McCain defends Kerry against Bush-campaign smear ad...

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-08-05 01:31pm

WASHINGTON (AP) — Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.
"It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me," McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush. (Related items: Group's ad says Kerry lied | View the ad)

The 60-second ad features Vietnam veterans who accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of lying about his decorated Vietnam War record and betraying his fellow veterans by later opposing the conflict.

"When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry," one of the veterans, Larry Thurlow, says in the ad. Thurlow didn't serve on Kerry's swiftboat, but says he witnessed the events that led to Kerry winning a Bronze Star and the last of his three Purple Hearts. Kerry's crewmates support the candidate and call him a hero.

The ad, scheduled to air in a few markets in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin, was produced by Stevens, Reed, Curcio and Potham, the same team that produced McCain's ads in 2000.

"I wish they hadn't done it," McCain said of his former advisers. "I don't know if they knew all the facts."

Asked if the White House knew about the ad or helped find financing for it, McCain said, "I hope not, but I don't know. But I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad."

Later, McCain said the Bush campaign has denied any involvement and added, "I can't believe the president would pull such a cheap stunt."

The White House and Bush-Cheney campaign did not address McCain's call that they repudiate the spot, though a Bush spokesman said the campaign does not question Kerry's highly decorated war service. McCain is co-chair of Bush's campaign in Arizona.

In 2000, Bush's supporters sponsored a rumor campaign against McCain in the South Carolina primary, helping Bush win the primary and the nomination. McCain's supporters have never forgiven the Bush team.

McCain said that's all in the past to him, but he's speaking out against the anti-Kerry ad because "it reopens all the old wounds of the Vietnam War, which I spent the last 35 years trying to heal."

"I deplore this kind of politics," McCain said. "I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I think George Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War."

McCain himself spent more than five years in a Vietnam prisoner of war camp. A bona fide war hero, McCain, like Kerry, used his war record as the foundation of his presidential campaign.

The Kerry campaign has denounced the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, saying none of the men in the ad served on the boat that Kerry commanded. Three veterans on Kerry's boat that day — Jim Rassmann, who says Kerry saved his life, Gene Thorson and Del Sandusky, the driver on Kerry's boat, said the group was lying on all fronts.

They say Kerry was injured, and Rassmann called the group's account "pure fabrication."

The leader of the group, retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, said none of the 13 veterans in the commercial served on Kerry's boat but rather were in other swiftboats within 50 yards of Kerry's. The group claims that there was no gunfire on the day Kerry pulled Rassmann from a muddy river in the Mekong Delta and that Kerry's arm was not wounded, as he has claimed.

"What we have is a fabrication that led to Kerry getting his Bronze Star and his last Purple Heart," said Thurlow, who said he commanded a swiftboat near Kerry's.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-08-05 01:46pm

If there's one thing I've learned during George W. Bush's tenure, it's that there's nothing he could do that his followers won't make excuses for. This contemptible ad will be no exception, I'm sure.

So the "men who served with Kerry" turn out to have been on other boats that were merely in the general vicinity, yet they offer what is proferred as first-hand testimony of what happened to him? This is, sadly, par for the course when it comes to the Bush campaign team. It's simply how they do business, and they are so completely devoid of ethics that they don't see the problem with it.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-08-05 01:51pm

It's not a Bush campaign ad.

McCain may be right to condemn the ad, but this bit pissed me off:

McCain said that's all in the past to him, but he's speaking out against the anti-Kerry ad because "it reopens all the old wounds of the Vietnam War, which I spent the last 35 years trying to heal."

Bull-fucking-shit. Both McCain and Kerry have run on their Vietnam service at different times, to different extents; how the fuck is that not "reopening old wounds"?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-08-05 01:52pm

Once again McCain proves that he's a politician with an actual conscience.

desertjedi · Post by **desertjedi** » 2004-08-05 01:53pm

The Swiftboast Veterans for Truth claim to be non-partisan and not involved with the Bush campaign... of course what they say doesn't make it true.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-08-05 01:54pm

The Kernel wrote:Once again McCain proves that he's a politician with an actual conscience.

Which makes me wonder why he officially endorsed Bush.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-08-05 01:54pm

Joe wrote:It's not a Bush campaign ad.

Are you really going to split hairs over whether or not PAC's are at least guided by the politicians they represent? Bush may not be personally responsible for the ad, but he should take responsibility to ensure that it is condemed for being tripe.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-08-05 01:54pm

Joe wrote:It's not a Bush campaign ad.

McCain may be right to condemn the ad, but this bit pissed me off:
McCain said that's all in the past to him, but he's speaking out against the anti-Kerry ad because "it reopens all the old wounds of the Vietnam War, which I spent the last 35 years trying to heal."
Bull-fucking-shit. Both McCain and Kerry have run on their Vietnam service at different times, to different extents; how the fuck is that not "reopening old wounds"?

Because being proud of your military service and trying to assail veterans for perceived disloyalty are two different things, for fuck's sake. Do I really need to spell this out for you? One is not divisive, the other is. One does not reopen old wounds, the other does. Would you like a diagram?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-05 01:54pm

Galvatron wrote:
The Kernel wrote:Once again McCain proves that he's a politician with an actual conscience.
Which makes me wonder why he officially endorsed Bush.

Bush is very good at bullshitting, would be my guess.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-08-05 01:55pm

Galvatron wrote:
The Kernel wrote:Once again McCain proves that he's a politician with an actual conscience.
Which makes me wonder why he officially endorsed Bush.

For the same reason that Colin Powell hasn't deserted Bush; a strict sense of party loyalty, probably the result of years of military service.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-08-05 01:55pm

SirNitram wrote:
Galvatron wrote:
The Kernel wrote:Once again McCain proves that he's a politician with an actual conscience.
Which makes me wonder why he officially endorsed Bush.
Bush is very good at bullshitting, would be my guess.

A better guess is that John McCain knows how to follow orders.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-08-05 01:58pm

I would also say that perhaps another reason McCain doesn't defect is that he doesn't want to be on the wrong end of the Republican propeganda machine again. Anyone remember the push polls that accused McCain of cheating on his wife and fathering an illegitamate daughter with a woman of a different race (oh they just had to play the race card...)? I doubt anyone would want to have a repeat of that experience.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-08-05 02:08pm

Well Jesus Christ, John, do you support the guy or not? He's pissed at Bush's campaign practices, but isn't he supporting Bush's campaign?

desertjedi · Post by **desertjedi** » 2004-08-05 02:14pm

I have to admit, in the 2000 race, I liked McCain (being from Arizona helped) but as of lately he seems so conflicted between the party and the President. Perhaps he sees support Bush as the lesser of two evils?

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2004-08-05 02:16pm

desertjedi wrote:I have to admit, in the 2000 race, I liked McCain (being from Arizona helped) but as of lately he seems so conflicted between the party and the President. Perhaps he sees support Bush as the lesser of two evils?

Or he's hoping to curry enough favor with the party that he can make a real bid for the presidency in 2008.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-08-05 02:20pm

Galvatron wrote:
The Kernel wrote:Once again McCain proves that he's a politician with an actual conscience.
Which makes me wonder why he officially endorsed Bush.

Because in the end, McCain is a loyal Republican and did what he knew was best for his party. The line that caught my eye was "The same thing happened to me." What he fails to elaborate on was the series of dirty smear campiagns launched against him by the Bush camp when he was runnning in the primaries. The Republicans had all but crowned Bush before the primaries then proceeded to punish McCain when he started to make a stong showing against Bush.

I would have voted for McCain then and Now.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-08-05 02:21pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Joe wrote:It's not a Bush campaign ad.

McCain may be right to condemn the ad, but this bit pissed me off:
McCain said that's all in the past to him, but he's speaking out against the anti-Kerry ad because "it reopens all the old wounds of the Vietnam War, which I spent the last 35 years trying to heal."
Bull-fucking-shit. Both McCain and Kerry have run on their Vietnam service at different times, to different extents; how the fuck is that not "reopening old wounds"?
Because being proud of your military service and trying to assail veterans for perceived disloyalty are two different things, for fuck's sake. Do I really need to spell this out for you? One is not divisive, the other is. One does not reopen old wounds, the other does. Would you like a diagram?

Of course some one can campaign on their service record but how dare anyone say anything that might question it.

Kerry's made a point of stumping on his record of service. I think it's only proper that he be questioned on it and the accusations he made about the service after he left and became an anti-war demonstrator.

I think ad in question is a load of crap. It seems that it's pretty damn disgenious and out to be treated as such. I'm glad to see it comndemned on those grounds. But I don't think a blanket we don't question it is right either.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-08-05 02:21pm

McCain is like a disgruntled Catholic. He's worked up enough moral courage to speak his mind about the atrocious practices of the organization, but he still dutifully goes to Mass.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-08-05 02:22pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Joe wrote:It's not a Bush campaign ad.

McCain may be right to condemn the ad, but this bit pissed me off: Bull-fucking-shit. Both McCain and Kerry have run on their Vietnam service at different times, to different extents; how the fuck is that not "reopening old wounds"?
Because being proud of your military service and trying to assail veterans for perceived disloyalty are two different things, for fuck's sake. Do I really need to spell this out for you? One is not divisive, the other is. One does not reopen old wounds, the other does. Would you like a diagram?
Of course some one can campaign on their service record but how dare anyone say anything that might question it. Kerry's made a point of stumping on his record of service. I think it's only proper that he be questioned on it and the accusations he made about the service after he left and became an anti-war demonstrator.

Hey dumb-ass, we were talking about McCain, not Kerry. Learn to read.

I think ad in question is a load of crap. It seems that it's pretty damn disgenious and out to be treated as such. I'm glad to see it comndemned on those grounds. But I don't think a blanket we don't question it is right either.

Especially when you don't bother even reading what you're responding to before launching into your standard anti-Kerry mode.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-08-05 02:24pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Because being proud of your military service and trying to assail veterans for perceived disloyalty are two different things, for fuck's sake. Do I really need to spell this out for you? One is not divisive, the other is. One does not reopen old wounds, the other does. Would you like a diagram?
Of course some one can campaign on their service record but how dare anyone say anything that might question it. Kerry's made a point of stumping on his record of service. I think it's only proper that he be questioned on it and the accusations he made about the service after he left and became an anti-war demonstrator.
Hey dumb-ass, we were talking about McCain, not Kerry. Learn to read.
I think ad in question is a load of crap. It seems that it's pretty damn disgenious and out to be treated as such. I'm glad to see it comndemned on those grounds. But I don't think a blanket we don't question it is right either.
Especially when you don't bother even reading what you're responding to before launching into your standard anti-Kerry mode.

I don't see anything at all that's applying exclusively to McCain. In fact it seems like both are being referenced to me.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-08-05 02:43pm

Stormbringer wrote:I don't see anything at all that's applying exclusively to McCain. In fact it seems like both are being referenced to me.

Since the argument was specifically over McCain's "reopening old wounds" comment, the point under dispute is indeed exclusively referenced to McCain. Your tragic inability to read and comprehend English, even when your mistakes are pointed out to you, is not my fault.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-08-05 02:46pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:I don't see anything at all that's applying exclusively to McCain. In fact it seems like both are being referenced to me.
Since the argument was specifically over McCain's "reopening old wounds" comment, the point under dispute is indeed exclusively referenced to McCain. Your tragic inability to read and comprehend English, even when your mistakes are pointed out to you, is not my fault.

Given that it was made in defense of Kerry I fail to see how it applies exclusively to McCain. I can't help it that your response to it is to simply go for the ad hominem attack.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-08-05 02:49pm

Stormbringer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:I don't see anything at all that's applying exclusively to McCain. In fact it seems like both are being referenced to me.
Since the argument was specifically over McCain's "reopening old wounds" comment, the point under dispute is indeed exclusively referenced to McCain. Your tragic inability to read and comprehend English, even when your mistakes are pointed out to you, is not my fault.
Given that it was made in defense of Kerry I fail to see how it applies exclusively to McCain.

No, it was made in defense of McCain's COMMENT, moron. Joe did not defend or attack the ad itself; he was talking about McCain's "reopening old wounds" comment. Read his fucking post again.

I can't help it that your response to it is to simply go for the ad hominem attack.

More proof that you sold your brain to gypsies. An ad-hominem attack evades the point by focusing on the author. I addressed your point (several times, in fact). I see you're subscribing to the three-year old's definition of ad-hominem where any insult automatically invalidates any argument it's attached to

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-08-05 02:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:McCain is like a disgruntled Catholic. He's worked up enough moral courage to speak his mind about the atrocious practices of the organization, but he still dutifully goes to Mass.

He's more like a Catholic who got sexually molested as an altar server and still goes to mass.

SyntaxVorlon · Post by **SyntaxVorlon** » 2004-08-05 03:07pm

Durandal wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:McCain is like a disgruntled Catholic. He's worked up enough moral courage to speak his mind about the atrocious practices of the organization, but he still dutifully goes to Mass.
He's more like a Catholic who got sexually molested as an altar server and still goes to mass.

"Show me on the doll where they criticized your military record."

If anything I can see Kerry vs McCain being an interesting fight for the presidency.