Maul.

[Crayz9000]

I agree that they couldn't give hyperdrive to anyone, at least not fast enough to change war. However, I disagree that hyperdrive is a "quantum leap" beyond warp drive.

What I mean is that hyperspace technology, as it is known in the SW universe, uses a radically different approach to superluminal propulsion compared to the methods in Star Trek. In Star Trek, everything--including transwarp--is subspace based. Hyperspace uses a different phenomenon, which hasn't been explained yet in detail (although Curtis Saxton's done a good job of theorizing it).

Then there's the problem of mechanics. In Star Wars, your average ship mechanic couldn't build a hyperdrive from scratch; it's a finely tuned piece of machinery that requires specialized equipment to create. (Consider the work that goes into making a "simple" silicon microprocessor.)

It definately couldn't be retrofitted onto a warp core unless you had dedicated research and development facilities available. If you want a moden-day example, I wouldn't dream of trying to make a PPC G4 chip work in an x86 motherboard or vice versa without the proper facilities.

The Federation seems to be close to transwarp, which is faster than hyperdrive. In "All Good Things..." they could apparently use transwarp based on warp 13. "Endgame" had Admiral Janeway making it to the Delta Quadrant right away, requiring transwarp.

Again, that's a different technology. Take your basic quantum slipstream, for example-- Seven once said that it was like a slightly more primitive version of Borg transwarp. Its speed was approximately 60 ly/hr (mathematical calculation from VOY "Hope and Fear"). Contrast with hyperdrive speeds as given in Heir to the Empire, 127 LY/hr for ".5 past lightspeed."

I'm not saying that transwarp may be slower in all cases. It does pretty well for what it does. But the only people who have successfully gotten working transwarp are the Borg--Voyager's one-shot-experiments notwithstanding. "All Good Things" was an alternate reality; anyway, it was suggested that they recalibrated the warp scale in that reality.

At any rate, in my original post I wasn't referring to transwarp, slipstream, etc. I was referring to plain vanilla warp drive as employed by the Federation as of ST:9.

[Crayz9000]

The Federation seems to be close to transwarp, which is faster than hyperdrive.

Proof required.

Uh, excuse me, I didn't write that.

[Crayz9000]

::grins::

You do not happen to require an... editor, do you?

Maybe, maybe not. Why don't you check http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/stories/inta.txt and let me know what you think?

And a bulk cruiser full of jedi would be ISD Eliminator reversed...

What do you mean, reversed? According to the ICS, a Federation SCS isn't even a match for a Bulk Cruiser but I can kind of get around that in a fanfic.

[IDMR]

Maybe, maybe not. Why don't you check http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/stories/inta.txt and let me know what you think?

I shall.

What do you mean, reversed? According to the ICS, a Federation SCS isn't even a match for a Bulk Cruiser but I can kind of get around that in a fanfic.

I mean Jedi Masters probably won't go around killing people for fun and profit.

Unless they become Sith masters...

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Heh heh, I just left this forum for a few days, and now Shadow got fucked by almost everyone...

I agree that they couldn't give hyperdrive to anyone, at least not fast enough to change war. However, I disagree that hyperdrive is a "quantum leap" beyond warp drive. The Federation seems to be close to transwarp, which is faster than hyperdrive. In "All Good Things..." they could apparently use transwarp based on warp 13. "Endgame" had Admiral Janeway making it to the Delta Quadrant right away, requiring transwarp.

Shadow, you just can't make unsupported claims and expect everbody runs around to disprove your statement. PROOF that hyperdrive is NOT a "quantum leap" beyond warp drive, in terms of performance, or mechanism, or both. Otherwise just shuddup.

Also, your mentioned "All Good Things..." and "Endgame". Are those kind of transwarp mass-produced? Are they available to Feds ships, particularly during Dominion War? Do they represent the mainstream of Feds technology?

BTW, IF (and it's one hell of IF) your trollish "transwarp is faster than hyperdrive" argument is true, why should the Feds bother about the Wormhole at all?

PS: I stand corrected. You CAN make such unsupported claims, but face the consequences.[/quote]