Dreanaught vs ISD

[Alyeska]

The concept of the VSD itself wasn't forgotten by the New Republic either. They more then willingly used VSDs in great success. The Imperial Remnant also appears to still build them judging by their number in the NJO. Its a cost effective battle platform.

Now taking the idea of the VSD to mind, the Bothans built a new series of cruisers designed almost purely for ship to ship combat and the likes. They were rated at roughly the same capability as a VSD but were 25% smaller in size.

[Captain Cyran]

You know Galvie, this is the second time I've tried to make reading what I write easy on you guys, I think you've caught me on it both times.

Your consistent and bizarre use of italics is both unique and distinctive. It also makes what you say look more profound, as if you're quoting some great philosopher. I salute your eccentricities.

While unique and distinctive I also think that it makes what I type rather hard to read and most don't bother reading it when I get into serious conversations.

I think the problem the VSD had was that although it was a good ship, when the ISD was created the VSD was so outdone by the ISD that it was no longer really produced. And the massive amount of money the Empire was putting into the military meant that they weren't going to bother with a VSD when an ISD can be made.

For the stalwart EU defenders I shall now make mention of the fact that it was suggested in Darksaber that High Admiral Teradoc built a large fleet of new VSDs for some reason. Anyone remember the rationale for this (other than "KJA's a boob!")?

I never read DarkSaber so I really don't know why they'd want to create a fleet of VSD's, they're great for defense and offense on the planetary scale but all in all the ISD's are better. (Ok, since I can't use "KJA's a boob!" how about "KJA's a dipshit who has more talent coming out of his ass then his fingers.")

It makes sense that the Remnant would start using more and more VSD's as they are not only less costly but seem to be better at Planetary defense, and as that's all the Remnant began to really worry about rather then taking on the New Republic and getting ass-raped again.

[Galvatron]

(Ok, since I can't use "KJA's a boob!" how about "KJA's a dipshit who has more talent coming out of his ass then his fingers.")

Actually, I heard KJA dictates his sludge into a microphone and someone else types it up for him later.

[Rogue 9]

Teradoc liked swarm tactics, lots of smaller ships instead of a few big ones. That way the loss of a ship didn't hurt him so much, and since they were VSDs, its not like they'd be dropping like flies.

[Captain Cyran]

Teradoc liked swarm tactics, lots of smaller ships instead of a few big ones. That way the loss of a ship didn't hurt him so much, and since they were VSDs, its not like they'd be dropping like flies.

That makes no sense. One of the main reasons they stopped producing VSD's is because they were so slow almost any newer ship could easily outpace them. Even if you have more ships, if the ships they are going up against are faster your swarm isn't going to be nearly effective.

[Vohu Manah]

The VSD-1 was capable of landing on a planet. It was the VSD-2 that was restricted to upper atmosphere flight.

[Rogue 9]

Teradoc liked swarm tactics, lots of smaller ships instead of a few big ones. That way the loss of a ship didn't hurt him so much, and since they were VSDs, its not like they'd be dropping like flies.

That makes no sense. One of the main reasons they stopped producing VSD's is because they were so slow almost any newer ship could easily outpace them. Even if you have more ships, if the ships they are going up against are faster your swarm isn't going to be nearly effective.

*Shrug* That was the reason KJA gave. Of course, now that you've forced the issue by pointing out the flaw, we now have no choice but to resort to calling him a boob. Great going, chief.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The VSD-1 was capable of landing on a planet. It was the VSD-2 that was restricted to upper atmosphere flight.

What the hell? Since when?

Everything I've seen says that neither could land...

[Rogue 9]

The VSD-1 was capable of landing on a planet. It was the VSD-2 that was restricted to upper atmosphere flight.

What the hell? Since when?

Everything I've seen says that neither could land...

Is this some newbie confusing the Acclamators with a VSD 1 again? My brother insisted on that for the longest time. Not sure if he still does or not; gave up on arguing with him.

[Vohu Manah]

I apparently was, I swore I read that somewhere.

[FTeik]

In "The New Rebellion" we see VicStars take of from the surface of a planet.

The Victory-II was built with better sublight-acceleration, but lacked the missile-tubes. It was better suited for space-battles than planetary invasion or bombardement.

[Alyeska]

In "The New Rebellion" we see VicStars take of from the surface of a planet.

The Victory-II was built with better sublight-acceleration, but lacked the missile-tubes. It was better suited for space-battles than planetary invasion or bombardement.

Though interestingly enough the missile tubes gives the VSD-1 superior first strike capabilities.

[Admiral_K]

You know Galvie, this is the second time I've tried to make reading what I write easy on you guys, I think you've caught me on it both times.

Your consistent and bizarre use of italics is both unique and distinctive. It also makes what you say look more profound, as if you're quoting some great philosopher. I salute your eccentricities.

I think the problem the VSD had was that although it was a good ship, when the ISD was created the VSD was so outdone by the ISD that it was no longer really produced. And the massive amount of money the Empire was putting into the military meant that they weren't going to bother with a VSD when an ISD can be made.

For the stalwart EU defenders I shall now make mention of the fact that (IIRC) it was suggested in Darksaber that High Admiral Teradoc built a large fleet of new VSDs for some reason. Anyone remember the rationale for this (other than "KJA's a boob!")?

While given relatively unlimited resources, you'd want the ISD. On theother hand, I would think that the rationale would be that since VSDs were smaller, you could deploy more of them, thus covering a wider area than if you just built ISD's with an equivalent amount of resources.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Han Solo's Revenge

She was an Espo destroyer of the old Victory class, close to a kilometer long, an armored space-going fortress…

The slaver offered no further resistance. She was drawn into the gaping boarding lock in the destroyer's underbelly…

Since the slaver was already occupying the destroyer's boarding lock, the Falcon was eased down toward the ground, the vast bulk of the battlewagon settling in over her, blocking out the sky…

The Espo craft descended until it was no more than fifty meters above the grounded Falcon. By leaning forward in the cockpit, Han could see the captive slaver ship. A boarding tube, no doubt packed with combat-armored Espo assault troops, was extending itself and fastening to the slaver's main lock…

From another lock in the destroyer a safety cage appeared, lowered by a utility tractor beam, coming down slowly and silently. The safety cage was a circular, basketlike affair with high guardrails and an overhead sling for hoist work. Within the cage, where Han would have expected a flock of trigger-happy Espos, there was only the man who had given the instructions over the commo a few moments before.

It's pretty clear that whether or not a VSD (in this case probably a VSD-1) can physically land, it can operate effectively in an atmosphere and can hover for extended periods at an altitude (less than sixty meters) more appropriate to a helicopter.

[Galvatron]

IIRC, in one of the JAT books a group of VSDs were seen blasting off from the surface of some Imperial planet in the Deep Core when Kyp Durron destroyed their sun.

[phongn]

In "The New Rebellion" we see VicStars take of from the surface of a planet.

The Victory-II was built with better sublight-acceleration, but lacked the missile-tubes. It was better suited for space-battles than planetary invasion or bombardement.

Though interestingly enough the missile tubes gives the VSD-1 superior first strike capabilities.

IIRC, Andras gamed out an Assault Frigate (NR-version) vs. a VSD1 using the old WEG rules and determined that the concussion missiles weren't that useful in space combat against more modern ships. Coupled with the dedicated CIWS emplacements that began appearing on various ships and the missile silos might not have been worth it.

[Alyeska]

In "The New Rebellion" we see VicStars take of from the surface of a planet.

The Victory-II was built with better sublight-acceleration, but lacked the missile-tubes. It was better suited for space-battles than planetary invasion or bombardement.

Though interestingly enough the missile tubes gives the VSD-1 superior first strike capabilities.

IIRC, Andras gamed out an Assault Frigate (NR-version) vs. a VSD1 using the old WEG rules and determined that the concussion missiles weren't that useful in space combat against more modern ships. Coupled with the dedicated CIWS emplacements that began appearing on various ships and the missile silos might not have been worth it.

Isard's Revenge says otherwise. A single salvo from a VSD-I is capable of knocking out one shield aspect of an ISD-II. This is fairly impressive firepower.

IMO the best combination is an improved VSD-I with better engines along side a VSD-II. You have powerful first strike capabilities with the missile launchers as well as the main guns on the VSD-II to follow through.

The power of the VSD-I was still shown even in the NJO era when the massive missile barrages could hit Vong ships.

[Galvatron]

I imagine VSDs would also be fairly useful for planetary pacification. They could hover over a city like a V or ID4 mothership and scare the populace into submission.

[Robert Treder]

The Ghorman Massacre (ref. WEG Rebellion Sourcebook and The Farlander Papers) occurred when protesters (I believe they had some tax-related grievances) on the planet Ghorman refused to disperse. When repeated warnings failed to disperse the crowd, Wilhuff Tarkin ordered his Victory-class destroyer to land on the crowd, crushing thousands.

[FTeik]

Wasn´t it a Carrack-Cruiser Tarkin used to "pacify" those demonstrators at Ghorman?

IIRC, according to ENGVV cap-ship-torpedos and missiles are better suited for planetary bombardement, than ship-against-ship-battle. Not that i doubt novels like IR or the NJO, but it would be nice, if LFL and the people writing for it could make up their mind.

Otherwise one has to wonder, why ISDs don´t have missile-tubes.

[Crazedwraith]

Wasn´t it a Carrack-Cruiser Tarkin used to "pacify" those demonstrators at Ghorman?

IIRC, according to ENGVV cap-ship-torpedos and missiles are better suited for planetary bombardement, than ship-against-ship-battle. Not that i doubt novels like IR or the NJO, but it would be nice, if LFL and the people writing for it could make up their mind.

Otherwise one has to wonder, why ISDs don´t have missile-tubes.

They do, or at least Remanant era ISDs have. I think the OTISCs had the ISD with forward missle tubes as well. (Altohugh i may be mistaken)

[phongn]

Isard's Revenge says otherwise. A single salvo from a VSD-I is capable of knocking out one shield aspect of an ISD-II. This is fairly impressive firepower.

Yes, it is, but what happens if those missiles are shot down en route? You can't stop a turbolaser en route.

IMO the best combination is an improved VSD-I with better engines along side a VSD-II. You have powerful first strike capabilities with the missile launchers as well as the main guns on the VSD-II to follow through.

Volume constraints might prevent you from mounting both the missile silos and the heavy guns of the VSD2. Naval design is full of compromises.

[Alyeska]

Yes, it is, but what happens if those missiles are shot down en route? You can't stop a turbolaser en route.

While missile interception technology has improved in SW, I've not seen enough improvement to make guided missile ships become worthless. If anything the continued use of the VSD-I in the NJO era proves its worth.

Volume constraints might prevent you from mounting both the missile silos and the heavy guns of the VSD2. Naval design is full of compromises.

I never said that. I said pair up an upgraded VSD-I with a VSD-II.

[phongn]

While missile interception technology has improved in SW, I've not seen enough improvement to make guided missile ships become worthless. If anything the continued use of the VSD-I in the NJO era proves its worth.

SOTP strongly implied that missiles can be fairly easily knocked down -- at least for a GFFA ship vs. a GFFA ship. A YV vs GFFA confrontation works differently, esp. as the YV don't appear to have dedicated antimissile defenses.

I never said that. I said pair up an upgraded VSD-I with a VSD-II.

Misread you, though I also wonder if there are other constraints preventing the VSD-I from receiving the upgraded engines that were fitted to the VSD-II.

[Connor MacLeod]

Three is sufficent. While the three in Dark Force Rising were having trouble against a single ISD, this is not unexpected. Three is suficent to destroy an ISD, though you will loose one or even two Dreadnaughts in the process. Five is ideal for taking out an ISD without any losses.

Three Dreadnaughts (3 of Bel Iblis' Dark Forcec dreadnaughts.) managed to hold off a Star Destroyer using only ion cannons (maybe for a few minutes), but did not defeat one. DFR even says they would be "hard pressed" to overcome the ship.

Moreover, when fighting over the remnants of the Dark Force at the end of the book (against the Judicator), he brought all 6 and did not readily subdue the ISD.. and when the Peremptory arrived, it was indicated that the odds had shifted again (at best, maybe even.. more like in favor of the Imperials, had it not been for the desperation tactic of ramming the Peremptory.) And again, it was largely with ion cannons that Bel Iblis was making progress, if any. Whether ion cannons are standard complement aboard a Dreadnaught is anyone's guess, though.

I consider it debatable whether 5-6 dreadnaughts, or even 3 dreadnaughts, can really match up with an ISD in a stand-up fight.