TIE Fighter "solar panels"

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

It's unlikely that those radiator panels have secondary function as solar panels. The additional power from sunlight is insignificant next to the power of a starfighter capable of entering and escaping planet's gravity well.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/tie.html#wings

[Master of Ossus]

You guys are also missing a fundamental problem with the dual-functionality idea. If the purpose of the panels is to radiate energy away from the ship (as seems to be the consensus in terms of the PRIMARY function), why the hell would it have the SECONDARY function of capturing MORE energy and bringing that back into the ship? The secondary function is directly contrary to the primary one, and does not make sense from a design standpoint.

[omegaLancer]

The Solar panels may not harvest photon, the stars also emitted proton, electrons, nuetrons, neutronios and varies exotic particles ( like Axions)
...

In the case of solar Fusion, protons ( and Nuetrons too) are the fuel of the process, the amount of protons collected would be very minicule unless the fighter is ploting into the solar winds. ( but the fact that the fuel tank of a Tie fighter is very small, every little bit may help)...

another potential particle that could be collected would be Axions, A Axion would decay relaying 2 photons of x rays, much more energic than normal photons that would be released by the star, providing alot more power than normal solar cells. But at present no attempts to capture or prove the existent of axions have been successful.

OR it be combination of both and normal solar power...

[Beowulf]

another potential particle that could be collected would be Axions, A Axion would decay relaying 2 photons of x rays, much more energic than normal photons that would be released by the star, providing alot more power than normal solar cells. But at present no attempts to capture or prove the existent of axions have been successful.

WTF is an axion?

[Master of Ossus]

The Solar panels may not harvest photon, the stars also emitted proton, electrons, nuetrons, neutronios and varies exotic particles ( like Axions)
...

In the case of solar Fusion, protons ( and Nuetrons too) are the fuel of the process, the amount of protons collected would be very minicule unless the fighter is ploting into the solar winds. ( but the fact that the fuel tank of a Tie fighter is very small, every little bit may help)...

another potential particle that could be collected would be Axions, A Axion would decay relaying 2 photons of x rays, much more energic than normal photons that would be released by the star, providing alot more power than normal solar cells. But at present no attempts to capture or prove the existent of axions have been successful.

OR it be combination of both and normal solar power...

Okay, but none of that provides either sufficient mass or power to significant aid the maneuvering of a several ton starfighter. It also does not provide enough power for life support, except under IDEAL conditions. Why would such a function be needed or even included? It would clearly cost more than it would justify, especially since TIE fighters are designed to be short range, expendible interceptors.

[omegaLancer]

A axion is a weak interacting massive particle ( wimp) a form of dark matter. It created from the magnetic momentum of other particles like Quarks, and is used to explain why composite particles ( Particle made of quarks)have preset spin ( the particle really isnot spinning, and what is spin is better explain else where) of 1/2 ( when the fact is that Quarks and the host of virtual particles would give you a wide range of value on a particle to particle bases, even over time).

Stars would be a constant source of Axions, so would have the big bang ( but those would have decay away).

Exposed to a electromagnetic field ( like microwaves) Axions would decay to become a photon ( A single, I screw up when I said 2) usually in the low x ray range.. Using microwave, scientist are looking for Axion, ( they would explain why the sun surface temperature is not as high as it should be) and cooling of nuetron stars, and dark matter..

[omegaLancer]

Even if this could provide a extra kilowatt or two it would be helpful. A space battle is part Dogfight, part energy management.. Hi power to weight ratio are an advantage to manuevering, and being able to replenish your power source means a longer range and time in combat..

Image the advantage of also be able to draw power from an exterior source
, you could shut down main reactor and drift, making it harder to detect a potential ambush.

It would be the different between defeat and victory, having to return to the mother ship for additional fuel. Worse come to worse, head into the solar wind, until your tanks are filled and get back into the fight..

[omegaLancer]

this is from The Alternate View" columns of John G. Cramer , about the use of Axion as a power source... On the face of it the power addition is small, till the ship start moving.. in this case it can literally added greatily to power load of a starship..

a Axions have never been observed and (like magnetic monopoles) may be only a part of the mythology of particle physics. They are alleged to be tiny uncharged sloshings back and forth of space itself, sloshings which have both mass and energy but not much of either. It is estimated that the axion has a mass about 1/400,000,000 of an electron mass, and that there should be about half a trillion of them in each cubic centimeter of space in the vicinity of the earth, more per cc near the galactic center, but only 200,000 per cc in intergalactic space.

Axions have a geometrical resemblance to an electric and a magnetic field oriented parallel to each other. In theory, this property can be exploited to convert axions into photons (radio/light/gamma-rays) through the use of intense electric and/or magnetic fields. If cosmic axions were converted to photons, their estimated mass-energy would make electromagnetic microwaves like those used in home microwave ovens. It has been suggested that the axion-saturated space in our vicinity constitutes a "population inversion" of the sort exploited for lasers, and that under the proper circumstances it might be possible to make an axion-maser which converts this hidden energy embedded in space itself into a coherent beam of microwaves. Zap!! However, before getting serious about building a pocket size axion-maser for barbecueing the opposition it should be realized that the available microwave power would at best be only about 3 milliwatts/cm2 (about 2% of the energy content of sunshine on the equator at noon). This would make for a rather slow barbecue, but might be a useful energy source for other purposes.

However, the axion energy calculated depends on how rapidly axions enter the converion apparatus. I used a velocity of 0.1% c (light-speed), about the rate of motion of our solar system through the galaxy. If this speed goes up the available energy goes up accordingly. At near-light speeds the available axion-power would be about 3 watts/cm2 times × 2, where =(v/c) is the velocity relative to light, and 2=1/[1-2] is the square of the relativistic mass-increase factor. At a velocity of 99.9% c the available power from axions would be about 1500 watts/cm2, enough power for a modest energy-efficient space drive. And the faster you go, the more such power becomes available.

The conversion of axions to photons has another interesting property: it makes momentum (or recoil thrust). Every axion which is converted to a photon with the same total energy and going in the same direction produces a momentum kick of p = mc × (1-) where m is the axion rest mass. This would seem to make possible a fuelless "axion ramjet" which takes axions in the front and shoots photons out the back, pushing us through the universe in the process. However, there are several "engineering details" to be worked out. The solar system is not an ideal place to use such a drive because the local axion density is so small that a plausible engine would only have a thrust measured in micro-pounds. An axion drive would work best near the galactic center where the axion density should be high and would work worst in the voids between galaxies. We seem to need an "axion concentrator" to make the idea work (space-drive inventors please note). At high velocities one might think that the axion drive efficiency might be much better because the rate of axion intake is increased and because is larger. However, the push per axion goes down because the crucial momentum kick is obtained from speeding up the axion mass-energy packets to light speed, and as their incoming velocities begin to approaches c the kick gets smaller, reducing the effectiveness of the drive at high velocities.

[ClaysGhost]

Even if this could provide a extra kilowatt or two it would be helpful.

How's that? A fighter that needs at least terawatts of power is not going to be made more effective by attaching solar panels.

Image the advantage of also be able to draw power from an exterior source
, you could shut down main reactor and drift, making it harder to detect a potential ambush.

You'd still produce heat, and without turning on the famous SW "everything but the eyes" jamming, you'd be a target.

It would be the different between defeat and victory, having to return to the mother ship for additional fuel. Worse come to worse, head into the solar wind, until your tanks are filled and get back into the fight..

After about 30 years, maybe.

[Howedar]

At any rate, the extra KW or so would NOT help, as the extra weight would more than offset the extra power.

[omegaLancer]

Well maybe single kilowatt or two may not matter, but The article was written about cosmic Axion did not take in account that Axion emitted via solar bodies would have a higher relativitic Velocity, this would mean that Extreme hi yields in the megawatts would be produced..

And this constant power that alway can be depended upon.. In the Original Account of SW civilizaton, the richer worlds were the core worlds ( where the Axion density would be the highest, giving additional yields) and it may be that orginal manufacture or the Tie fighter came from one of the Core systems..

And with Axion the Faster the fighter goes the more power that is develop, an interesting advantage for a star fighter...

[Howedar]

Well maybe single kilowatt or two may not matter, but The article was written about cosmic Axion did not take in account that Axion emitted via solar bodies would have a higher relativitic Velocity, this would mean that Extreme hi yields in the megawatts would be produced..

Erm,
All you're going to get is a glorified lightsail.

And this constant power that alway can be depended upon.. In the Original Account of SW civilizaton, the richer worlds were the core worlds ( where the Axion density would be the highest, giving additional yields) and it may be that orginal manufacture or the Tie fighter came from one of the Core systems..

You think the entire Empire is running on some kind of funky solar power? :wtf:

And with Axion the Faster the fighter goes the more power that is develop, an interesting advantage for a star fighter...

Erm, all you get is more drag

[omegaLancer]

Drag... In this case, Axion produce photon with momentum that provise thrust.. Read the article that I have posted...

Light sail, magnetic sail, antimatter sail are all methods of space travel that have yet to be used by our lowily planet..

A funky solar power.. why not if it work.. Ever heard of a Dirac Sphere where a hi level galactic civilation builds a sphere around a star for power.. It what a type 2 civilation would use, while a type 0 like ours use fossil fuels. It free, non pollutioning, available every where. You donot have to carry large mass of fuel that work against you when trying to propel a space craft, and it safe....Better than anti matter that goes BOOOM...

[omegaLancer]

as for the drags from conversion of axions: forn Alternate view by john G cramer

"The conversion of axions to photons has another interesting property: it makes momentum (or recoil thrust). Every axion which is converted to a photon with the same total energy and going in the same direction produces a momentum kick of p = mc × (1-) where m is the axion rest mass. This would seem to make possible a fuelless "axion ramjet" which takes axions in the front and shoots photons out the back, pushing us through the universe in the process"

pretty cool for a glorified light sails...

Hell most of SW drive are glorified ION DRIVES. So what is the problem.

I like to make a correct it Dyson sphere not Dirac... got my physicist mix up..

[ClaysGhost]

Well maybe single kilowatt or two may not matter, but The article was written about cosmic Axion did not take in account that Axion emitted via solar bodies would have a higher relativitic Velocity, this would mean that Extreme hi yields in the megawatts would be produced..

It would have a higher velocity than what? Why don't they decay in the solar magnetic field? Why don't they decay in Earth's magnetic field? Even megawatts would require you to cruise the TIE for days.

What kind of fool is going to use a system like this?

Hell most of SW drive are glorified ION DRIVES. So what is the problem.

Oh, those fools. There is a problem even there, in that the experimental evidence for ions is rather better than that for axions. Like, axions haven't been detected - somewhat surprising for a particle that is supposed to decay in magnetic fields to produce energetic photons (i.e. all the time in space).

[omegaLancer]

First Axion is just a theory and we are talking Sci fi.. IT make more sense than collecting proton or normal solar power... the Axion theory at least you get a fairly large power output for free..

From the ICS it seem that for a fairly small reactor, the Tie get a decent power out put, enought to make it faster than a X wing. The later tie's reactor while bigger, is still general smaller than most rebel ship, but have superior power output..

And we are talking Star fighter, not Capital ships, where space and weight is at a premium and more megawatts and a system that adds power as you go faster, than consume fuel is pure sweetness.. More miles for the gallons
The fact is that the High laser output may be due to the property of the Laser/blaster gas not purily base on output of the engine.

As for Axion, They may not decay in the matter that Physicist are looking for, present experiment require a tunable cavity and the exact freqency of the emitted photon would be a function of mass of the Axion and both are unknowns..

As it stand inorder to maintain CP symmetry in Strong force interaction, some kind of Axion like particle needs to be produce.. The origional theory made it a more massive particle, which would have been easier to detect, maybe the particle is even less massive.. Then it would truely be difficult to detect in the with present technology.

We know tha Neutrino should also been emitted from the sun but when we look for them we found very little, it later became known that the neutrino has mass and it oscillate between the varies types, making detection difficult. A similiar scheme may be the case for the Axion ( which already oscillate from a photon) maybe there is another unkown particle to be added to the oscillation serie, one that more stable than the Axion...

[ClaysGhost]

First Axion is just a theory and we are talking Sci fi.. IT make more sense than collecting proton or normal solar power... the Axion theory at least you get a fairly large power output for free..

It makes even more sense that they're not power collectors at all. The "fairly large power output" is still far short of even 1/1000 of the power requirements of a TIE.

From the ICS it seem that for a fairly small reactor, the Tie get a decent power out put, enought to make it faster than a X wing. The later tie's reactor while bigger, is still general smaller than most rebel ship, but have superior power output..

Faster than an X-wing? You mean it can accelerate faster?

And we are talking Star fighter, not Capital ships, where space and weight is at a premium and more megawatts and a system that adds power as you go faster, than consume fuel is pure sweetness.. More miles for the gallons
The fact is that the High laser output may be due to the property of the Laser/blaster gas not purily base on output of the engine.

A) Fighters in SW already require large mass ratios to attain speeds of large percentages of c we hear about. They can obviously deal with the very high density of fuel they require.

B) To attain the stated accelerations, TIEs must generate terawatts per kg of ship's mass.

C) This is rather larger than the megawatt-level output of your axion power source. And wouldn't the TIE have to fly sideways to generate power? And don't the TIE engines point the wrong way for that? And wouldn't that mean that only one panel of the TIE could collect axion power at a time?

As for Axion, They may not decay in the matter that Physicist are looking for, present experiment require a tunable cavity and the exact freqency of the emitted photon would be a function of mass of the Axion and both are unknowns..

You propose a particle with this many unknown characteristics as a power source? Do you write Voyager scripts?

[Master of Ossus]

This debate looks pretty well over. The radiator panels clearly are not designed to power the TIE fighter, even as a secondary role.

[hvb]

I wouldn't entirely discount the Axion theory, the analogy with solar neutrion emission studies is noteworthy. Solar modelers spent years trying to shohorn their theories to fit the dataset until this behavior of the neutrion was accepted. (As a side result we have a very good read on the sun now, our most unreliable number on it is likely the mass )

However, as we don't seem to have a good basis for a theoregical assessment of how much power they (Axions) could provide, the point is rather moot. Even if we assume they exist, we don't know if their power contribution is sufficient to warrent the added woundnerability & mass of the TIE. Without being in shouting distance of data, it is just a discussion on likes and dislikes of a theory.

[The Dark]

I always thought the two big thingies were the "twin ion engines"

No, the two dots on the back of the sphere are the engines. Personally, I think they're heat sinks to bleed off the heat produced by the fighter. A large surface area and thin cross-section is a good design for losing heat. Also, the more power output the vessel has, the larger the wings appear to become (TIE Fighter and TIE Bomber are roughly the same, a squint appears to have larger panels, a bright larger still, and a Defender has the triple panels). This would suppot either theory, but as said earlier, solar panels that small wouldn't do squat to help a fighter.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

I remember when Sith God trolled here, and "TIE panels are oslar panels, the EU says so" was one of his threads.

The TIE Interceptor has a smaller panel surface area, yet appears to need more power. And, is the bent design supposed to help?

[The Dark]

Is it truly smaller? I don't have any good references (only have VHS versions and a single half-broken TIE Interceptor model). The bent design could help in cooling by ensuring that less of the surface area is exposed to heat at any on time (if it's relatively close to a solar body). The cut-out is to improve lateral vision, but if it's smaller than my theory might have to go down in flames like any Trekkie ship unfortunate enough to meet an Executor-class.

[omegaLancer]

Well Ghost this is my reply to your critism about the my theory of Solar panel:

Imaginary, no Ghost theoretical, big different.. If modern Quantum physics is correct, an Axion type particle must exist. Detecting them is difficult cause present method require knowing the mass of Axion, or by a slow and difficult process hand tuning a Microwave cavity, search the frequency range step by step. Present experiment have eliminated just a very small potion of the spectrum, future experiments should have a better chance of finding it. Check out http://dpf2002.velopers.net/talks_pdf/493talk.pdf about the issues addressing
search.

As for Oscillation of Axions, the following paper show that Axion oscillate to photons dependent on their potential mass so my oscillation theory is not my but has been address by other. http://pdg.lbl.gov/2000/axion3_s029.pdf

Well there is a good reason why the solar panels are mounted perpendicular to the direction of motion, one of the principle methods of converting Axion to photons would be via the interaction of Axion thru intense magnetic fields (primakoff conversion) this would converse a virtual photon (of the magnetic field) to a real photon. So if the magnetic field is projected at a right angle from the collection panel the Axions coming from the direction of motion of the Tie fighter would shower the panels as the fighter move thru the Axion fields, and both panels can be used
This has a major advantage over the panels themselves being the collection method. At most a tie fighter would have a collection area of 100 M2. At most, at less than Relativitic Speed the most power generated by collection Axion using Dr Graham formula 3 watts/cm2 times × Bx G2 would at most give you 120 kilowatts with such a small collection area. If the Magnetic fields collected the Axion we can extend the surface area into the range of Kilometer increase the power collect into the TW range. No matter direction the Tie fighter moved there would be Axions to convert. If travel in the direction of the Sun, the Flux would go up, due to Axion emitted from Sun. If the Fighter near Relativistic Velocity the Energy collection go up also.

So Solar Panel can be a hi energy power source depending on how the panel themselve work...

[Master of Ossus]

I remember when Sith God trolled here, and "TIE panels are oslar panels, the EU says so" was one of his threads.

The TIE Interceptor has a smaller panel surface area, yet appears to need more power. And, is the bent design supposed to help?

The bent design DOES provide a smaller targetting profile for deflection shots than on a traditional TIE fighter. It also appears to grant the pilot increased visibility, but the increase is marginal.

[The Dark]

The bent design DOES provide a smaller targetting profile for deflection shots than on a traditional TIE fighter. It also appears to grant the pilot increased visibility, but the increase is marginal.

This reminded me of the every TIE's tendency to explode (at least within the computer games) even when just the wings are hit. If the wings are power collectors, I suppose there would be a VERY slim chance of creating an overload with a hit from a fighter-mounted turbolaser. If they're heat sinks, however, the build-up of heat could potentially cause the engines to overheat and detonate, thus causing the exploding TIE phenomena. If this was known to Imperial researchers, that would explain the bent-wing TIE Interceptor, TIE Advanced, TIE Bomber, and TIE Defender, and as mentioned, the cut out portion increases the pilot's ability to see to the sides (much like removing blinkers from a horse).