Dreanaught vs ISD

[Alyeska]

Three is sufficent. While the three in Dark Force Rising were having trouble against a single ISD, this is not unexpected. Three is suficent to destroy an ISD, though you will loose one or even two Dreadnaughts in the process. Five is ideal for taking out an ISD without any losses.

Three Dreadnaughts (3 of Bel Iblis' Dark Forcec dreadnaughts.) managed to hold off a Star Destroyer using only ion cannons (maybe for a few minutes), but did not defeat one. DFR even says they would be "hard pressed" to overcome the ship.

Moreover, when fighting over the remnants of the Dark Force at the end of the book (against the Judicator), he brought all 6 and did not readily subdue the ISD.. and when the Peremptory arrived, it was indicated that the odds had shifted again (at best, maybe even.. more like in favor of the Imperials, had it not been for the desperation tactic of ramming the Peremptory.) And again, it was largely with ion cannons that Bel Iblis was making progress, if any. Whether ion cannons are standard complement aboard a Dreadnaught is anyone's guess, though.

I consider it debatable whether 5-6 dreadnaughts, or even 3 dreadnaughts, can really match up with an ISD in a stand-up fight.

If you consider the restrictions that Bel Iblis was opperating under you would realize that 3 is sufficent. At the end of Dark Force he only ever sent 3 Dreadnaughts per ISD (remember, there were two there). Bel Iblis wanted to hurt the Empire, but given his limited resources he did not want to loose any of his forces. Seeing how 3 Dreadnaughts are sufficent to hold off an ISD for a time I have no problem seeing that 3 Dreadnaughts can kill an ISD while taking losses.

[Connor MacLeod]

If you consider the restrictions that Bel Iblis was opperating under you would realize that 3 is sufficent. At the end of Dark Force he only ever sent 3 Dreadnaughts per ISD (remember, there were two there). Bel Iblis wanted to hurt the Empire, but given his limited resources he did not want to loose any of his forces. Seeing how 3 Dreadnaughts are sufficent to hold off an ISD for a time I have no problem seeing that 3 Dreadnaughts can kill an ISD while taking losses.

Uh, if they can destroy an ISD in the same (or less time) it takes to ion cannon them into submission, why aren't they just using their turbolasers to batter them (or why not use them period?) He's got no compunctions about hurting Imperials. And what "restrictions?"

[Alyeska]

If you consider the restrictions that Bel Iblis was opperating under you would realize that 3 is sufficent. At the end of Dark Force he only ever sent 3 Dreadnaughts per ISD (remember, there were two there). Bel Iblis wanted to hurt the Empire, but given his limited resources he did not want to loose any of his forces. Seeing how 3 Dreadnaughts are sufficent to hold off an ISD for a time I have no problem seeing that 3 Dreadnaughts can kill an ISD while taking losses.

Uh, if they can destroy an ISD in the same (or less time) it takes to ion cannon them into submission, why aren't they just using their turbolasers to batter them (or why not use them period?) He's got no compunctions about hurting Imperials. And what "restrictions?"

Using ALL weapons is always faster then using SOME weapons.

[Connor MacLeod]

Using ALL weapons is always faster then using SOME weapons.

So why not use turbolasers? They still have to knock down the shields before being able to harm them, and TLs are generally more destructive.

[consequences]

Using ALL weapons is always faster then using SOME weapons.

Not if you have the ability to channel all of your offensive power through some of your weapons. Using your argument, he had them put all of their energy into Ion cannons, which wouldn't be able to permanently kill an ISD, but presumably would suppress their ability to inflict damage upon his forces more efficiently.

Or maybe they just put all of the turbolaser energy into reinforcing the shields, because they knew the turbolasers wouldn't signifigantly help them with the numbers they had to work with, and the extra shield energy could keep them alive.

[Alyeska]

Bel Iblis didn't try to kill the ISD in question because he had no intention to. He merely needed to stall it so that his transport could escape.

[Connor MacLeod]

So he was merely trying to fend it off/stall it, rather than defeat it? And it was STILL hard pressed to overcome an ISD? That argues that actually defeating or destroying one is going to be much more difficult, not less!

[Alyeska]

So he was merely trying to fend it off/stall it, rather than defeat it? And it was STILL hard pressed to overcome an ISD? That argues that actually defeating or destroying one is going to be much more difficult, not less!

Trying to stall something is MORE dangerous, especialy when your goal is zero friendly casualties.

[Connor MacLeod]

So he was merely trying to fend it off/stall it, rather than defeat it? And it was STILL hard pressed to overcome an ISD? That argues that actually defeating or destroying one is going to be much more difficult, not less!

Trying to stall something is MORE dangerous, especialy when your goal is zero friendly casualties.

So then why stall rather than disable/destroy? An enemy can't do much damage to you if you take out his shields and weapons, can he? Which would be much easier than destroying the target (especially IF the turbolasers are generally more damaging weapons than ion cannons.)

I might also ask if this is s upposed to suggest Bel Iblis was holding back, because thats what the argument is starting to sound suspiciously like (at least to me, assuming I am not misinterpreting things.)

[Alyeska]

So he was merely trying to fend it off/stall it, rather than defeat it? And it was STILL hard pressed to overcome an ISD? That argues that actually defeating or destroying one is going to be much more difficult, not less!

Trying to stall something is MORE dangerous, especialy when your goal is zero friendly casualties.

So then why stall rather than disable/destroy? An enemy can't do much damage to you if you take out his shields and weapons, can he? Which would be much easier than destroying the target (especially IF the turbolasers are generally more damaging weapons than ion cannons.)

I might also ask if this is s upposed to suggest Bel Iblis was holding back, because thats what the argument is starting to sound suspiciously like (at least to me, assuming I am not misinterpreting things.)

(sigh)

Ok, here is how it goes.

3 Dreadnaughts can destroy an ISD WHILE TAKING LOSSES. Bel Iblis does not want to needlessly waste his resources. He can stall the ISD in a shorter period of time and rescue his transport that was being interecepted by the ISD.

Bel Iblis has two goals. Save his transport, preserve his assets. Stalling the ISD long enough to escape was all he wanted to do. His Dreadnaughts were being pushed to the limit, but they could do it.

Now Bel could have destroyed the ISD had he choosen to, but doing so would have cost him severly. In the very least he would have lost on Dreadnaught, quite probably even two. He didn't need to or care to do this.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ok, here is how it goes.

3 Dreadnaughts can destroy an ISD WHILE TAKING LOSSES.

Even though it was indicated they would be "hard pressed" to take out a Star Destroyer? Even working together?

Bel Iblis does not want to needlessly waste his resources.

Isn't this an assumption? Besides, even if its true for the first part, what about the Judicator and Peremptory?

He can stall the ISD in a shorter period of time and rescue his transport that was being interecepted by the ISD.

Distraction is fine. But how does that mean that the three Dreadnaughts were actually inflicting any noticable/significant damage? If they were, they would have had to knock out the shields, and if they could do that, disabling it should have been easier with the turbolasers (and more worthwhile, since the ion cannon damage was indicated to only be "temporary")

It should be noted that the ion bombardment from Iblis's six dreadnaughts combined did not impair the ability of the Judicator to escape to hyperspace (meaning at least engines and gravity systems were still working, if not weapons), and that they still had shielding.

Bel Iblis has two goals. Save his transport, preserve his assets. Stalling the ISD long enough to escape was all he wanted to do. His Dreadnaughts were being pushed to the limit, but they could do it.

You're not getting it. If the 3 Dreadnaughts were able to knock out the shields, disabling it (if not outright destroying it) wouldn't be that much more difficult for them to do. And they would have had no reason to hold back (In fact, using turbolasers with ion cannons would work better in disabling the shields.)

In other words, if 3 dreadnaughts with ion cannons (which at the end of the book is mentioned to supposedly make a difference here) could not inflict any sort of substantial damage, how do you expect 3 of them to be able ot take out an ISD?

Now Bel could have destroyed the ISD had he choosen to, but doing so would have cost him severly. In the very least he would have lost on Dreadnaught, quite probably even two. He didn't need to or care to do this.

So Bel Iblis supposedly IS holding back firepower against an ISD? And that's supposed to make sense?

[Alyeska]

Even though it was indicated they would be "hard pressed" to take out a Star Destroyer? Even working together?

They were hard pressed given the circumstances I already said.

Isn't this an assumption? Besides, even if its true for the first part, what about the Judicator and Peremptory?

So Bel would waste some Dreadnaughts to save a few dozen people... Its called simple logic. The later example is slightly different in that Bel was requested to help out and there was basicaly no retreat. So he aided as best he could. He wasn't dealing with those ISDs alone either. He knew he support was aiding others to deal death blows.

Distraction is fine. But how does that mean that the three Dreadnaughts were actually inflicting any noticable/significant damage? If they were, they would have had to knock out the shields, and if they could do that, disabling it should have been easier with the turbolasers (and more worthwhile, since the ion cannon damage was indicated to only be "temporary")

They weren't trying to cause damage. They were merely stalling and disrupting to allow the escape of the transports.

It should be noted that the ion bombardment from Iblis's six dreadnaughts combined did not impair the ability of the Judicator to escape to hyperspace (meaning at least engines and gravity systems were still working, if not weapons), and that they still had shielding.

Now examining this I am starting to think that Dreadnaughts could concentrate their fire in a system. Ions can cause some system disruption (though not on engines). Either way all it proves is an ISD can escape under the fire of 6 Dreadnaughts firing Ions only and while sustaining fire only for a short period of time.

You're not getting it. If the 3 Dreadnaughts were able to knock out the shields, disabling it (if not outright destroying it) wouldn't be that much more difficult for them to do. And they would have had no reason to hold back (In fact, using turbolasers with ion cannons would work better in disabling the shields.)

If their mission was to destroy the ISD, yes. Your forgetting THAT IS NOT THEIR MISSION.

In other words, if 3 dreadnaughts with ion cannons (which at the end of the book is mentioned to supposedly make a difference here) could not inflict any sort of substantial damage, how do you expect 3 of them to be able ot take out an ISD?

Well according to you the Dreadnaught is so fucking weak that it can't do jackshit.

So Bel Iblis supposedly IS holding back firepower against an ISD? And that's supposed to make sense?

He is holding back firepower that isn't needed. Killing the ISD would loose him assets. Stalling the ISD to save his transport is all he needed.

[Connor MacLeod]

So Bel would waste some Dreadnaughts to save a few dozen people...

And the people onboard Quenfis, and the fighter pilots, and Mara Jade and Karrde's smugglers? And maybe sacrifice/risk some of his people to save them all?

Oh, and don't forget that there are 15 other dreadnaughts there up for grabs as well.

And, if it would take out oen or even two of Thrawn's Star Destroyers, why not? An ISD > Dreadnaught, especially since an argument could be made for him to acquire a new one on behalf of his efforts for the New Republic.

Its called simple logic. The later example is slightly different in that Bel was requested to help out and there was basicaly no retreat. So he aided as best he could. He wasn't dealing with those ISDs alone either. He knew he support was aiding others to deal death blows.

So why weren't they using TLS against the Judicator in the later example? And even then they still didn't stand much of a chance once the Peremptory arrived:

"Bel Iblis had shifted three of his ships to meet the new threat, but even equipped with ion cannon, three Dreadnaughts couldn't hold down a Star Destroyer for long." - DFR page 429

On top of that, on page 433 Luke feared everyone would be killed if they didnt do something to help the battle. Does that really sound like to you that 3 Dreadnaughts can inflict any sort of substantial damage on an ISD?

They weren't trying to cause damage. They were merely stalling and disrupting to allow the escape of the transports.

WHy not? Causing damage would be the most efficient way of distracting and disrupting systems. Besides, to actually achieve any effective disruption, they would still have to knock down the shielding somehow. And if they can knock out the shields, why bother with ion cannons only? TLs would be at least as useful, if not moreso.

Now examining this I am starting to think that Dreadnaughts could concentrate their fire in a system. Ions can cause some system disruption (though not on engines).

Without dropping their shielding first?

Either way all it proves is an ISD can escape under the fire of 6 Dreadnaughts firing Ions only and while sustaining fire only for a short period of time.

We're exaclty not sure of how long it is (or the exact output of the ion weapons either.) Anyhow, 6 Dreadnaughts isn't 3, and its not unreasonable to think Bel Iblis might sacrifice a dreadnaught or two to acquire an ISD.

If their mission was to destroy the ISD, yes. Your forgetting THAT IS NOT THEIR MISSION.

What difference does this make regarding having to knock down their shields, regardless of having to disable or destroy it? They could still have only knocked out weapons or engines and still needed to do so. And they could have used TLs to do it (they've been used to disable ships before.. much smaller ones as well.)

Well according to you the Dreadnaught is so fucking weak that it can't do jackshit.

No, I just think it takes more than 3 of htem to take out an ISD. You don't think that an ISD outguns a single dreadnaught by a significant margin (And can thus batter their shields down more quickly than they can batter his?)

He is holding back firepower that isn't needed. Killing the ISD would loose him assets. Stalling the ISD to save his transport is all he needed.

So how does this explain the near-identical sentiments and circumstances in the Judicator/Peremptory example at the end of the book (IE 3:1 odds, ion cannon attack, not able to hold them off for long, etc.)

[MrAnderson]

With a sufficiently reckless captain who knows he cannot win a standup fight it only takes one Dreadnought to destroy an ISD.

It was proven in the second Zahn book that an ISD cannot survive the ramming impact of a dreadnought.