Kerry says plan will reduce deficit 50% in 4 yrs

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Post by Stormbringer »

Okay. Let's ask the GOP what they think of the surplus. First of all what does it consist of GOP?
It consists of the same thing it did then. Borrowed cash that both sides were blindly assuming we could pay back.
1. The “on-budget” surplus is a combination of people paying their federal income taxes and other revenues. Over 10 years this portion of the surplus is going to be at least $800 billion dollars.
Again, that's over ten years (the key part of the equation since it was all down the road), as in it wasn't going to happen till 2008 or so. The surplus of the day way borrowed against this.
2. The “off-budget” or Social Security surplus comes from payroll taxes collected to fund Social Security, as well as the interest on these taxes. Over 10 years this portion of the surplus will be about $1.8 trillion.
Once again, it's over ten years and we hadn't seen a dime when they started trying to spend it.
Hmm....people paying their taxes (I guess if you CUT them those numbers go down right?)
They sure do. And when the internet bubble broke in '99 that vary thing happened. Funny how that works.
OK, maybe I'm being a smart ass. What else do you have to say about the surplus GOP?
None of this is news. The surplus was all down the road or as they so artfully put it "over ten years." Once the economy started slumping and then outright tanked the inevitable happened.
Hmmm....Increased tax income...but wait Bush CUT those taxes didn't he?? And Social Security surplus. Where's the smoke and mirrors? Where's the myth from the GOP's own paper on the surplus.
Yup, Bush cut the taxes pushing up the deficit we were running.

The smoke and mirrors part is that the 'surplus' wouldn't be realized, not in the wer'e actually getting more money sense until 2008. The money that was spent was borrowed from Social Security funds against the surpluses down the line.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Bugsby wrote:once it hits Congress it will be stripped down to a much cheaper plan. It always is.
HAHAHAAHAHAHHAH

I've never met a politician who didn't like pork.

Seriously, to cut the deficit, you at least institute an austerity regime,
and CUT SPENDING, not add huuuuge amounts of bloat.

That's one of the big legimitate criticisms of Bush; he ran on a platform
of fiscal conservatism back in 2000, but when he got into office, he
promptly began spending it like a drunken sailor. :evil:

What makes you think that John Kerry will magically reverse everything,
and turn toxic waste into yummy candy while he's at it?
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Stormbringer wrote:Now what I want to know is, how does he think that raising business taxes is going to do good things for our troubled economy?
By lowering them for the people with lower incomes I'm guessing.
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Post by The Cleric »

Alright, it looks like some peopler (hint: Stravo) need a refresher course in trickle down economics.

When taxes are hiked, no one wants to spend money because the government is taking more on their income and property. That drives down government revenue resulting from sales and capital gains from investemnts (stock market, real estate). The economy falters as no one really spends money, then people spend less as they have no confidence in their continued ability to make money, resulting in a snowball leading to depression.

When taxes are cut, on the other hand, people are more likely to spend money. Wealthy people buy more services, build more houses, invest more. As they spen money, the government gains from taxing their spending. However, the rest of that money flows down and is re-spent by the less wealthy, resulting in more tax on the same chunk of money. As people see all of this money flowing around, they become more confident in hte economy and more likely to spend money, since they will be able to earn more.
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Post by Iceberg »

Too bad trickle-down economics is pure crank science.
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Post by The Cleric »

Tell that to my dad. His business is based on it, and he's doing incredibly well.
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Post by The Cleric »

Damn no edit button.

I believe it works simply because I've seen it work so well for years now. I can ask his take on it, he explains it so much better than I do.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

However, by bypassing trickle-down effect, something I'm not convinced of at all and cutting taxes directly at those who it benefits we give the largest portion of society more money to throw around than just the few richest.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

StormTrooperTR889 wrote:Tell that to my dad. His business is based on it, and he's doing incredibly well.
Yeah why wouldn't it do well for the owner, it's the employees we're talking about, why not give them the money directly rather than use this trickle effect?
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His Divine Shadow wrote:
StormTrooperTR889 wrote:Tell that to my dad. His business is based on it, and he's doing incredibly well.
Yeah why wouldn't it do well for the owner, it's the employees we're talking about, why not give them the money directly rather than use this trickle effect?
Because those people don't have the capital nessecary to drive major coprerations and research and the like. And allowing it to trickle down means you tax everytime it changes hands, while making everyone happy and more confident in the economy.
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Post by SWPIGWANG »

StormTrooperTR889 wrote:Because those people don't have the capital nessecary to drive major coprerations and research and the like.
Not really when lots of them have stock and corporate bond holdings from retirement funds whatnot. They also drive demand, which can be a far better short term economic simuli than supply, which take years if to fully kick in.

I hate economics, as amatures like me really can't get a handle on how it all works.......
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Post by Mr Flibble »

StormTrooperTR889 wrote:Because those people don't have the capital nessecary to drive major coprerations and research and the like. And allowing it to trickle down means you tax everytime it changes hands, while making everyone happy and more confident in the economy.
You are correct individually they don't have the capital to perform those things, but COLLECTIVELY they do.

Trickle down economics is fundamentally flawed, it ignores that there is greater benefit to the economy if the masses, can spend more, not the other way round. The wealthy are already efectively hoarding capital, by reducing taxes on them, you simply allow them to hoard more capital. When those in middle class and below income brackets get tax relief, they are more likely to spend that money, what does spnding it do: PUT IT INTO THE ECONOMY, this can be taxed all the way up every time it changes hands (tax does not necesarily have to flow down.

The Australian economy has being growing steadily for many years, this growth iirc has been driven largely by consumer spending, this has encouraged investment by companies in order to maximise their cut of this consumer spending, note spending -> investment. Economies grow from the ground up, like plants.

I suspect "trickle down" (which I might add I have only ever heard used in the context of america) is used as an excuse to reduce tax on the rich (thus looking like you are giving a tax cut, but it is cheaper than reducing it on middle/lower incomes as this is where most tax revenue comes from) and also as an excuse to reward the politicians corporate buddies.

On the rest of the debate, I would like to point out, that on top of Australia's steady economic growth, our government has maintained budget surplases, reduced our debt and yet we maintain a sizeable welfare program, have cheaper tertiary education, have pretty much free, to cheap healthcare for all, so it is not impossible to have decent social programs whilst maintaining a balanced budget and sustaining the economy, and if Australia can do it, the US should be able to, as you have more wealth to work with.

That said this is all relative, I'm still voting against our current government.
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Post by Jalinth »

Iceberg wrote:Too bad trickle-down economics is pure crank science.
Fiscal conservatives need to be on the endangered species list in the US. You have tax and spend (Kerry) and tax cut and spend (Bush) as your choices.

The line-item veto would be nice but I thought the US courts basically said that it would take a constitutional amendment to make it work.

I'm not sure who would be worse on the protectionism front. Bush said all the right things, but ended up being quite the protectionist. Kerry could be worse, but the US is already fighting with the WTO so unsure whether he'd want to start a full blown trade war.
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Post by PainRack »

Mr Flibble wrote: The Australian economy has being growing steadily for many years, this growth iirc has been driven largely by consumer spending, this has encouraged investment by companies in order to maximise their cut of this consumer spending, note spending -> investment. Economies grow from the ground up, like plants.
I should further note that Thailand, under PM Thaksin, has seen a solid economic growth occur, under the ground up theory. By eliminating debt and providing cheap loans to peasant villages(decried as an election ploy), the economy of Thailand has recovered from the Asian finanicial crisis and is indeed, one of the few booming economies in SEA.
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Post by Stormbringer »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Now what I want to know is, how does he think that raising business taxes is going to do good things for our troubled economy?
By lowering them for the people with lower incomes I'm guessing.
Which isn't at all likely to offset the fact that corporations now have a much heavier tax burden across the board, especially at a time when the economy is bad shape anyway. The only way that will matter is if it's a truly enourmous tax cut, which runs contradictory to a lot of his other promises.

So all in all, either he's lying about a lot of this (Kerry make BS promise, who'd imagine the day?) or he has no clue at all what he's doing.
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Post by Andrew J. »

StormTrooperTR889 wrote:When taxes are hiked, no one wants to spend money because the government is taking more on their income and property. That drives down government revenue resulting from sales and capital gains from investemnts (stock market, real estate). The economy falters as no one really spends money, then people spend less as they have no confidence in their continued ability to make money, resulting in a snowball leading to depression.
Tax increases-especially tax increases for the wealthy-are not usually largte enough to cause the sort of problems you describe. The rich become rich by being cheap (relative to their personal wealth, of course) and they wouldn't really spend that much more if they had the extra money.
When taxes are cut, on the other hand, people are more likely to spend money. Wealthy people buy more services, build more houses, invest more. As they spen money, the government gains from taxing their spending. However, the rest of that money flows down and is re-spent by the less wealthy, resulting in more tax on the same chunk of money. As people see all of this money flowing around, they become more confident in hte economy and more likely to spend money, since they will be able to earn more.
The data do not support your statments. When the Reagan tax cuts were implemented, the increased spending was not enough to make up for the losses from the lower rates. At our current tax rate we're still behind the apex of the Laffer curve-that is, lowering taxes will lower overall government revenue, and raising taxes will, up to a point, raise government revenue.

Fixed quoting.
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Spinsanity says they're both full of shit:
What is Spinsanity? It's a Web site whose proprietors scrutinize statements by our political leaders, candidates, journalists, and pundits for honesty, fairness, and rhetorical soundness. Each week on the Commentary Page, the good folks at Spinsanity will restore sanity to the spin of statements from the right and the left. Today: the state of debate in the presidential campaigns.

Double-talk on deficit reduction

John Kerry has made cutting the deficit in half one of the centerpieces of his economic agenda. The Democratic presidential candidate has claimed in numerous appearances and interviews that, as he said in his acceptance speech at his party's convention last week, "our plan will cut the deficit in half in four years."

But while he may have such a goal, Kerry is inaccurate when he says his plan "will cut the deficit in half." As the Wall Street Journal noted in a news report last week, the senator's plan is missing the cost of a policy change he claims to support: fixing the alternative minimum tax (AMT) so that it doesn't affect middle-class taxpayers, which an Urban Institute economist estimated would cost $500 billion over the next 10 years. Kerry's plan also includes many vague promises, such as $300 billion in savings over 10 years from "cutting corporate welfare." In a study conducted earlier this year, the Washington Post found that Kerry's proposed spending exceeded the revenue that would be generated by his tax plan in the 2005-08 period by at least $165 billion.

Kerry's spin may sound familiar. That's because it's very similar to a phony plan President Bush has been touting that he claims will cut the deficit in half over the next four years. Like Kerry, the President reaches that goal only by omitting major costs, such as fixing the AMT and occupying and rebuilding Iraq and Afghanistan.

How do politicians, especially the President, get away with such dishonesty? As we show in our new book, the Bush White House has changed national politics by using dishonest public relations tactics to sell nearly all its major policies.

For example, Bush has repeatedly proclaimed from the stump this year that, as he put it on July 14, "first of all, we said, if you pay taxes, you're going to get relief. In other words, everybody that pays taxes should get tax relief... . The best way to provide fairness in tax relief is to reduce the rates of everybody who pays. And that's what happened, as you recall."

While the tax cut Bush successfully enacted in 2001 reduced rates for everyone who pays federal income taxes, it provided no benefits to the millions of Americans who pay payroll taxes as well as state and local taxes. By stripping the claim of qualification, Bush exaggerates how widely the benefits of the tax cut were distributed - the same tactic he used in selling his 2001 and 2003 tax cuts.

Bush and other White House officials have also misrepresented the number of stem-cell lines available for federally funded research, understated or ignored the impact of his tax cuts on the federal budget, distorted prewar intelligence about Iraq, and attempted to revise those prewar claims in the post-war debate, among many other examples.

Kerry has frequently taken a similar approach. For example, he and his campaign repeatedly misstated the number of jobs lost under President Bush by using private sector figures that exclude gains in the government sector. The sound bite that 3 million jobs had been lost was a frequent Kerry refrain, even after data disproving it based on private sector figures alone became available.

The campaign has also constructed phony statistics of a "Bush tax" and "middle-class misery index" based on hand-picked economic indicators, both of which echo Bush's misleading use of statistics in campaigning for his tax cuts. And early this year, it falsely accused Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R., Ga.) and Republican National Committee chairman Ed Gillespie of questioning Kerry's patriotism when they actually criticized his record on defense issues.

President Bush has accelerated the communications wars beyond even Reagan and Clinton, and Sen. Kerry is posed to follow suit. As we enter the final stages of the general election, it's important to remember the consequences of the win-at-all-costs mentality that now pervades national politics. In the arms race of deception, citizens always lose.

Ben Fritz, Bryan Keefer and Brendan Nyhan are the editors of Spinsanity (www.spinsanity.org). Their new book, "All the President's Spin: Geroge W. Bush, the Media and the Truth," has just been published. They can be reached at feedback@spinsanity.org. Copyright 2004 by Ben Fritz, Bryan Keefer and Brendan Nyhan.
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Post by Durandal »

Okay, so they're both full of shit. I'll go with the guy who can speak intelligibly.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Durandal wrote:Okay, so they're both full of shit. I'll go with the guy who can speak intelligibly.
That's the problem, they can't. Bush messes up and misplaces words,
while Kerry speaks in mind numbing sentences that are remarkable
for their tortured logic chain.
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MKSheppard wrote:
Durandal wrote:Okay, so they're both full of shit. I'll go with the guy who can speak intelligibly.
That's the problem, they can't. Bush messes up and misplaces words,
while Kerry speaks in mind numbing sentences that are remarkable
for their tortured logic chain.
If Kerry gets elected, there aren't going to calendars and book filled with his bungled quotes.
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Durandal wrote:If Kerry gets elected, there aren't going to calendars and book filled with his bungled quotes.
I'm at JohnKerry.com, but I can't find his plan to reduce hair pollution. Nor can I find how he's going to use of American special forces to commit terrorist actions. :cry:
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Master of Ossus wrote:
Durandal wrote:If Kerry gets elected, there aren't going to calendars and book filled with his bungled quotes.
I'm at JohnKerry.com, but I can't find his plan to reduce hair pollution. Nor can I find how he's going to use of American special forces to commit terrorist actions. :cry:
Eh?
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Durandal wrote:
I wrote:I'm at JohnKerry.com, but I can't find his plan to reduce hair pollution. Nor can I find how he's going to use of American special forces to commit terrorist actions. :cry:
Eh?
Those are both mis-statements he made during his acceptance speech at the Democratic National Convention: he complained that hair pollution was a problem in the US, and promised to double the size of American special forces groups for use in committing terrorist actions across the globe.

Anytime you have someone who spends basically their entire life in the public eye, they're going to mess up and say the wrong thing. In the past, most of the time reporters have just laughed since they know what they SHOULD have said, but in recent years reporters duly record the mis-statement for later use.
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Post by Iceberg »

While the occasional misstep is expected, NO politician even remotely compares to the fumbling, bumbling, miserable excuse for speech that President Bush can manage with his execrable abuse of the English language. Except maybe Warren Harding.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Iceberg wrote:While the occasional misstep is expected, NO politician even remotely compares to the fumbling, bumbling, miserable excuse for speech that President Bush can manage with his execrable abuse of the English language. Except maybe Warren Harding.
Well, let's see. Kerry's speech ran for about 45 minutes and he made two pretty serious mistakes that are worth making fun of him for. If we generously say that he was really nervous and having a bad day, and that he only makes a third as many mistakes normally, and that he only spends 12 hours/day in the public eye, and that he gets 65 days off per year, he's still making well over 3000 noteworthy mistakes a year.

The original claim was that no one would make calendars and other memorabilia making fun of Kerry's misstatements. That may be true, but if it IS true, then it's not because he isn't saying stupid things.
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