Swiftboat Veterans Ad

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2004-08-05 08:40pm

Hamel wrote:
MrAnderson wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Would it be off topic to mention the irony of Bush-supporters thinking your military service and what people say about it has a bearing on your ability to be President?

Almost as ironic as Clinton supporting Democrats thinking that military service has bearing on being President.
Did Clinton lie about his (lack of) military record?

Nope. I very specifically said Clinton supporting Democrats.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-05 08:42pm

MrAnderson wrote:Nope. I very specifically said Clinton supporting Democrats.

In case you were too slow to get it the first time around, since Clinton did not make military service an issue either for himself or against his opponents, you are so full of it your ears are leaking brown stuff.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-05 09:02pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kerry's the one making military service an issue here. Not sure, but I think MrAnderson's point is that most supporters of Kerry (who is running in large part on his service record) also supported Clinton (who dodged the draft). This is ironic from a certain point of view, I suppose.

Post by **Cairber** » 2004-08-05 09:04pm

Wow just checked out that ad...looks to me like that could really hurt bush, actually...I dont think the american people are gonna react well to this one. I dunno, im pro bush and it just doesnt sit well with me...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-08-05 09:05pm

Clinton avoided the draft through legal means and never pretended otherwise. Bush, on the other hand, claimed to serve in the military but was actually busy getting drunk and stoned. It is not so much the details of Kerry's record as the contrast between him and Bush which is noteworthy; at the DNC, they made the only point that needed to be made: Kerry showed up.

Post by **Cairber** » 2004-08-05 09:08pm

this is the wrongest (haha is that even a word?) road for the bush campaign to take as far as ads go (even tho it seems he didnt have anything to do with this one in particular). Kerry was there and has the medals to prove it (or had them at one time...did he throw them out?) attack him where hes weak...def not in this category

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-08-05 11:05pm

"My fellow Americans,

"The time has come for me to tell the truth about where I was in '72. Like many of you, I spent most of the early seventies coked out of my ever-loving mind. In '72, when the Air Force instituted systematic drug testing, I was scared shitless. Well, when I got the letter I was higher than a fucking kite, but when I came down off my high, then I was scared shitless.

"So you see, I was AWOL from the Air National Guard for a year because I was so fucked up I couldn't see straight, let alone fly a high-performance fighter jet.

"God bless America."

Natorgator · Post by **Natorgator** » 2004-08-06 02:36am

This says it all:

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-08-06 07:30am

As their first piece of evidence of the ad's supposed lies, the DNC/Kerry lawyers claim that the veterans in the ad "purport to have served on Senator Kerry's SWIFT Boat in Vietnam" but, "in fact, not a single one of the men who pretend to have served with Senator Kerry was actually a crewmate of Senator Kerry's." The problem is that none of these men claimed to have served on Kerry's SWIFT Boat. They simply said they "served with John Kerry" -- and they did.

Augustus · Post by **Augustus** » 2004-08-06 08:52am

Darth Wong wrote:...Bush, on the other hand, claimed to serve in the military but was actually busy getting drunk and stoned...

Proof?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-08-06 12:04pm

Augustus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:...Bush, on the other hand, claimed to serve in the military but was actually busy getting drunk and stoned...
Proof?

How Bush Failed to Fulfill His Duty

Enjoy.

Augustus · Post by **Augustus** » 2004-08-06 12:44pm

The Kernel wrote:
Augustus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:...Bush, on the other hand, claimed to serve in the military but was actually busy getting drunk and stoned...
Proof?
How Bush Failed to Fulfill His Duty

Enjoy.

Thank you. But that still doesnt support Mike's allegation.

As to your link: The USAF:APRC isn’t relevant to the USAFNG. The Reserves are a separate entity from the National Guard. In order to prove Bush did'nt perform his duty it has to be shown that he did not attend all his required UTAs or make them up with ATAs. Noone to date has been able to show, as far as I am aware, that he either did not attend all his UTAs or make them up with Command Line approval.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-08-06 02:02pm

Augustus wrote: Thank you. But that still doesnt support Mike's allegation.

Bush has publically admitted that he had a substance problem during that time period.

As to your link: The USAF:APRC isn’t relevant to the USAFNG. The Reserves are a separate entity from the National Guard. In order to prove Bush did'nt perform his duty it has to be shown that he did not attend all his required UTAs or make them up with ATAs. Noone to date has been able to show, as far as I am aware, that he either did not attend all his UTAs or make them up with Command Line approval.

I'm not going to argue the details of internal military paperwork, I'll leave that to those more familiar with the situation. Suffice to say that this has managed to convince enough people to make a case out of it.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-08-06 02:05pm

Augustus wrote:Noone to date has been able to show, as far as I am aware, that he either did not attend all his UTAs or make them up with Command Line approval.

That wouldnt be the definite proof of a negative you'd be asking for there would it?
The fact is, he should have to prove he was there not just go, "You cant prove I wasnt, nah!"...oh wait, he's a shit for brains christian fundie and a schmuck on top of that...nevermind.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-08-06 10:02pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Augustus wrote:Noone to date has been able to show, as far as I am aware, that he either did not attend all his UTAs or make them up with Command Line approval.
That wouldnt be the definite proof of a negative you'd be asking for there would it?
The fact is, he should have to prove he was there not just go, "You cant prove I wasnt, nah!"...oh wait, he's a shit for brains christian fundie and a schmuck on top of that...nevermind.

Not one of his fellow pilots has come forward and said "Yes, I remeber serving with Bush." Quite the opposite, two former 'Bama Guardsmen say Bush never showed. They know, they were there and would have remembered out of a group of twenty or so, if one of their men had gone on to be President. Bush is a deserter from REMF duty. He claims he served. Let him prove it. Of course, we all know he can't because he was AWOL.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-08-06 10:57pm

I just would like to step in here and clarify how the Guard works. It is entirely conceivable to join the ANG and go through all the training just to have your unit say 'we'll call if we need you', and not call for months. In today's day and age, with our many committments overseas, this happens less often, but back during Vietnam, when the Guard got all the hand me downs from the Active forces, it happened all the time. Not showing up if you're not needed is not a form of desertion if that's the case. Of course whether or not Bush was AWOL or not is really irrelevant considering that almost no one in the National Guard went to Vietnam.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-08-06 11:28pm

this has a lot of undertones reminding me of the infamous Daisy Girl ad of 1964 that Johnson unleashed onto Goldwater. It only ran in a few markets
and was quickly withdrawn, but the damage was done.

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Swiftboat Veterans Ad

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