Rebunking "Die Is Cast"

[T-1000]

Anyone know where I can find some calculations regarding "Die Is Cast" episode and the supposed power of the phasers that were bombarding the Dominion planet?

[Praxis]

They were pathetic. I saw the episode. Nothing but a big atmospheric disturbance. Maybe as powerful as a big nuke?

I'd have expected more damage from an antimatter weapon than just a big dust cloud.

[Stofsk]

They were pathetic. I saw the episode. Nothing but a big atmospheric disturbance. Maybe as powerful as a big nuke?

I'd have expected more damage from an antimatter weapon than just a big dust cloud.

That fleet was infiltrated to begin with by the Changelings. There was at least one there. Given the sort of mischief ONE changeling can do to a crew of a warship who's AWARE of it's presence and actively hunting it down (DS9's "The Adversary") who knows a) how many Changelings had infiltrated that fleet and b) what they did to fuck around with the ships, given NO-ONE was aware of the infiltration.

Given it was intended to be a trap with the Jem'Hadar attackers laying in wait, I wonder if it's inconceivable to suggest a possible Changeling infiltration team purposely sabotaging (or 'weakening') the fleet's defensive/offensive capabilities?

[Vohu Manah]

Given it was intended to be a trap with the Jem'Hadar attackers laying in wait, I wonder if it's inconceivable to suggest a possible Changeling infiltration team purposely sabotaging (or 'weakening') the fleet's defensive/offensive capabilities?

I expect nothing less from any competent combatant. Like you stated, there was at least one changeling infiltrator. And if I recall the quote correctly, it took only four on Earth to cause problems globally (not including the stuff Starfleet was doing to itself).

[Stofsk]

I expect nothing less from any competent combatant. Like you stated, there was at least one changeling infiltrator. And if I recall the quote correctly, it took only four on Earth to cause problems globally (not including the stuff Starfleet was doing to itself).

Quote from "Paradise Lost" season 4. A changeling disguised as O'Brien said that there was only 4 Changelings on Earth causing so much chaos. The problem is: he has every reason to lie (psychologically demoralising for SFC to be vulnerable to so few changelings) and every reason not to be believed (would you believe someone from AQ telling you they're back to 'full strength' and preparing a 'major offensive' or something?).

Though that's a good quote you pointed out, I would put it down as secondary. "The Adversary" is more relevant to what I was saying. A single Changeling could disable standard Starfleet security measures, lock the computer out and if it weren't for Odo there would have been nothing the crew could have done - except self-destruct.

Given no-one suspected the ROMULAN COMMANDER was an infiltrator, there's no telling what he could have done. Just by himself, but there might have been more.

[Chris OFarrell]

They were pathetic. I saw the episode. Nothing but a big atmospheric disturbance. Maybe as powerful as a big nuke?

I'd have expected more damage from an antimatter weapon than just a big dust cloud.

That fleet was infiltrated to begin with by the Changelings. There was at least one there. Given the sort of mischief ONE changeling can do to a crew of a warship who's AWARE of it's presence and actively hunting it down (DS9's "The Adversary") who knows a) how many Changelings had infiltrated that fleet and b) what they did to fuck around with the ships, given NO-ONE was aware of the infiltration.

Given it was intended to be a trap with the Jem'Hadar attackers laying in wait, I wonder if it's inconceivable to suggest a possible Changeling infiltration team purposely sabotaging (or 'weakening') the fleet's defensive/offensive capabilities?

Yes it is. Changelings don't WORK in large numbers. On Earth itself they only had SEVEN operatives to cover to entire planet and center of the Federation command and control systems. On DS9 to make sure Sisko did not close the wormhole and keep the Dominion out they only had a single operative.

Further, its extreemly dangerous to screw with the weapons systems like your suggesting. Such sabotage across that many ships? Your just begging to get caught.

Personaly I have a simple view on TDIC. Its basedon the assumptions that:

1. The crew on the Cardasian/Romulan ships are NOT idiots. And are not going to travel 60,000 light years to do something that is absurdly beyond their ships capacity.

2. Their simulation was accurate (1 hour to destroy the crust, 5 to destroy the mantle)

3. The visual effects we see are accurate inso far as they represent some kind of sensor feed. It may be:

-A wavelength other then visual.

-Bassed on false sensor data (we know for a fact that most ST sensor suits are not straight visual but a computer representation bassed on sensor extrapolation, if bassed on on the false changelging data it could look as wonky as seen).

-May be a straight visual in a way that may not contradict explicitly. Example, if the torpedoes are detonating deep enough under the crust to simply start breaking up the structure for future bombardments and the disruptors are simply NDFIng huge chunks of material.

-The founders are protecting a huge holographic illusion consistent with founders being hit by weapons fire (hell we know individual founders can simply absorb a massive amount of weapons fire, this may have been an illusion consistent with weapons fire pounding through the great link).

Thats where I stand on rectifying TDIC, without absurd ideas that the Founder altered EVERYTHING on such a terrific scale that no-one realised the operation was beyond their capibility, or that the crew are idiots.

[Chris OFarrell]

Quote from "Paradise Lost" season 4. A changeling disguised as O'Brien said that there was only 4 Changelings on Earth causing so much chaos. The problem is: he has every reason to lie (psychologically demoralising for SFC to be vulnerable to so few changelings) and every reason not to be believed (would you believe someone from AQ telling you they're back to 'full strength' and preparing a 'major offensive' or something?).

Thing is though you don't NEED more then four. And the more you have, the greater the risk of one getting caught. Changelings have always appeared to operate in single person units, only occasionaly in multiple groups (well once actualy).

While it is possible there could be others, it fits in well with their ego. Hell WHY did O'Brien Founder come up to Sisko like he did? It was simply to rub his nose in it, that they were so patheticly far behind it was laughable...

[Stofsk]

Yes it is. Changelings don't WORK in large numbers.

Correction, we've only SEEN them work alone, and one admitted they had a team of four on Earth (a claim that wasn't confirmed - there may have been more or less for all we - or Sisko - know).

On Earth itself they only had SEVEN operatives to cover to entire planet and center of the Federation command and control systems.

I thought there was only 4? Where was this 7 claim?

On DS9 to make sure Sisko did not close the wormhole and keep the Dominion out they only had a single operative.

So what? One infiltrator ALMOST manages to fire a WMD 'supernova' bomb into Bajor's sun. Are you telling me that the Romulan Commander (who was revealed to be the infiltrator) can't do any damage to the fleet? Or influence it? Albeit subtley? Maybe he DOESN'T need to sabotage the primary weapon systems, maybe all he has to do is fuck the redundant systems around and in the heat of battle weapons get hit offline and the secondaries can't be put back up. Or same goes for shields, cloaks, warp engines etc.

Further, its extreemly dangerous to screw with the weapons systems like your suggesting. Such sabotage across that many ships? Your just begging to get caught.

The sabotage on the Defiant was just as risky, but was apparently very easy to do. The point of bringing up "The Adversary" is to highlight the sort of trouble ONE Changeling can do on a warship which isn't prepared to deal with infiltration - and it was strongly implied in TDIC that they weren't prepared - given the Romulan COMMANDER was an infiltrator.

Thats where I stand on rectifying TDIC, without absurd ideas that the Founder altered EVERYTHING on such a terrific scale that no-one realised the operation was beyond their capibility, or that the crew are idiots.

I never SAID that, oddly enough. I SAID that the Changeling infiltration may have contributed to what occurred to the fleet's routing. There were prisoners taken, which states that some ships weren't destroyed with all hands. I didn't say the crew were idiots. I didn't say the Changeling/s sabotaged the fleet to such an extent that the operation would be beyond the fleet's capability, all I said is that an infiltration that no-one was prepared for can have an effect on the fucking battle.

Thing is though you don't NEED more then four.

Why? If less is more think how much more more would be.

And the more you have, the greater the risk of one getting caught.

At the stage that they had NO way of reliably determining who was a Changeling and who wasn't? Unless you had someone like Odo who had a 'link' to them, or someone who would be intimate with the subject being infiltrated (and a smart Changeling would 'take care' of them, as well).

Changelings have always appeared to operate in single person units, only occasionaly in multiple groups (well once actualy).

More or less true; doesn't mean that one infiltrator onboard the TDIC fleet, which was prepared for an infiltration, couldn't do some funky shit.

• 1. TDIC: We KNOW the Romulan Commander is an infiltrator.
  
  2. The Adversary: the Ambassador was an infiltrator.
  
  3. WOTW: Martok was an infiltrator.
  
  4. Paradise Lost: We SEE one, but according to O'Brien-infiltrator there are four active agents.

They all show us the effect an infiltrator has and their operations are almost completely successful. In example 2 a single infiltrator states "We... are everywhere." in an obvious effort to demoralise the enemy. Same goes for O'Brien-infiltrator - why the fuck should we BELIEVE him when he claims there are so little (or so many, depending on your POV) Changelings on Earth. Why? Because it serves Psy-ops - to DEMORALISE the enemy.

Example 3: Martok is the Klingon fleet's GENERAL. You telling me this doesn't have a significant effect on the outcome of that battle? Maybe he gave the worst orders possible in order to cause the Klingons the most amount of damage - destablisation is their goal. Weaken through division.

Now, assuming the above, why can't example 1 have a similar effect? That fleet of Warbirds/Keldons didn't seem to do much except get slagged. Why didn't they cloak? Retreat? Scatter and retreat? Sure, you lose a few ships, but the majority can escape and return to base. But then, TAIN wasn't the fleet commander now was he? It was the infiltrator's job.

[Ender]

They were pathetic. I saw the episode. Nothing but a big atmospheric disturbance. Maybe as powerful as a big nuke?

I'd have expected more damage from an antimatter weapon than just a big dust cloud.

That fleet was infiltrated to begin with by the Changelings. There was at least one there. Given the sort of mischief ONE changeling can do to a crew of a warship who's AWARE of it's presence and actively hunting it down (DS9's "The Adversary") who knows a) how many Changelings had infiltrated that fleet and b) what they did to fuck around with the ships, given NO-ONE was aware of the infiltration.

Given it was intended to be a trap with the Jem'Hadar attackers laying in wait, I wonder if it's inconceivable to suggest a possible Changeling infiltration team purposely sabotaging (or 'weakening') the fleet's defensive/offensive capabilities?

Yes it is. Changelings don't WORK in large numbers. On Earth itself they only had SEVEN operatives to cover to entire planet and center of the Federation command and control systems. On DS9 to make sure Sisko did not close the wormhole and keep the Dominion out they only had a single operative.

Further, its extreemly dangerous to screw with the weapons systems like your suggesting. Such sabotage across that many ships? Your just begging to get caught.

Personaly I have a simple view on TDIC. Its basedon the assumptions that:

1. The crew on the Cardasian/Romulan ships are NOT idiots. And are not going to travel 60,000 light years to do something that is absurdly beyond their ships capacity.

2. Their simulation was accurate (1 hour to destroy the crust, 5 to destroy the mantle)

3. The visual effects we see are accurate inso far as they represent some kind of sensor feed. It may be:

-A wavelength other then visual.

-Bassed on false sensor data (we know for a fact that most ST sensor suits are not straight visual but a computer representation bassed on sensor extrapolation, if bassed on on the false changelging data it could look as wonky as seen).

-May be a straight visual in a way that may not contradict explicitly. Example, if the torpedoes are detonating deep enough under the crust to simply start breaking up the structure for future bombardments and the disruptors are simply NDFIng huge chunks of material.

-The founders are protecting a huge holographic illusion consistent with founders being hit by weapons fire (hell we know individual founders can simply absorb a massive amount of weapons fire, this may have been an illusion consistent with weapons fire pounding through the great link).

Thats where I stand on rectifying TDIC, without absurd ideas that the Founder altered EVERYTHING on such a terrific scale that no-one realised the operation was beyond their capibility, or that the crew are idiots.

The problem is that under that interpratation, it conflicts with most other weapons/shields power episodes, notably Relics

[FTeik]

Keep also in mind, that the changelings themself "encouraged" Enabran Tain´s plan, once they learned about it.

So they could very well have created data, that would convince Tain, that thirty ships could destroy the founders homeworld.

[Connor MacLeod]

1. The crew on the Cardasian/Romulan ships are NOT idiots. And are not going to travel 60,000 light years to do something that is absurdly beyond their ships capacity.

Actually, there is something rather idiotic in wasting time to destroy the mantle once the crust is gone? I'd love to know how a race is supposed to survive by living on something that is essentially molten (and that assumes they survive the bombardment.)

And that doesnt necceesarily rule out a tactic of desperation or gambling on success. And it could be arrogance on their part that lead them to believe they could do it.

2. Their simulation was accurate (1 hour to destroy the crust, 5 to destroy the mantle)

Is there any evidence they have done this sort of thing before, though? That rules on the accuracy of such "simulations." If its "simulated", though, that tends to suggest neither the Romulans, nor hte Cardassians have much knowledge of such efforst (suggesting it is far from a routine capability or operation of theirs, even with larrge numbers of ships.)

3. The visual effects we see are accurate inso far as they represent some kind of sensor feed. It may be:

-A wavelength other then visual.

Debatable. No persistant fireballs.. no ejecta from explosions... nothing about exposing the surface of the planet. I suppose we might not see anything if they NDFed large portions of the planet, but I find it unlikely they TOTALLY blanked out fireballs (especially since the visual of the planet does not look odd in any way.)

-May be a straight visual in a way that may not contradict explicitly. Example, if the torpedoes are detonating deep enough under the crust to simply start breaking up the structure for future bombardments and the disruptors are simply NDFIng huge chunks of material.

To an extent, but unlikely as we would be seeing ejecta (unless they were buried too deep.. but that would limit the effectiveness of fragmenting the crust.) Moreover, why bother breaking it up if they can burrow the missiles in to begin with (Breaking it up shouldn't affect any sort of "chain reaction" the energy weapons would have that I can see, either.)

And in any case we wouldn't be seeing the so called "shockwaves" if they were sub-surface detonations, incidentally.

-The founders are protecting a huge holographic illusion consistent with founders being hit by weapons fire (hell we know individual founders can simply absorb a massive amount of weapons fire, this may have been an illusion consistent with weapons fire pounding through the great link).

I can't recall anythign that substantiates this. The only incident I can recall of damage to a founder was when that one was slamemd up against the Defiant's Warp Core by Odo.

[Stofsk]

-The founders are protecting a huge holographic illusion consistent with founders being hit by weapons fire (hell we know individual founders can simply absorb a massive amount of weapons fire, this may have been an illusion consistent with weapons fire pounding through the great link).

I can't recall anythign that substantiates this. The only incident I can recall of damage to a founder was when that one was slamemd up against the Defiant's Warp Core by Odo.

Episode "The Adversary", which I keep on mentioning for some strange reason...

Also DS9's first Mirror Universe storyline, which had Bashir fire at Odo - who then went 'splat'. Single blast, as I recall.

Also 5th season premier (a sucky episode, btw) "Apocalypse Rising" where a dozen or so Klingons shoot at the Martok changeling repeatedly. This seems inconsistent with the Mirror episode, but for all we know one direct hit from a Klingon disruptor was enough, their fanaticism and trigger-happy overzealousness simply got in the way. OR their disruptors were ceremonial pieces and underpowered (hey, would they be EXPECTING a fight?). OR the Mirror example is discounted due to 'AR differences'.

[Connor MacLeod]

Incidentally, if 30 ships can destrtoy the crust of a planet (assumed earthlike) in an hour, this means that each ship is destroying about 1e14m^3 (IE volume) worth of crust each second. Frankly, I don't think this is consistent with observed weapons performance under almost any circumstance, either by DET or Non-DET (NDF or the nearest equivalent)

[Kamakazie Sith]

Keep also in mind, that the changelings themself "encouraged" Enabran Tain´s plan, once they learned about it.

So they could very well have created data, that would convince Tain, that thirty ships could destroy the founders homeworld.

Except you'd also need to convince the ENTIRE crew of the same thing. (which just happened to be veterans)

[SPOOFE]

The problem is that under that interpratation, it conflicts with most other weapons/shields power episodes, notably Relics

I guess one could assume that they were led to believe that the Founder homeworld isn't nearly as big as an Earthlike planet. To stay consistent with Relics, or Pegasus, you'd probably need to assume that they were simulating for a planet about the size of Pluto...

[Gandalf]

Keep also in mind, that the changelings themself "encouraged" Enabran Tain´s plan, once they learned about it.

So they could very well have created data, that would convince Tain, that thirty ships could destroy the founders homeworld.

Except you'd also need to convince the ENTIRE crew of the same thing. (which just happened to be veterans)

Not necessarily, a look at Cardassian society would indicate they value order very much. So they would be less likely to question their superiors. Add in the fact that Tain was the head of the Obsidian Order. This does not seem the kind of guy you'd oppose.

[Stofsk]

The problem is that under that interpratation, it conflicts with most other weapons/shields power episodes, notably Relics

I guess one could assume that they were led to believe that the Founder homeworld isn't nearly as big as an Earthlike planet. To stay consistent with Relics, or Pegasus, you'd probably need to assume that they were simulating for a planet about the size of Pluto...

Which is problematic given in that "The Search" Kira and Sisko were walking around like they were under normal gravity (normal = earth, for the purposes of this point). Can a planet the size of pluto have that much gravity?

Incidentally it seems consistent for the founders to be on a small rock with no obvious sign of Dominion C&C, given their love of both privacy and delegation; if it weren't for Odo how the hell would the AQ races be able to find the Founders and do what Tain attempted? One wonders where the real head quarters world is located, or how the Dominion structures itself so that the Founders can rule their empire effectively (or do they turn over ALL their affairs over to the Vorta, which seems foolhardy at best?).

[Gandalf]

Incidentally it seems consistent for the founders to be on
a small rock with no obvious sign of Dominion C&C, given their love of both privacy and delegation; if it weren't for Odo how the hell would the AQ races be able to find the Founders and do what Tain attempted? One wonders where the real head quarters world is located, or how the Dominion structures itself so that the Founders can rule their empire effectively (or do they turn over ALL their affairs over to the Vorta, which seems foolhardy at best?).

It's possible that a few at a time go out to work with the Vorta. Maybe a few go away for a month, then return to the Link.

Also, the facility under the planet seen in The Search could have been more expansive.

[Stofsk]

It's possible that a few at a time go out to work with the Vorta. Maybe a few go away for a month, then return to the Link.

I think it's more than possible, I think it's a necessity. We see that a Founder was onboard a Jem'Hadar BEETLE ship. Of course, for what purpose we can only guess at - maybe he was simply being ferried to and from a location. But they may have a more 'hands-on' approach to dealing with the affairs of state than it would seem was implied in TDIC (Tain believed an orbital bombardment to wipe out the Founders would severely curtail their powers, kind of like another 'Pearl Harbour' and what it was theoretically supposed to achieve).

Also, the facility under the planet seen in The Search could have been more expansive.

Doubtful. I was talking more like a 'head quarters' planet the likes of Coruscant. Or in the ST universe, Earth or Romulas. 'Capital' worlds, if you will, where there would be a high degree of subspace comm traffic and starship traffic. The Founder's 'homeworld' seemed like nothing more than a rock with a minor installation for unspecified purposes. Perhaps it was little more than a Founder command post, with it's loss setting back the Dominion only marginally.

Given they relocated with apparent ease, I would say this is the case. Tain's abortive attack was not only folly and reckless, but even if it had succeeded, may have indeed been ultimately futile (why would the Founders gather in one location, when everything we have seen about their organisation suggests decentralisation? Member states like the Karemma are free to do what they wish, within guidelines; the Founder's 'Homeworld' can be abandoned with apparent ease and relocation doesn't seem to stress their capabilities too much of an extent; Vorta appear to be on every Jem'Hadar vessel, and acts as a ambassador for the Dominion, the Dominion didn't seem to be at a strategic loss when Sisko et al blew up their supply depot of KC-W in "A Time to Stand" which suggests they could adapt to the situation or never had a "all the eggs in one basket" problem to begin with etc).

[Praxis]

The problem is that under that interpratation, it conflicts with most other weapons/shields power episodes, notably Relics

I guess one could assume that they were led to believe that the Founder homeworld isn't nearly as big as an Earthlike planet. To stay consistent with Relics, or Pegasus, you'd probably need to assume that they were simulating for a planet about the size of Pluto...

Not sure about Relics, but I remember Pegasus.
However, if they were PLANNING to attack a planet, they might have special planetary assualt weapons. Think about it. Star Trek weapons can be tuned to do extra damage to certain materials, right? And those torpedoes struck me as fatter than usual. I wouldn't be surprised if TDIC used a special ground-assualt heavy torpedo instead of normal ones.

[Stofsk]

Not sure about Relics, but I remember Pegasus.
However, if they were PLANNING to attack a planet, they might have special planetary assualt weapons. Think about it. Star Trek weapons can be tuned to do extra damage to certain materials, right? And those torpedoes struck me as fatter than usual. I wouldn't be surprised if TDIC used a special ground-assualt heavy torpedo instead of normal ones.

If they did, then it would give a further factor to explain the fleet's routing. They were prepped and armed for an orbital strike, not fleet engagements. A flaw that was probably initiated in the planning/prep stage (possibly when the Founder/s infiltrated the fleet).

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Not sure about Relics, but I remember Pegasus.
However, if they were PLANNING to attack a planet, they might have special planetary assualt weapons. Think about it. Star Trek weapons can be tuned to do extra damage to certain materials, right? And those torpedoes struck me as fatter than usual. I wouldn't be surprised if TDIC used a special ground-assualt heavy torpedo instead of normal ones.

But aren't photon torpedoes generally assumed to be DET? And while they might be fatter, one has at least a million to one yield gap to bridge, which makes it kind of unlikely that those fat torpedoes won't have some value as conventional weapons.

[Howedar]

Keep also in mind, that the changelings themself "encouraged" Enabran Tain´s plan, once they learned about it.

So they could very well have created data, that would convince Tain, that thirty ships could destroy the founders homeworld.

Except you'd also need to convince the ENTIRE crew of the same thing. (which just happened to be veterans)

Not necessarily, a look at Cardassian society would indicate they value order very much. So they would be less likely to question their superiors. Add in the fact that Tain was the head of the Obsidian Order. This does not seem the kind of guy you'd oppose.

I have to agree with KSith, it would be extraordinarily difficult to get an entire fleet to attempt something they know is impossible.

[The Silence and I]

All an infiltrator would need to do to sabotage the weapon systems on a Federation starship is hack the computer, based on episodes like Contagion, or Brothers. If Cardassian and Romulan starships have the same reliance on computers then it is possible the fleet could have been sabotaged quickly enough to avoid detection.

That said, for the sake of continuity I favor special purpose torpedoes designed for orbital bombardment and little else. Such weapons would not need advanced guidance or maneuvering ability, and would be impractical in fleet engagements much as a daisy cutter is useless in a dog-fight.

For the shockwaves I have worked on a subspace-based explanation; I started with the Skin of Evil and hypothesized that acceleration under the influence of mass-lightening results in subspace shock waves/disturbances upon the destruction of the object artificially lightened. To conserved energy I assumed K.E. would not change, but the 'lighter' something is made, the more of its K.E. exists in subspace, and the destruction of the object, in this case a torpedo, releases this energy. Subspace shock waves can travel long distances, reference Praxix, so a MT worth of 'K.E.' may result in a shockwave more indicitive of a several hundred MT explosion in atmosphere, except that it travels too fast and doesn't last long enough.

As Chris mentioned the races of Startrek use various sensor inputs and render them together as visuals; one of these sensor systems almost certainly is capable of observing subspace events, and should 'see' a subspace shockwave, whether originating from a power production plant, a torpedo or a warp-core explosion. This explains the 400 km wide fireball on Vagra II that lasted about one second, and can explain the ergonormous shockwaves in TDiC.

To explain the lack of fire-balls I expect the detonations were sub-surface, leaving only the subspace shockwave visible. The scrip does not call for vaporization, or even melting of the crust, allowing the possibility of merely massive fragmentation of the crust, and significantly lower firepower estimates as well. The destruction of the ground under your feet, exposure to lethal phaser/disruptor particles and ground-zero immersment in gamma radiation can be expected to kill any lifeform I can think of.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Keep also in mind, that the changelings themself "encouraged" Enabran Tain´s plan, once they learned about it.

So they could very well have created data, that would convince Tain, that thirty ships could destroy the founders homeworld.

Except you'd also need to convince the ENTIRE crew of the same thing. (which just happened to be veterans)

Not necessarily, a look at Cardassian society would indicate they value order very much. So they would be less likely to question their superiors. Add in the fact that Tain was the head of the Obsidian Order. This does not seem the kind of guy you'd oppose.

It wasn't just Cardassian society though. You also had Romulan crews, and I just can't get past them being able to fool all the crews of those ships, who just happen to be combat veterans.