Scimitar with competent captain & crew
Moderator: Vympel
Scimitar with competent captain & crew
Maybe this has been done before (sorry if it has), but let's say for the sake of argument that you have a smart captain & crew commanding the Scimitar from Nemesis.
I'm sure those of you who have actually seen the film can attest to the appalling battle tactics used by Shinzon during that fight with the E-E.
I know this goes against all that we've seen in the Federation and Romulans in the series & films, but let's say for a minute that they know what they're doing and maximize what they have in battle.
How would they fair against Imperial or New Republic forces?
Granted, they would still most likely lose, but how much better would they do?
Or would a smart commander simply order his ship to cloak and flee as soon as possible?
I'm sure those of you who have actually seen the film can attest to the appalling battle tactics used by Shinzon during that fight with the E-E.
I know this goes against all that we've seen in the Federation and Romulans in the series & films, but let's say for a minute that they know what they're doing and maximize what they have in battle.
How would they fair against Imperial or New Republic forces?
Granted, they would still most likely lose, but how much better would they do?
Or would a smart commander simply order his ship to cloak and flee as soon as possible?
The difference would not be noticable.
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I doubt it. GAT has god-like abilities, but he needs something to work with. Also, he tends to do much better with groups of ships than with a single ship at his command.Praxis wrote:We could put Grand Admiral Thrawn in a slow, battered, barely maneuverable garbage scow that barely can knick an asteroid with its weapon (notice not plural). Do you think Thrawn could defeat a warship in that (without ramming it into anything)?
Back to the OP, the Scimitar still can't withstand a single hit with a capital ship grade turbolaser. Unless that problem is somehow solved, the ship is simply not going to be able to function in combat against NR/Imperial forces.
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Against the enterprise, definite victory.
Shinzon pulled a couple good stunts (the one against one of the Valdores, remember?), and we could assume a good commander would do the same things, but not do the idiotic parts. So a good commander would get to the same point as before- 70% shields remaining, both Valdores gone, Enterprise crippled. Only difference- the smart commander wouldn't gloat and watch while the enterprise rammed them- he'd immediately nuke it.
Or if he needed Picard, fly behind it, take out all engines and thrusters and waepons and shield generators, and THEN gloat.
Shinzon pulled a couple good stunts (the one against one of the Valdores, remember?), and we could assume a good commander would do the same things, but not do the idiotic parts. So a good commander would get to the same point as before- 70% shields remaining, both Valdores gone, Enterprise crippled. Only difference- the smart commander wouldn't gloat and watch while the enterprise rammed them- he'd immediately nuke it.
Or if he needed Picard, fly behind it, take out all engines and thrusters and waepons and shield generators, and THEN gloat.
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My synopsis of the Nemesis battle, from another thread:
Scimitar's work:
1.) warp drive out (Enterprise)
2.) warp core forcefield out (Enterprise)
3.) warp core damaged (Enterprise)
4.) two shield penetrations (Enterprise)
5.) near loss of dorsal shields (Enterprise)
6.) console sparking (Enterprise)
7.) aft shields down to 40% (Enterprise)
8.) one Warbird (faster than the E-E and nearly 1 1/2 times its size) losing a wing and being crippled
9.) forward shields down to 10% due to collision (indirect - the Scimitar was tossing other ships at them - Enterprise)
At this point I have to take a moment to praise how good this movie looked. Yes, it sucked overall thanks to the writing, but even Darth Wong admitted the movie looked cool. Say what you will, being stoned makes movies seem less real. And this movie still feels real when I watch it. I can't say that of "The Phantom Menace" or "Attack of the Clones."
Watching the battle now it's almost as if the Enterprise and Romulans are being tossed about (and even into each other) by a storm of the Scimitar's making. Hmmm...definitely a good thing to have a ship that tosses the rest about like toys when it sneezes. Let's continue:
10.) second Warbird crippled with multiple hull breaches
11.) three more shield breaches on the Enterprise's saucer
12.) loss of structural integrity on decks 12-17, sections 4-10; sections are abandoned by having their SIF power diverted to shields (Enterprise)
13.) loss of ventral shielding to deck 29 (Enterprise)
14.) boarding party of perhaps half a dozen to a dozen aboard (Enterprise)
15.) hull breach on bridge (Enterprise)
Two Warbirds are wrecked along with the Enterprise, and:
Enterprise's marks on the Scimitar (one Scimitar, not two expensive Warbirds and the pride of Starfleet), with the help of the Romulans:
1.) console sparking
2.) cloak down (due only to Troi)
3.) no apparent hull breaches by weapons
4.) 30% loss of shielding (apparently forward, which makes sense - many of the Enterprise's hits were while the Scimitar was advancing on them - in other words whenever the Scimitar allowed it, because the Scimitar set up and controlled the whole battle)
5.) ramming: destruction of Scimitar shuttle bay
6.) ramming: loss of all Scimitar disruptors
7.) two armed boarders
This damage is done at the cost of:
1.) all of Enterprise's photon torpedoes and 96% of its phasers
2.) ramming - loss of the forward sections of the saucer
3.) ramming - collapse of internal structural members
4.) ramming - loss of ability to transport more than one person
The Scimitar is still warp-capable and still in possession of a weapon that can kill everyone on Earth, and Enterprise is doing its damnedest simply to back away from them at a few meters a second.
The Scimitar was simply superior to every other ship there, put together. Maybe it's got something to do with the fact that it was not only a dedicated warship, but a purpose built weapon of mass destruction that massed roughly as much as its adversaries combined did.
You may as well argue that the Enterprise leaving scorch marks on the hull of a Star Destroyer when it explodes constitutes the Enterprise kicking the Star Destroyer's ass.
Scimitar's work:
1.) warp drive out (Enterprise)
2.) warp core forcefield out (Enterprise)
3.) warp core damaged (Enterprise)
4.) two shield penetrations (Enterprise)
5.) near loss of dorsal shields (Enterprise)
6.) console sparking (Enterprise)
7.) aft shields down to 40% (Enterprise)
8.) one Warbird (faster than the E-E and nearly 1 1/2 times its size) losing a wing and being crippled
9.) forward shields down to 10% due to collision (indirect - the Scimitar was tossing other ships at them - Enterprise)
At this point I have to take a moment to praise how good this movie looked. Yes, it sucked overall thanks to the writing, but even Darth Wong admitted the movie looked cool. Say what you will, being stoned makes movies seem less real. And this movie still feels real when I watch it. I can't say that of "The Phantom Menace" or "Attack of the Clones."
Watching the battle now it's almost as if the Enterprise and Romulans are being tossed about (and even into each other) by a storm of the Scimitar's making. Hmmm...definitely a good thing to have a ship that tosses the rest about like toys when it sneezes. Let's continue:
10.) second Warbird crippled with multiple hull breaches
11.) three more shield breaches on the Enterprise's saucer
12.) loss of structural integrity on decks 12-17, sections 4-10; sections are abandoned by having their SIF power diverted to shields (Enterprise)
13.) loss of ventral shielding to deck 29 (Enterprise)
14.) boarding party of perhaps half a dozen to a dozen aboard (Enterprise)
15.) hull breach on bridge (Enterprise)
Two Warbirds are wrecked along with the Enterprise, and:
Enterprise's marks on the Scimitar (one Scimitar, not two expensive Warbirds and the pride of Starfleet), with the help of the Romulans:
1.) console sparking
2.) cloak down (due only to Troi)
3.) no apparent hull breaches by weapons
4.) 30% loss of shielding (apparently forward, which makes sense - many of the Enterprise's hits were while the Scimitar was advancing on them - in other words whenever the Scimitar allowed it, because the Scimitar set up and controlled the whole battle)
5.) ramming: destruction of Scimitar shuttle bay
6.) ramming: loss of all Scimitar disruptors
7.) two armed boarders
This damage is done at the cost of:
1.) all of Enterprise's photon torpedoes and 96% of its phasers
2.) ramming - loss of the forward sections of the saucer
3.) ramming - collapse of internal structural members
4.) ramming - loss of ability to transport more than one person
The Scimitar is still warp-capable and still in possession of a weapon that can kill everyone on Earth, and Enterprise is doing its damnedest simply to back away from them at a few meters a second.
The Scimitar was simply superior to every other ship there, put together. Maybe it's got something to do with the fact that it was not only a dedicated warship, but a purpose built weapon of mass destruction that massed roughly as much as its adversaries combined did.
You may as well argue that the Enterprise leaving scorch marks on the hull of a Star Destroyer when it explodes constitutes the Enterprise kicking the Star Destroyer's ass.
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Wow, Metrion Cascade. That list kicked ass.
I think the Feds should outsource their warship design to Remus from now on.
I think the Feds should outsource their warship design to Remus from now on.
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Nit-pick: The Scimitar was the one backing away not the E-E, remember when Shinzon says "Full reverse" and the giant rockets pop out of the side of the Scimitar?Metrion Cascade wrote: The Scimitar is still warp-capable and still in possession of a weapon that can kill everyone on Earth, and Enterprise is doing its damnedest simply to back away from them at a few meters a second.
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They must have been damaged because that was the one time the scimitar didn't swoop and soar like a bird of prey. It moved more like a luxury liner being pushed by a tugboat.
"Gunslinger indeed. Quick draw, Bob. Quick draw." --Count Chocula
"Unquestionably, Dr. Who is MUCH lighter in tone than WH40K. But then, I could argue the entirety of WWII was much lighter in tone than WH40K." --Broomstick
"This is ridiculous. I look like the Games Workshop version of a Jedi Knight." --Harry Dresden, Changes
"Like...are we canonical?" --Aaron Dembski-Bowden to Dan Abnett
"Unquestionably, Dr. Who is MUCH lighter in tone than WH40K. But then, I could argue the entirety of WWII was much lighter in tone than WH40K." --Broomstick
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Without Shinzon there would be no need to capture the Enterprise. In competent hands the Scimitar would be a formidable warship. The entire torpedo payload of the Enterprise only reduced it's shields to 70 %.Ace Pace wrote:Okey, assume competent scimter, then against the Enterprise as seen in the movie.
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There's also the annoying fact that Shinzon could have easily procured a DNA sample from Picard using covert methods. Scenario: Shinzon uses his pull with the Romulans (prior to killing off a truckload of Romulan senators) to procure credentials that will allow him to attend an archeological conference with Picard, or just sends an agent under appropriate cover. Then it's just a matter of using some topical anesthetic and a device to draw blood covertly, or take the even more covert route to use a medical transporter (like Bashir used in some neurosurgery) of miniaturized type to just transport some samples out of Picard.evilcat4000 wrote:Without Shinzon there would be no need to capture the Enterprise. In competent hands the Scimitar would be a formidable warship. The entire torpedo payload of the Enterprise only reduced it's shields to 70 %.Ace Pace wrote:Okey, assume competent scimter, then against the Enterprise as seen in the movie.
Worst case: just ask. It's not like Picard, with his Federation sensibilities, could reasonably refuse such a request. To acquire plausible deniability for the Romulans, he could have even posed as another victim of the vengeful Ferengi who tried to trick Picard into believing a genetically modified teenager was his illegitimate son.
The whole Nemesis scenario was poorly thought out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dimly recall Picard being in Shinzon's possession several times, yet the latter never got what he needed from the former. I mean... I just can't... wha-... it's so stupid!Patrick Ogaard wrote:The whole Nemesis scenario was poorly thought out.
*rocks back and forth*
I hate it when these movies induce catatonia...
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Thinking too hard about it could cause an aneurysm, or cooties. Just don't go there, it's not worth it.Stofsk wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dimly recall Picard being in Shinzon's possession several times, yet the latter never got what he needed from the former. I mean... I just can't... wha-... it's so stupid!Patrick Ogaard wrote:The whole Nemesis scenario was poorly thought out.
*rocks back and forth*
I hate it when these movies induce catatonia...
Maybe the entire thing was just Shinzon's subconscious attempt at a vastly extended suicide, taking as many people with him as possible, especially people who might care about him. Okay, I've got nothing.
If I knew how to FUQ, that would totally be FUQed. Or something.Patrick Ogaard wrote:Thinking too hard about it could cause an aneurysm, or cooties. Just don't go there, it's not worth it.Stofsk wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dimly recall Picard being in Shinzon's possession several times, yet the latter never got what he needed from the former. I mean... I just can't... wha-... it's so stupid!Patrick Ogaard wrote:The whole Nemesis scenario was poorly thought out.
*rocks back and forth*
I hate it when these movies induce catatonia...
Maybe the entire thing was just Shinzon's subconscious attempt at a vastly extended suicide, taking as many people with him as possible, especially people who might care about him. Okay, I've got nothing.
I've always thought this would make perfect sense. Why didn't he just ASK (or capture Picard when he came for dinner)?Patrick Ogaard wrote:
Worst case: just ask. It's not like Picard, with his Federation sensibilities, could reasonably refuse such a request. To acquire plausible deniability for the Romulans, he could have even posed as another victim of the vengeful Ferengi who tried to trick Picard into believing a genetically modified teenager was his illegitimate son.
The whole Nemesis scenario was poorly thought out.
I'm sure Picard would have donated a blood sample to save a man's life, and Shinzon could have grown more blood cells from the blood sample. one way is by modifying the transporter (we know that a broken transporter will make copies of things instead of copying and erasing the original), or using the replicator, or just standard medical procedures.
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The Scimitar's rockets cut off after a point. The E-E started backing away after them when Picard realized they were going to fire the thalaron weapon.Crazedwraith wrote:Nit-pick: The Scimitar was the one backing away not the E-E, remember when Shinzon says "Full reverse" and the giant rockets pop out of the side of the Scimitar?Metrion Cascade wrote: The Scimitar is still warp-capable and still in possession of a weapon that can kill everyone on Earth, and Enterprise is doing its damnedest simply to back away from them at a few meters a second.
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And admiral is not a captain.Praxis wrote:We could put Grand Admiral Thrawn in a slow, battered, barely maneuverable garbage scow that barely can knick an asteroid with its weapon (notice not plural). Do you think Thrawn could defeat a warship in that (without ramming it into anything)?
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Maybe he meant competent Captain, with the time limit. (And for some reason, he doesn't get to talk to Picard beforehand).
Somehow, the Enterprise gets wind of the plan to kidnap Picard, and leaves. The Scimitar follows, and ambushes them in the Nebula as before.
However, the CC has trained his crew, so he can speak a maneuver, and the rest of the crew knows what to do, and there is a designated tactical officer, so when the CC gets the pain from the decay, the TO can take over, and continue the attack.
Result, the CC and staff manage to drop the shields over the bridge, beam Picard out, and get out of decent weapons range. The CC informs Riker that in exchange for Picard's life, the Federation will have peace with the Romulan Empire.
Ya-da-da, about peace and prosperity, all done because of Captain Picard (unwillingly) gave his life to help the Romulan Praetor.
Of course, there will be several Romulan forces who don't like Shinzon, but the Praetor is able to keep the Federation from assisting them, by citing the Prime Directive. He also asks the Federation to make sure the Klingons don't interfere as well, as this is an internal Romulan matter.
Result - Feds and Romulans become better aquainted, and the Klingons get really cranky to the Feds.
Somehow, the Enterprise gets wind of the plan to kidnap Picard, and leaves. The Scimitar follows, and ambushes them in the Nebula as before.
However, the CC has trained his crew, so he can speak a maneuver, and the rest of the crew knows what to do, and there is a designated tactical officer, so when the CC gets the pain from the decay, the TO can take over, and continue the attack.
Result, the CC and staff manage to drop the shields over the bridge, beam Picard out, and get out of decent weapons range. The CC informs Riker that in exchange for Picard's life, the Federation will have peace with the Romulan Empire.
Ya-da-da, about peace and prosperity, all done because of Captain Picard (unwillingly) gave his life to help the Romulan Praetor.
Of course, there will be several Romulan forces who don't like Shinzon, but the Praetor is able to keep the Federation from assisting them, by citing the Prime Directive. He also asks the Federation to make sure the Klingons don't interfere as well, as this is an internal Romulan matter.
Result - Feds and Romulans become better aquainted, and the Klingons get really cranky to the Feds.
However, the resources it must have taken to create a ship that huge were not worth the cost. How many warbirds could have bee build instead?
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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