I find this amusing, and oddly true

[ArmorPierce]

and might I add that finding work was hard in itself since my mother is a immigrant with little job skills and doesn't speak English well.

[frigidmagi]

Aly you remember all the stuff I told you my family went through on when agruing the minium wage?

Do we have to go through that again?

Now I agree with some, I don't have the right to sue Moore because he offended me for example, he has every right to say and believe has he likes. Just has I have every right to curse and screech when he does.

I disagree with some.

Some just scares me.

[salm]

People do not generally have life-savings wiped out providing for medical care. And people are not islands. Friends, and relatives, at least with my family, are more than ready to pitch in if someone is having medical problems, if someone at school is having troube paying for sugery, the student body holds a fund raiser that brings thousands of dollars in aid EASILY.

you´d probably have to be sufficiently popular enough in order to recieve this sort of welfare.
now imagine some person who needs welfare living in the bible belt and being a known satanist. will people still donate money for his surgery? or for an openly gay person?
for a person who is suspected to be a child rapist?

i prefer a health care system which does not rely on emotional decisions of the broad popoulation.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Half of it is libertarian wanking.

Careful there, wouldn't want to hurt yourself with all that deep, point by point thinking your doing there.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I have before, mother lost her job and while she was retraining we didnt go on welfare, we found friends and relatives who loaned us money, and now that mother is working for herself, is paying back the loans.

When my father went crazy with mid-life crisis and left my mother, brother and me we had no one. My mother has no family on her side that could loan us money and my father's side tried to screw us. We were new to the area and my mother didn't have any close friends there. My mother didn't have a job being a house wife. What would you have had us do, starve? Eventually my mother was able to find a job and my father comes back and we get off welfare.

Which is what welfare should be if it exists at all. It should be bare mimimum"keep you from loosing your home and starving" money, It should not be enough to pay for luxuries at all. it should be enough to pay rent, to pay for basic foot staples(Ramen, milk, cheese, break buttter and fruit) and water. It whould be enough to pay for heating if in a cold climate, and air conditioning in a hot one. That is it.

you´d probably have to be sufficiently popular enough in order to recieve this sort of welfare.
now imagine some person who needs welfare living in the bible belt and being a known satanist. will people still donate money for his surgery? or for an openly gay person?
for a person who is suspected to be a child rapist?

i prefer a health care system which does not rely on emotional decisions of the broad popoulation.

Does the known satanist have family? And is he aware that he can set up a payment plan with any hospital, pay 50 bucks a month, and they cant turn him down? You arent fucking screwed if you cant come up with the money up-front. And it isnlt like they can repo your surgery.

This sort of open lie about the state of the world today only works in Libertarian Support Groups. It does not go down well in the face of someone applying for work on a daily basis for two years and still only has a 4-days-a-month part-time job.

The world is not fucking magic, Alyrium. Wishing for a job does not grant one.

Have you considered relocation? Hell, you need to get pubished, Newspapers will pay you for articles and you dont even need to be there in person.

And again, for cases like you welfare should EXIST, but it should be small, very very small.

Funny that your Lib wankfest didn't mention this. Where's this come into what I asked, though? Oh, yea, no where.

Well then you didnt read it. It mentioned stabbing yourself in the eye with a screwdriver, that is a frivelous lawsuit.

Yea, just no money to pay the hospital. Whoops.

Even read what i wrote? It isnt like they can say "you didnt make last months 50 dollar payment, we are putting your cancerous breast back on"

I'd love to see some proof of this one... It won't come, though.

30 percent income tax on corporations, another 30% tax on the individual employees tax on stock dividents, gift taxes.... . Property taxes, and other taxes. Large corporations literally have people on their payroll looking for ways to give away money so they can go into a lower tax bracket. Think about that one fo a second. Something costs you a dollar to make, you want to make a 4 dollar profit. So you charge 5 bucks. Then the government comes along and takes 2 dollars. Shit. Then the givernment comes along again and takes another dollar... Well shit. Looks like you have to charge more.

So in short, you have no answer. Though so. Piss off.

Not my fault if you dont read it.

Very very few people support themselves completely on private donations. In all but very odd cases, at least in this country, poverty is a temporary affair and a combination of unemloyment insurance, and family/friend help is enough to get you through a hard time. Private donations.

In the case where no such aid exists, I would allow for a small welfare program that someone can ot out of on their tax forms(when you fill out all those tax forms for a job, you can check a small box to not pay an extra 1% for a small streamlined welfare program) that is difficult to qualify for. That way, people are givng permission for you to use their money. Otherwise it is theft.

Christ, people, can we please stop using the McDonald's case as an example of a frivilous lawsuit? It's not, it wasn't, and it never will be, and it's getting really tiresome.

What are yu smoking? That was one of the most frivelous lawsuits imaginable. How stupid must someone be?

There are chainsaws out there that have warnings "do not attempt to stop blade with hands or genitals" someone had to sue and win for that to be there. That shit is s stupid it needs to stop.

It's the height of fucking stupidity and it saddens me to see you caught in it's bullshit. It's intellectual wanking at it's absolute worst "If someone wants to work, they can." Is such utter shite I can hardly believe you brought it up, every single unemployed person in the US right now is a worthless leach on society that doesnt want to work I guess? That seems to be basically what you're saying.

No, but unemployment in the US is generally transitory. Only in really wierd cases is it long term. You arent going to loose your house if you cant find a job for two months. Six months maybe, but not two. And while you have to look for a job, follow up on applications, go to interviews, possibly seek Job training, or hell, go into business for yourself, you cn find employment. There are courses in real estate you can take at a ocal community college here, a couple months and a bar exam. After that, you have to be somewhat socialable, but as real estate agent you can make money hand over fist(my mom makes $5-10k a month when business is good)

My family would be a standing rebuttle to this. When my father got laid off from Westinghouse, we ended up on welfare for about two years to stay afloat, despite my parents at any given time having three jobs between them. Eventually, my father was picked up by the Bulk Mail Center and ba-da-bing, off welfare again. But at no point did my parents like being on welfare, or having to use food stamps, but they had very little choice in the matter. At no point did either of them ever intend to stay on welfare or "pump out more kids" to get more benefits.

WHich is what welfare SHOULD be for. However, you did not at any point have an inherent right to that money. You had to ask for it and you had to try to find a way to get off it. It was a priviledge. Not a right.

[SirNitram]

This sort of open lie about the state of the world today only works in Libertarian Support Groups. It does not go down well in the face of someone applying for work on a daily basis for two years and still only has a 4-days-a-month part-time job.

The world is not fucking magic, Alyrium. Wishing for a job does not grant one.

Have you considered relocation? Hell, you need to get pubished, Newspapers will pay you for articles and you dont even need to be there in person.

Have you considered how expensive relocation can be, Alyrium?

And again, for cases like you welfare should EXIST, but it should be small, very very small.

Well, at least you're remaining head and shoulders above most Libertarians when it comes to logical thinking.

Funny that your Lib wankfest didn't mention this. Where's this come into what I asked, though? Oh, yea, no where.

Well then you didnt read it. It mentioned stabbing yourself in the eye with a screwdriver, that is a frivelous lawsuit.

Do you see me disagreeing on that point? No. I asked a very specific question, Alyrium. You went off on tangents.

Yea, just no money to pay the hospital. Whoops.

Even read what i wrote? It isnt like they can say "you didnt make last months 50 dollar payment, we are putting your cancerous breast back on"

No, but they can harass you endlessly at your home.

I'd love to see some proof of this one... It won't come, though.

30 percent income tax on corporations, another 30% tax on the individual employees tax on stock dividents, gift taxes.... . Property taxes, and other taxes. Large corporations literally have people on their payroll looking for ways to give away money so they can go into a lower tax bracket. Think about that one fo a second. Something costs you a dollar to make, you want to make a 4 dollar profit. So you charge 5 bucks. Then the government comes along and takes 2 dollars. Shit. Then the givernment comes along again and takes another dollar... Well shit. Looks like you have to charge more.

See, I was hoping for something unique to pharmacuticals, as that would explain why they overcharge more than any other industry. However, all of these are literally to every large corp. Therefore there is no excuse in them for the bleeding-dry pharmacuticals get away with in the US.

So in short, you have no answer. Though so. Piss off.

Not my fault if you dont read it.

You didn't write anything in response to my actual question.

Very very few people support themselves completely on private donations. In all but very odd cases, at least in this country, poverty is a temporary affair and a combination of unemloyment insurance, and family/friend help is enough to get you through a hard time. Private donations.

I trust you have some evidence to claim the vast majority are in this manner, and not simply anecdotes.

In the case where no such aid exists, I would allow for a small welfare program that someone can ot out of on their tax forms(when you fill out all those tax forms for a job, you can check a small box to not pay an extra 1% for a small streamlined welfare program) that is difficult to qualify for. That way, people are givng permission for you to use their money. Otherwise it is theft.

No, otherwise is taxation. I realize you have read far too much Libertarian propaganda to understand why taxation is necessary for a 20th/21st century nation, but I have confidence you've shaken off enough already that you'll come back to sanity.

[Dahak]

Must be my German 'socialist' self, but I do think that everyone has a right to public health care, and a right to get welfare.
No one is to suffer because of unfortunate incidents, losing his job, et al.

Luckily, this is enshrined in our constitution, so I can be happy that laws like that could never be imposed on me...

[Gil Hamilton]

WHich is what welfare SHOULD be for. However, you did not at any point have an inherent right to that money. You had to ask for it and you had to try to find a way to get off it. It was a priviledge. Not a right.

No one said there was an inherent right. However, you directly stated there that my father was lazy and because he was on welfare had no incentive to get off of it and that my mother was a baby factory to get them more benefits. Here's a newsflash, asshole, my parents worked damn hard to get off welfare. Furthermore, I'm the youngest in my family and I was born six years before my Westinghouse Electric culled it's mechanics due to budget concerns. My mother was hardly "pump[ing] out more kids" to get benefits, they could barely afford the two of us.

Of course, it's really easy to be ideological when you live of the welfare of your parents, huh, Alyrium?

[salm]

Does the known satanist have family?

oh, come on. i´m talking about people who DONT´T have anybody willing to pay for them. i thought that was clear.

And is he aware that he can set up a payment plan with any hospital, pay 50 bucks a month, and they cant turn him down? You arent fucking screwed if you cant come up with the money up-front. And it isnlt like they can repo your surgery.

that´s a different thing. i responded to your claim that the social network is strong enough on a voluntary level that it can basicly support everybody making a nation wide healthcare system redundant.
i don´t think it is. a system like yours enforces people to be asskissers in order to be popular, in order to be well off when in need of wellfare.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Of course, it's really easy to be ideological when you live of the welfare of your parents, huh, Alyrium?

I apologize for the implication, however this last one is what we like to call an Ad Hominim

Have you considered how expensive relocation can be, Alyrium?

Not as bad as you may think, depending on where you go. Though it can be pricey

Though, have you considered going into business for yourself? Just wondering...

o you see me disagreeing on that point? No. I asked a very specific question, Alyrium. You went off on tangents.

Was responignt to yours and several other posts at once.

No, but they can harass you endlessly at your home.

At least you are alive.

See, I was hoping for something unique to pharmacuticals, as that would explain why they overcharge more than any other industry. However, all of these are literally to every large corp. Therefore there is no excuse in them for the bleeding-dry pharmacuticals get away with in the US.

That is what happens when a drug company has a temporary monopoly on a certain product... dont have to worry about that think called competition. However, you will note that once generics and other companies are allowed to roduce the drug, the price drops like a rock.

I trust you have some evidence to claim the vast majority are in this manner, and not simply anecdotes.

Common sense... The vast majority of peope who work pay into unemployment insurance. Most people have friends and family who will loan them money to make their house payments. And unemployyment is transitory, could take a while, but in someone wants to they will eventually find work that pays the rent, I cant comment on your specific case, but in the majority of cases, there are job openings, new businesses popping up, and even self-employment is an option.

No, otherwise is taxation. I realize you have read far too much Libertarian propaganda to understand why taxation is necessary for a 20th/21st century nation, but I have confidence you've shaken off enough already that you'll come back to sanity.

No... government taking money to pay for things like roads and an army is taxation. Taking my money without my permission and giving to to someone who didnt work for it is theft. It doesnt matter whether an individual or a government does it.

that´s a different thing. i responded to your claim that the social network is strong enough on a voluntary level that it can basicly support everybody making a nation wide healthcare system redundant.

Nice strawman. You cant support EVERYONE. You can however support the people who are so destitute they cant pay 50 dollars a month in a payment plan after a life-saving surgical proceedure. And MOST doctors if faced with such a case will waive their pay. The simple matter is, a private system is strong enough that, if taxation is lower than it is now(byy cutting things like welfare down to bare ass minimum, and weaning people off of social security over the course of a few decades) health insurance would be easily affordable. And if someone lives a life of luxury(middle/upper-middle class) and chooses not to have a private insurance plan(which, in a socialist system they would pay MORE for anyway because they have to pick up the slack for others) it is their damn choice.

i don´t think it is. a system like yours enforces people to be asskissers in order to be popular, in order to be well off when in need of wellfare.

Subsistence is different from well off. You seem to think everyne has a right to be well-off and comfortable. You are in Germany correct?

Unemployment in Germany is roughtly 10% You guys have an econoy that is, to say the least, lagging. Socialist programes, give an incentive not to work, and they increase business costs so that it is harder to start small businesses and larger companies hire fewer workers. If you dont have those, people have a NEED to work, because they cant get a way with not workn. Opening a business is easier, and those that are open will hire more people. Basic logic, and economics.

[Gil Hamilton]

I apologize for the implication, however this last one is what we like to call an Ad Hominim.

Quick thing. It's not an "Ad Hominim" or any sort of fallacy if I'm not making an argument. "You're wrong because you're an asshole" is an ad hominim argument. "You're an asshole" is a statement. In the case of what I said, that would be a statement, and a true one as well.

[SirNitram]

Have you considered how expensive relocation can be, Alyrium?

Not as bad as you may think, depending on where you go. Though it can be pricey

Extremely pricey. That's why I came here; the cost of living is rock-bottom.

Though, have you considered going into business for yourself? Just wondering...

..Alyrium, you are my good friend. I consider you a smart person on most subjects, and you get misled once in a while. I'm sure you think largely the same on me. But have you stopped and thought about this? I have.. I have plans laid out.. But there's that serious lack of cash flow to start.

o you see me disagreeing on that point? No. I asked a very specific question, Alyrium. You went off on tangents.

Was responignt to yours and several other posts at once.

Again, I point out there wasn't a response to my question in that post. I recignize the desire to get alot covered in one, but you missed the mark.

No, but they can harass you endlessly at your home.

At least you are alive.

I want you to stop and think, Alyrium. How long do you think hospitals can continue to operate in low-income areas if there's not even medicare to pay for the operations they do? It's very easy to say 'Oh, they have to take care of you' but you're ignoring your own oft-harped on nature of economics.

See, I was hoping for something unique to pharmacuticals, as that would explain why they overcharge more than any other industry. However, all of these are literally to every large corp. Therefore there is no excuse in them for the bleeding-dry pharmacuticals get away with in the US.

That is what happens when a drug company has a temporary monopoly on a certain product... dont have to worry about that think called competition. However, you will note that once generics and other companies are allowed to roduce the drug, the price drops like a rock.

So in the meantime it's perfectly moral to bleed people dry and kick insurance premiums higher for the sake of their bottom dollar? Stop and THINK, please, about the consequences.

I trust you have some evidence to claim the vast majority are in this manner, and not simply anecdotes.

Common sense... The vast majority of peope who work pay into unemployment insurance. Most people have friends and family who will loan them money to make their house payments. And unemployyment is transitory, could take a while, but in someone wants to they will eventually find work that pays the rent, I cant comment on your specific case, but in the majority of cases, there are job openings, new businesses popping up, and even self-employment is an option.

So you don't have any evidence?

No, otherwise is taxation. I realize you have read far too much Libertarian propaganda to understand why taxation is necessary for a 20th/21st century nation, but I have confidence you've shaken off enough already that you'll come back to sanity.

No... government taking money to pay for things like roads and an army is taxation. Taking my money without my permission and giving to to someone who didnt work for it is theft. It doesnt matter whether an individual or a government does it.

Here's a novel idea.. Prove it. Don't claim it fact with nothing but your gut feeling and some Libertarian propaganda to back it up.[/quote]

[Illuminatus Primus]

Libertarians, with all their love for capitalism, never seem to appreciate the capital needed to begin business and competition. Many entrepreneurs are rich and educated to begin with.

[Alyrium Denryle]

People have to operate on those unable to consent all the time, for the greater good, by your insane system, we'd have to leave them.

Do yu have half-decent credit(for a small business loan) and possibly a few Investors/Partners? There is of course som risk involved(substantial)

I want you to stop and think, Alyrium. How long do you think hospitals can continue to operate in low-income areas if there's not even medicare to pay for the operations they do? It's very easy to say 'Oh, they have to take care of you' but you're ignoring your own oft-harped on nature of economics.

WHich is why hospitals are in short supply in low-income areas, even with medicare/medicaid. Which is why there are small clinics for general practice, and for surgery people can be transported to a major hospital. Though, that is a weak point in a private health system I will admit.

So in the meantime it's perfectly moral to bleed people dry and kick insurance premiums higher for the sake of their bottom dollar? Stop and THINK, please, about the consequences.

Actually, I was implying that we should get rid of some of the patent laws and 'encourage'/allow corporate espionage

So you don't have any evidence?

For what? The transitory(on an individual level) of unemployment? How many people loose their job, and loook for work for the next 20 years?

I suppose we should start at the beginning with the types of unemployment.

Seasonal: You are Santa Claus at a mall, naturally, you are only employed during the winter months. Transitory by definition.

Frictional Unemployment: This is when you quit, or are fired, you must look for a job. If someone is not qualified for anything, really unlucky, or lives in a third world country, or the local job market is absolute shit, they MIGHT not be able to find a job again. However, that is unlikely(common sense here Nitram)

Structural unemployment: This is what happens when the automobile was invented and all the carriage makers were out of a job(just an example) this can be a little nasty simply for the need to retrain.

Cyclical: There are good years and bad years. The farm doesnt do well, a few farm hands need to be let go, then they are re-hired on a good year. This is also transitory by definition.

Here's a novel idea.. Prove it. Don't claim it fact with nothing but your gut feeling and some Libertarian propaganda to back it up

Steal, ver

1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.


US constitution Article 1 Section 8 Claus 1"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Congress has the power to tax in order to provide for a military, police, and things that benifit EVERYONE(general welfare) AKA roads, things of that nature. Taxing, and then giving that tax money to another individual for their personal use without paying for a service(like road building) is extra constitutional. And the constitution was intended to LIMIT the governments ability to do such things.

Those specific items, are TAXES. The government has no contitutional right to redistribute personal property without the consent of the owner. WHich is why we have Emminents Domain(they must be compensated) the fourth, and ninth amendments. TO LIMIT GOVERNMENT POWER.

[SirNitram]

People have to operate on those unable to consent all the time, for the greater good, by your insane system, we'd have to leave them.

Do yu have half-decent credit(for a small business loan) and possibly a few Investors/Partners? There is of course som risk involved(substantial)

Massive risk. ANd I have no credit. Credit can be very hard to get if you have no money..

I want you to stop and think, Alyrium. How long do you think hospitals can continue to operate in low-income areas if there's not even medicare to pay for the operations they do? It's very easy to say 'Oh, they have to take care of you' but you're ignoring your own oft-harped on nature of economics.

WHich is why hospitals are in short supply in low-income areas, even with medicare/medicaid. Which is why there are small clinics for general practice, and for surgery people can be transported to a major hospital. Though, that is a weak point in a private health system I will admit.

At least you admit that much

So in the meantime it's perfectly moral to bleed people dry and kick insurance premiums higher for the sake of their bottom dollar? Stop and THINK, please, about the consequences.

Actually, I was implying that we should get rid of some of the patent laws and 'encourage'/allow corporate espionage

So you don't have any evidence?

For what? The transitory(on an individual level) of unemployment? How many people loose their job, and loook for work for the next 20 years?

I suppose we should start at the beginning with the types of unemployment.

Seasonal: You are Santa Claus at a mall, naturally, you are only employed during the winter months. Transitory by definition.

Frictional Unemployment: This is when you quit, or are fired, you must look for a job. If someone is not qualified for anything, really unlucky, or lives in a third world country, or the local job market is absolute shit, they MIGHT not be able to find a job again. However, that is unlikely(common sense here Nitram)

You've not been looking for work lately... It's certainly not just waiting to fall out of the sky for those that wish hard enough.

Structural unemployment: This is what happens when the automobile was invented and all the carriage makers were out of a job(just an example) this can be a little nasty simply for the need to retrain.

Cyclical: There are good years and bad years. The farm doesnt do well, a few farm hands need to be let go, then they are re-hired on a good year. This is also transitory by definition.

Here's a novel idea.. Prove it. Don't claim it fact with nothing but your gut feeling and some Libertarian propaganda to back it up

Steal, ver

1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.


US constitution Article 1 Section 8 Claus 1"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Congress has the power to tax in order to provide for a military, police, and things that benifit EVERYONE(general welfare) AKA roads, things of that nature. Taxing, and then giving that tax money to another individual for their personal use without paying for a service(like road building) is extra constitutional. And the constitution was intended to LIMIT the governments ability to do such things.

You know, it would massively behoove you to actually read what you wrote. I'll requote the relevent and bold the bit you obviously missed.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Healthcare and subsistence are generally pretty important to someone's welfare, Alyrium...

Those specific items, are TAXES. The government has no contitutional right to redistribute personal property without the consent of the owner. WHich is why we have Emminents Domain(they must be compensated) the fourth, and ninth amendments. TO LIMIT GOVERNMENT POWER.

Except that it doesn't prevent providing for people who need it, and in fact specifically includes it under 'general welfare'. I'm sorry if the Lib propaganda doesn't address that. It's there.

[Alyrium Denryle]

You've not been looking for work lately... It's certainly not just waiting to fall out of the sky for those that wish hard enough.

What job skills to you have nitram? just out of curiousity

Healthcare and subsistence are generally pretty important to someone's welfare, Alyrium.

Dont try to play semantic games with the constitution Nitram. The founding fathers never intended a massive system of safety nets. What they intended was for taxes to provide for defense, and things that helped everyone regardless of social/economic status. Remember, words were used differently, and the concept of a welfare state did not even exist at the time.

Roads, post offices, fire departments(whos modern form Franklin invented BTW) those were the intent. Sorry if I am to much of a strict constuctionalist for some peoples liking. Now, if you want to amend the constitution, that is fine. Go ahead and try. Write senator Byrd and have hm introduce a constitutional amendment...

Massive risk. ANd I have no credit. Credit can be very hard to get if you have no money..

Which is a bit of a problem. Again though, Real Estate...You could do well at it.

[His Divine Shadow]

Lots of people want to improve their lot, go figure. This bitch was improving her lot by muching off of others totally and completely. I could have done the same, or my wife could have done the same, but why would I or she want to hamstring others by using their money to send our selves through school?

So she got a college education and is therefore able to get a job that pays good and become a productive member of society that pays taxes like every one else.

[Knife]

Lots of people want to improve their lot, go figure. This bitch was improving her lot by muching off of others totally and completely. I could have done the same, or my wife could have done the same, but why would I or she want to hamstring others by using their money to send our selves through school?

So she got a college education and is therefore able to get a job that pays good and become a productive member of society that pays taxes like every one else.

That sounds alot like 'the end justifies the means'. Because she got the education and then could make a contribution to society in the form of taxes, that makes it alright that she got a tax funded free ride?

[Keevan_Colton]

So she got a college education and is therefore able to get a job that pays good and become a productive member of society that pays taxes like every one else.

That sounds alot like 'the end justifies the means'. Because she got the education and then could make a contribution to society in the form of taxes, that makes it alright that she got a tax funded free ride?

Whiney Greedy Bastard : "But, it's my fuckin' money! I should keep my money! Fuck the fact I've recieved benifits from the government when needed in the form of protection and education, I didnt need as much help so I dont wanna give any fuckin' money for some bitch to be able to contribute! Send 'em to the fuckin' workhouses!"

[His Divine Shadow]

Society is making itself better by helping educate it's members and making them into productive citizens, the whole thing brings tears to my eyes.

[Natorgator]

So she got a college education and is therefore able to get a job that pays good and become a productive member of society that pays taxes like every one else.

That sounds alot like 'the end justifies the means'. Because she got the education and then could make a contribution to society in the form of taxes, that makes it alright that she got a tax funded free ride?

Whiney Greedy Bastard : "But, it's my fuckin' money! I should keep my money! Fuck the fact I've recieved benifits from the government when needed in the form of protection and education, I didnt need as much help so I dont wanna give any fuckin' money for some bitch to be able to contribute! Send 'em to the fuckin' workhouses!"

No shit. How the fuck is she supposed to go to school AND support her kid if she's working 60 hours a week at some minimum wage job just to make ends meet?

[Alyrium Denryle]

So she got a college education and is therefore able to get a job that pays good and become a productive member of society that pays taxes like every one else.

That sounds alot like 'the end justifies the means'. Because she got the education and then could make a contribution to society in the form of taxes, that makes it alright that she got a tax funded free ride?

Whiney Greedy Bastard : "But, it's my fuckin' money! I should keep my money! Fuck the fact I've recieved benifits from the government when needed in the form of protection and education, I didnt need as much help so I dont wanna give any fuckin' money for some bitch to be able to contribute! Send 'em to the fuckin' workhouses!"

More like "That is my money, and If I am going to pay into welfare, why the fuck should the amount of money she recieves from the government se so much that she can support herself, go to school, and pay for a babysitter, when I cant even afford to do those things after taxes"

Or in other words, that bitch was living better than he was when she was on government assistance, which he payed for.

[Keevan_Colton]

More like "That is my money, and If I am going to pay into welfare, why the fuck should the amount of money she recieves from the government se so much that she can support herself, go to school, and pay for a babysitter, when I cant even afford to do those things after taxes"

Or in other words, that bitch was living better than he was when she was on government assistance, which he payed for.

You really are loosing the use of brain cells thanks to this shit arent you?
She must be leading a life of luxury and leisure since she is getting welfare support to take care of her children while she tries to "retrain" to use a term you seem to like, so that she can get a job and support herself. Well done shit for brains, you're objecting to welfare being used only to support people enough to get them off welfare...which up till a few posts back was what you said should be the sole use of welfare.

So, either welfare offers support to get those in need of help on thier feet and supporting themselves again, or we have no welfare and leave the poor to starve in the streets. Your choice, but please, try and think about it rather than taking the Libertarian/Idiocy party line.

[SirNitram]

You've not been looking for work lately... It's certainly not just waiting to fall out of the sky for those that wish hard enough.

What job skills to you have nitram? just out of curiousity

Network administration experience, three years. Of course, I'm not simply applying within that field; I'm literally going to each store in a mall. So be careful what conclusions you jump to; I'm going for freakin' retail here.

Healthcare and subsistence are generally pretty important to someone's welfare, Alyrium.

Dont try to play semantic games with the constitution Nitram. The founding fathers never intended a massive system of safety nets. What they intended was for taxes to provide for defense, and things that helped everyone regardless of social/economic status. Remember, words were used differently, and the concept of a welfare state did not even exist at the time.

You dare claim I'm the one playing with semantics when your defense is 'Uh, uh, uh, WORDS WERE DIFFERENT!', Alyrium? The phrasing is clear: Taxes are to protect the welfare of the people. Subsistence and medical care are absolutely vital to someone's welfare in this day and age, and those two plus education are equally vital to the nation's welfare as a first world nation.

Roads, post offices, fire departments(whos modern form Franklin invented BTW) those were the intent. Sorry if I am to much of a strict constuctionalist for some peoples liking. Now, if you want to amend the constitution, that is fine. Go ahead and try. Write senator Byrd and have hm introduce a constitutional amendment...

Playing semantics games and insisting you know the intent is not 'strict constitutionalism', Alyrium. It is lying and bullshit. It says general welfare, and for the general welfare of the nation, it is in the government's best interests to have a well educated, healthy populace.

Massive risk. ANd I have no credit. Credit can be very hard to get if you have no money..

Which is a bit of a problem. Again though, Real Estate...You could do well at it.

I will admit that's one career path I haven't investigated... Well, that and air traffic controller seem opening..

[SirNitram]

Oh.. As to this 'Taxation is slavery/stealing' bullshit. It's not. Your consent is implicit in remaining in the US. You want a voice in how the money is spent? It's this magic process called Democracy. You vote. You write your congressman. But no; the process isn't good enough for the Libertarians, probably because they realize they are in the extreme minority and their foolishness would get voted down.