Gibraltar-300 years of British Rule and Spanish Whining

[Glocksman]

BBC Story

The sovereignty of Gibraltar is not up for negotiation, Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon has said during a visit marking 300 years of UK rule there.

But Mr Hoon warned that as the European Union evolves and develops "there may be implications for Gibraltar".

Earlier 12,000 Gibraltar residents formed a human chain around the Rock.

Spain's Prime Minister Jose Luis Zapatero said such celebrations were "inappropriate" but called for calm and cautious "dialogue".

Human chain

An unofficial referendum in 2002 showed nearly 99% of Gibraltarians were opposed to any idea of joint rule between Britain and Spain.
Later the Royal Navy was handed the Freedom of the City of Gibraltar by the Rock's parliament as part of a string of celebratory events

Madrid wants the Rock returned to Spain but Gibraltarians want to stay British.

Mr Hoon welcomed the demand for a more constructive approach and said he would study any Spanish proposals.

But he added that the Rock's sovereignty "was not on the table".

Spanish foreign secretary Miguel Angel Moratinos said Mr Hoon's decision to attend was "unfriendly" and showed a clear lack of sensitivity by London.

Get over it. Gibraltar is British and has been for 300 years. What's next? Zapatero calling for the return of Cuba, Mexico, Florida and Texas to Spain?

The inhabitants of the island have spoken and the overwhelming majority are opposed to the island becoming Spanish.

Screw Spain with regards to Gibraltar.

[Rye]

I went to Gibraltar a few years ago, from talking with the people they're practically as British as me and don't want to go even remotely spanish. Spain just act like arseholes to them unwarrantedly.

[Beowulf]

You forgot California.

[Xenophobe3691]

You forgot California.

And the Phillipines

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

And 70% of South America.

[Sea Skimmer]

The inhabitants of the island have spoken and the overwhelming majority are opposed to the island becoming Spanish.

Gibraltar is a peninsula attached to Spain comrade, and its that land connection that keeps them wanting it back.

[TheDarkling]

I always find it amusing that the Spanish whine about our enclave on the Med but the Spanish owned territory in Morocco (Ceuta and Melilla) is apparently rightfully Spanish.

[acesand8s]

Castile (the fore-runner of Spain) took Gibralter in 1492 and lost it in 1704 during the War of Spanish Succession. Great Britain has held Gibralter since then.

1704 - 1492 = 212

2004 - 1704 = 300

Gibralter has been part of the UK longer than it was a part of Spain.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The inhabitants of the island have spoken and the overwhelming majority are opposed to the island becoming Spanish.

Gibraltar is a peninsula attached to Spain comrade, and its that land connection that keeps them wanting it back.

Dig a ditch!

[Cao Cao]

I just want to know what they want to do with it.
It's been Britain's for too long and it's full of British people. I mean come on. They might as well demand the Isle of Man or something.

[Gil Hamilton]

Spain can ask for dialogues all it wants, but Gibraltar has as much chance of going back to Spanish rule as the Falklands have going back to Argentina. It's a British rock and the citizens want to stay British.

[Colonel Olrik]

The absolute major reason the 20.000 inhabitants of Gibraltar want to remain under Britain is their condition as tax haven, and the fact that they don't pay IRS. That makes them very healthy, and makes me and many other tax-paying people feel no sympathy towards them. They speak spanish, they are hispanic in nature, and they're rich because they found a nice, legal hole where taxation laws don't apply.

If they could be independent, something made impossible by the British-Spanish treaty, they probably would, just to protect their little business.


I don't know much about Ceuta and Manilla, except for the fact that
1) They are spanish, not arabs. Speak spanish, have spanish culture, etc. Unlike between Britain-Spain, much more alike than different, there's a huge gap between Morocco and any western country.
2) Morocco is a shithole, not a developed EU country (see 1). Considering giving away Ceuta and Manilla would be akin to assraping the people living there.

Not saying that Gibraltar should be handed to Spain, mind you, and before that happens Spain should be forced to give Portugal Olivença, which they fucking conquered in the Napoleonic wars, when we were fighting alongside Britain and they were fighting alongside.. Napoleon. They promised to give us back the city after being defeated, legally it is ours and our claim is much stronger than the Spanish claim to Gibraltar, and yet.. So, fuck them.

[salm]

i want france, poland and all these other puny little countries back. we had them 60 years ago, so it´s our right to rule them now, too.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

If Spain wants Gibralter let them march their military in and take it.

[Gandalf]

i want france, poland and all these other puny little countries back. we had them 60 years ago, so it´s our right to rule them now, too.

What about Italy!

They had these places before any of you!

[Colonel Olrik]

If Spain wants Gibralter let them march their military in and take it.

Yes, that's precisely the way two EU nations are expected to solve their differences.

I'd love to see outlawed all fiscal havens in EU territory, no exceptions allowed. I'd love to see how strong their british patriotism would be after that.

[salm]

i want france, poland and all these other puny little countries back. we had them 60 years ago, so it´s our right to rule them now, too.

What about Italy!

They had these places before any of you!

all italians are spaniards. the spaniards don´t have the right to own the whole of europe because they´ve already got ceuta and manilla. that would be unfair. therefor god exists.

[TheDarkling]

Yes, that's precisely the way two EU nations are expected to solve their differences.

I'd love to see outlawed all fiscal havens in EU territory, no exceptions allowed. I'd love to see how strong their british patriotism would be after that.

Two EU nations should solve their differences by discussing the cross border issues that Spain is supposedly concerned with (tax haven/smuggling etc) instead the Spanish antagonise the people of Gibraltar and continuously complain that Britain has the temerity to treat British territory as British territory.

The Spanish may claim they are concerned about tax issues and the like but that isn't the source of their complaints, what does the visit of a Royal to the Rock have to do with tax haven status? What does a military parade have to do with the same? How is preventing a US ship from attending the celebrations (Yanks, exactly who are your best friends again? ) going to affect change in Gibraltar’s tax haven status? The simple answer is that these things have nothing to do with the tax haven status of Gibraltar but they are related to British sovereignty over the Rock, that is what bugs the Spanish.
Their complaints (however valid) are mere window dressing for their hurt pride and their continuing antagonism against both the people of Gibraltar and the United Kingdom will not result in any cooperation on the particular issues which in my opinion serves them right.

[Colonel Olrik]

I don't disagree with you, Darkling. I just don't care much about the Gibraltar inhabitants, either, and their "we're very british, although we are in the middle of spanish, look hispanic and talk spanish. Oh, and we like our money. Why can't we be independent anyway?" patriotic feelings.

[TheDarkling]

I don't disagree with you, Darkling. I just don't care much about the Gibraltar inhabitants, either, and their "we're very british, although we are in the middle of spanish, look hispanic and talk spanish. Oh, and we like our money. Why can't we be independent anyway?" patriotic feelings.

I am somewhat dubious as to whether the people of Gibraltar would want to be part of Spain even without their tax haven status, with all the stuff Spain has pulled on them I sure as hell wouldn't want to be under Madrid’s control.

Having never been to the Rock I cannot comment on how "Spanish" the people there are but I have spoken to people who have been there and they informed me they are closer to being British than Spanish however is is possible bias figured into their analysis.

[Colonel Olrik]

I am somewhat dubious as to whether the people of Gibraltar would want to be part of Spain even without their tax haven status, with all the stuff Spain has pulled on them I sure as hell wouldn't want to be under Madrid’s control.

Probably not, but their current cuddly status is the primary drive motivator, of that I have no doubt.

Having never been to the Rock I cannot comment on how "Spanish" the people there are but I have spoken to people who have been there and they informed me they are closer to being British than Spanish however is is possible bias figured into their analysis.

I've also never been there, but like you I know of people who did and say it's essentially mediterranic. However, from the CIA world book:

Ethnic groups:
Spanish, Italian, English, Maltese, Portuguese

Religions:
Roman Catholic 76.9%, Church of England 6.9%, Muslim 6.9%, Jewish 2.3%, none or other 7% (1991)

Languages:
English (used in schools and for official purposes), Spanish, Italian, Portuguese

Doesn't seem very British to me.

[TheDarkling]

I've also never been there, but like you I know of people who did and say it's essentially mediterranic. However, from the CIA world book:

Ethnic groups:
Spanish, Italian, English, Maltese, Portuguese

Religions:
Roman Catholic 76.9%, Church of England 6.9%, Muslim 6.9%, Jewish 2.3%, none or other 7% (1991)

Languages:
English (used in schools and for official purposes), Spanish, Italian, Portuguese

Doesn't seem very British to me.

Speaking as somebody who is Roman Catholic who lives in an area full of Italians, Poles, Indians, Pakistanis and Irish (just groups I know personally off the top of my head) I am forced to wonder whether you would consider my area to not be British either.

The fact that the people speak Spanish is hardly surprising but their official language is English nor does being a Roman Catholic preclude being British, what would determine it would be the culture of the people there which cannot easily be determined by such statistics.

The best solution for Gibraltar would be a devolved government on the order of Scotland however the Spanish will not accept further integration into Britain even if it is to their benefit.

[Colonel Olrik]

Speaking as somebody who is Roman Catholic who lives in an area full of Italians, Poles, Indians, Pakistanis and Irish (just groups I know personally off the top of my head) I am forced to wonder whether you would consider my area to not be British either.

He, not the same case. You live among an heterogeneous group of emmigrants from all over the world and the major religion in the UK is not Catholicism. In Gibraltar, except for the british traces they're all latin.

The fact that the people speak Spanish is hardly surprising but their official language is English nor does being a Roman Catholic preclude being British, what would determine it would be the culture of the people there which cannot easily be determined by such statistics.

Of course the official language is English. In Macau it was Portuguese. That doesn't mean it's the commonly used language. AFAIK, it is spanish, someone correct me if I happen to be wrong. Religion is merely another indicator of closeness, as you know it can be a source of major hatred. The simple fact that they're essentially Catholic puts them closer to the Iberian peninsula than if otherwise.

It's not as if there's a major cultural gap between Spanish and British cities, and being in the mediterranean I expect Gibraltar to be similar to Valencia, Barcelona, Málaga, Faro, etc.

The best solution for Gibraltar would be a devolved government on the order of Scotland however the Spanish will not accept further integration into Britain even if it is to their benefit.

If they stop having special previleges, it shouldn't make any difference. Some Spanish states have more independence from Madrid than Scotland has from London.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, and like you said the spaniards have been behaving like idiots. If they want Gibraltar back by all means, give us the region of Olivenza first. It's ours, a lot more than Gibraltar is Spanish.

[CJvR]

The inhabitants of the island have spoken and the overwhelming majority are opposed to the island becoming Spanish.

Gibraltar is a peninsula attached to Spain comrade, and its that land connection that keeps them wanting it back.

So? Dig a moat or something...

Writing from Landskrona, occupied by the Swedes since 1658!

[TheDarkling]

He, not the same case. You live among an heterogeneous group of emmigrants from all over the world and the major religion in the UK is not Catholicism. In Gibraltar, except for the british traces they're all latin.

You miss my point, just because Gibraltar has a mixture of races and a Roman Catholic majority doesn't mean it is closer culturally to Spain.
10% of the population is British born and 7% follow the church of England, I doubt you will find those figures in Spain(although given the rate at which people from Britain seem to be going to Spain to setup pubs it may not be long until you can).
There are also about 10,000 Gibraltarians living in Britain which means we have over a third of what exist in Gibraltar itself, they come here for University education etc, they are closer to us than to Spain.

Of course the official language is English. In Macau it was Portuguese. That doesn't mean it's the commonly used language. AFAIK, it is spanish, someone correct me if I happen to be wrong. Religion is merely another indicator of closeness, as you know it can be a source of major hatred. The simple fact that they're essentially Catholic puts them closer to the Iberian peninsula than if otherwise.

Being Catholic doesn't make them closer to being Spanish than British, I'm Catholic and I am certainly closer to being British than Irish.
As for the language, they are all schooled in English so everybody there can speak it.
As for the common language the people on alt.gibraltar say that English is the main language (spoken in all businesses) with Janito (made up of English, Spanish, Maltese and Italian) being a local custom language.
Apparently younger generations speak less Spanish than older ones and people are more fluent in English than Spanish

It's not as if there's a major cultural gap between Spanish and British cities, and being in the mediterranean I expect Gibraltar to be similar to Valencia, Barcelona, Málaga, Faro, etc.

And yet the people of Gibraltar don't feel Spanish, they feel either British or (more likely) Janito.

If they stop having special previleges, it shouldn't make any difference. Some Spanish states have more independence from Madrid than Scotland has from London.

Scotland is essentially separate apart from tax, trade (which is run from Brussels) and defence/foreign policy, Gibraltar would get a similar deal and while it would solve many of Spain’s gripes they wouldn't like it because they don't care about it being a tax haven but about it not being Spanish.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, and like you said the spaniards have been behaving like idiots. If they want Gibraltar back by all means, give us the region of Olivenza first. It's ours, a lot more than Gibraltar is Spanish.

Have at them, Britain has you back as always.