Comparing the OT with Episodes I & II

[Bob the Gunslinger]

TPM is utter crap, it deserves all the hate it gets. To be honest I think all the hate that accumulated because of TPM spilled over a bit onto AoTC and affected a lot of people's judgments about it.

There are a lot of people who think TPM was actually better than AOTC, and no, you can't dismiss them just by saying they're all on crack, because they're not.

My wife likes TPM better than AOTC, although "likes" might be too strong a word. I think the reason is that TPM had some nice moments between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan whereas AOTC had not one character moment that isn't cringe-inducing (at least for her).

Personally, I think the battle in AOTC has more rewatchability than all of TPM, but the rest of AOTC is fodder to be fast-forwarded through. (Maybe I'll watch the scenes with the emperor, too.)

[Bob the Gunslinger]

as devastatingly sad as A.I

Are you talking about the movie with Haley Joel Osmet? Cause I laughed my ass off at that one. It was worse than TPM, AOTC and Nemesis combined ...although it made great MST3k material.

[18-Till-I-Die]

as devastatingly sad as A.I

Are you talking about the movie with Haley Joel Osmet? Cause I laughed my ass off at that one. It was worse than TPM, AOTC and Nemesis combined ...although it made great MST3k material.

Wah...who...how...

Dude what are you, a Terminator? There were scenes in that movie that couldve made a grown man cry...and did.

[Lord Pounder]

It's hard to compare the 2 OT and the PT. It's a bit like comparing a Rembrant painting to a scrawl he made as a child, only in reverse. Lucas's problem is his complete arrogance. Yeah he made 3 of the greatest movies i'd ever seen in my life, then he believed his own hype and was further confounded by crowing yes men. I remember my reaction to TPM i turned to my mates and said "Is that it?" it was an OK story in it's own right but this was Star Wars, i guess i just expected more.

The story is essentially there. The galaxy is on the brink of war, the Republic is crippled by buracracy(sp), we know an oportunistic Senator called Palpatine will take it over with the help of a fallen Jedi. Then Lucas ruined it by adding a child, insulting comedy relief, (Take a look at Gimli in LotR George, THATS HOW YOU DO COMEDY RELIEF) and then he goes anc kills the potentially best character in the PT, Maul.

AotC was a bit better, some parts where still badly executed. The starcrossed lovers for a start, the continued existance of Jar Jar. But it wasn't half the dissapointment TMP was.

[Mange]

I will comment on a few of the points from your list. I must start with saying that I deeply apologize for my grammar. I'm tired, and it seems as if I must do some catching up on my English.

1. Characters

ESB has a great deal of character growth. We go from Luke - who we should already like anyway because he's the hero of the story

While I agree that ESB developes the characters further, Luke's character is in transition and we don't really see that much character growth.

He's reckless, impatient, and so on. Through the entire Jedi training scenes he's taught by Yoda the virtues of patience, control, temperament, balance. And he changes as a result. But when he sees into the future and sees his friends in agony he reverts back to recklessness again.

Yet an other indication that Luke hasn't matured yet. He's in the initiation stage. His character has started to grow.

Ditto for Leia and Han. They start off in opposition towards each other, then the 'ice thaws' so to speak, and they begin to relax around each other. Leia, who starts off as a 'walking refrigerator unit' to coin a ST term warms up, and by the end she finds that she loves this scoundrel who's come into her life so abruptly. After he's taken from her,
she becomes a fighter. She picks up a rifle and exacts revenge against those who took her love away from her. Han, ironically the 'warrior' of the three, does nothing but retreat in this film. Almost as though he's running from something besides TIEs and ISDs.
And at the end we know what he's running from: like in ANH, he's running from his own good nature. He loves Leia but instead of telling her he allows her to tell him, and responds with the immortal line "I know."

Vympel has already pointed out the most important fact, Leia is already a fighter. I totally agree with you about that line: "I know". This shows why Harrison Ford is such a talented actor. After the Lord knows how many takes that didn't work, Ford improvised this.

Obi-wan doesn't change. He starts off the film as a Jedi Master. He ends the film as a Jedi Master. We see him engaged in detective work which is an interesting facet to his character, but too much of it shows how inept he or the Jedi Order is (the librarian bitch telling him "if it doesn't exist in the records, it doesn't exist" stunning logic there...
and the Yoda scene where he get's the kids to help Obi-wan find his missing planet... this is a character who we're SUPPOSED TO LIKE but he hasn't given us reason to).
Then we see him fight Jango Fett. He doesn't exactly lose (he DOES drive Fett off), but he doesn't exactly win either. Alright, we have some sort of development: Obi-wan lost a fight to someone who he should have had no difficulty with.

I agree that AOTC doesn't show changes in the Obi-Wan character, and I don't think it should. We learn enough about Obi-Wan's character in TPM and we already knows how it will end.
As GL has pointed out,Obi-Wan's role has been to work as a centering device. In TPM it was Qui-Gon Jinn (his learner) who didn't followed proper Jedi code, and in AOTC it's
Anakin (his Padawan). The scene with Jocasta Nu and the inability of both Obi-Wan and Yoda to understand that the Kamino entry was deleted from the Archives is supposed to show that the Jedi, just as Yoda pointed out earlier in the film, has become too sure of themselves. They believe
that they're infalliable. What better way to show that other than an old, wise-ass librarian? Clearly, Obi-Wan isn't convinced and that is of course the reason he turns to Yoda. However, Yoda isn't immune to the infalliable complex, and that is why the obvious simple answer comes from the very young Padawan who hasn't been fully introduced in the mature Jedi Order. Yoda is perhaps aware of the truth, but refuses to see this. Remember also that Obi-Wan and Yoda later insists that Vader must be destroyed. Even in death they don't realize that they're falliable.
Why Obi-Wan loses against Jango Fett is also part of this. Note that Obi-Wan doesn't really uses the Force in the fight against Jango. Perhaps the reason is that Obi-Wan feels that Jango isn't really a threat. Remember, Obi-Wan killed a Sith, then a lowly bounty hunter wouldn't be a match, would he? Vympel has also pointed one important fact out, Obi-Wan tries to capture him alive.

Anakin and Padme are no different. Anakin starts the film off as a whiny little brat, and his only development seems to be a whiny, PSYCHOTIC little brat. Padme starts the film off as a dispassionate, professional career politician, and at the end she's... uh, a
slightly passionate, professional career politician, who can still fire a blaster. (already established in TPM anyway) Where's the character development? Or to put it in a better way, where's the POSITIVE character development?

Yes, Anakin is a whiny brat, but look at the reason why. Anakin knows he's the Chosen One and he feels that he is being held back by Obi-Wan. Anakin wants to do things his own way. His frustration is clearly one of the most important aspects in his downfall.
Here an other character comes in, Palpatine but it's an other discussion. Anakin is on the road towards the Dark Side, thus no positive development is really necessary.
When it comes to the other things you mentioned, such as Anakin being the best pilot in the Galaxy, perhaps we'll see more of that in ROTS, but we've already witnessed that he's a great Pod Racer and that he was an extremely good pilot already at the age of nine (or ten, whatever).

Again, why did Obi-wan lose the duel at the end? Just so we could see digital Yoda jump and flip around like a monkey on steroids? Even HE failed to defeat Dooku! The AOTC end-duel is easily my least favourite duel in all of SW

.

Well, clearly Dooku was better with a light-sabre than Obi-Wan was. While I love the Yoda vs. Dooku duel, I agree that it should have been played out better. I think that Yoda at least should've wounded Dooku.

My rating (characters):

ESB: 5/5

AOTC: 5/5


2. Symbolism:

Not too many objections, but you're overlooking one very important symbolic item in AOTC, namely falling. Many people take long falls in the movie, which of course indicates things to come. This is also the case in the factory scene (Padmé falls on the assembly line). When I saw AOTC in theater, I didn't like the factory scenes a bit.
It reminded me of a videogame, and I thought the scene was far too long. When I bought the DVD, my first reaction was to skip past the factory scene, but I let it play. Imagine my surprise when I found out that I really liked the sequence. I still don't know why I like it. I guess it really has a true Star Wars feel.

My rating (symbolism):

ESB: 5/5

AOTC: 5/5

There are other things that make AOTC the greatest Star Wars movie (yet). IMHO Hayden Christensen is a better actor than Mark Hamill (takes shelter), the fights are better choreographed (takes shelter again) and the action is better (digs even deeper in my shelter). Sure, there are things in ESB that beats AOTC:

* The Hoth-battle
Although I really like the battle on Geonosis, the battle of Hoth comes out on top. It's longer and we feel that the characters might be in danger.

* The asteroid chase
This is the best f/x scene and the most exciting space battle in any fantasy or science fiction movie ever, period.

* "I know"
This has already been adressed.

* The escape from Cloud City
I really like the scene where R2 is working to open the door

* "No, I am your father."
No need for words.

So finally, what makes AOTC come out on top?

The answer is: I really don't know, I just like it better, but don't get me wrong, I absolutely love ESB and it has a special place. When I have bought the DVD's on September 20 (yes, the box set is released one day earlier here in Sweden and most of Europe than in North America), I will see it first. Perhaps it's more like a tie between ESB and AOTC? Here's how the movies rank IMO:
1. Attack of the Clones
2. The Empire Strikes Back
3. A New Hope
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Phantom Menace

Anyway, Stofsk (and all you others out there), I really recommend that you check out the site The Lard Biscuit about the characters, story and symbolism of AOTC (and TPM):

+http://www.lardbiscuit.com/lard/shroud.htm

Although I don't agree with everything (of course) it's a really great site written by one of the few (?) original fans who really loves the prequels.

Well, that's it. I hope I made some sense and I do hope that you give the prequels a chance. We aren't little kids anymore, that's the simple fact.

[Sarevok]

The original triology was a masterpiece. Unfortunately the new prequel triology does not come close. However as stand alone films the prequel trilogy is very good. They are better than most of the stuff hollywood produces these days.

My main problem with the prequel triology is Anakin. In the original triology Darth Vader redefined badass. But in prequell trilogy he is a wuss. In TPM we see a ten year old boy who likes to fix things. It simply does not fit with the badass image of Darth Vader seen in the original triology.

Except for that the prequel triology is quite good. Episode 2 showed significant improvement over TPM. The clonetroopers, battledroids and massive battles brought back the feel of Star Wars.

[VT-16]

I think that´s one of the main problems I have with people complaining, if the PT weren´t SW-films, they´d be less criticised than they are today. And I like all five films so I really don´t give a damn about PT/OT-differences, or acting disabilities. (I say disabilities instead of poor acting, because every actor in these movies has had good scenes and bad scenes. The fact that they are capable of good acting just makes their bad scenes look even worse and it annoys me to no end. )

Overall, I tend to focus more on the positive sides with these movies and then it keeps me interested in the story and the universe.

[Kurgan]

To me, the fact that the prequels are "Star Wars" is both their greatest strength and their greatest weakness.

In other words, it both helps and hurts them.

TPM was hurt for me, because my expectations were so high from 20 years of the OT in my head (and it's not like I forgot what those movies were like, I continued to watch them throughout my life, at 18 years old when the SE's began coming out).

On the other hand, I'm more easily able to excuse flaws and shortcomings in the films precisely because they are officially Star Wars and not just the writings of some liscensed hack, but straight from the creator of the saga himself, The Flanneled One.

I rank them like this:

Return of the Jedi: My favorite, possibly because it was the first of the films I saw in theaters (I saw ANH in the re-release shortly afterward, ESB I only saw on video until the SE came out).

Attack of the Clones. Yes, I rank this one second. Why? Another reason I loved ROTJ is that I've always been a fan of action movies. Not mindless ones, but ones that have some cool characters/story as well. And yes, both movies had those. Even if the acting suffers, at least there is something cool in there besides the action sequences (which are awesome in their own right).

Empire Strikes Back. Yes, the one that every fanboy says is the best film, I rank third. Why? Well, it's not that far behind AOTC, but I like it for all the reasons everyone else likes it, the direction, the acting (with its share of cheesy lines, laser brain, nerf herder, etc), humor, action, etc. Overall it's a well-rounded film. It can almost stand on its own, but not quite.

A New Hope. I rank this one so low, even though I know it made great contributions to cinema and the saga wouldn't exist without this one, but frankly compared to the others its somewhat boring. Has a few good moments, but a lot of buildup. The final sequence of the Death Star Run I didn't fully appreciate until many years later. It seems overly long, but the tension builds for a mature viewer, like watching "Alien." Watching it when I was 6 years old wasn't much fun. Watching it when I was 18 was a thrill. Not because of nostalgia, but because I had the attention span to stick with it and see how well crafted it was. So this is the "story" movie. Compare the acting of the main characters to the others and it just isn't as good. Vader's character is different, not necessarily better or worse, but just different. He could be any bad guy in a black mask in a cheesy sci fi/fantasy movie here. We know he's cool because of what came later, but here we don't have that background yet. Likewise until the SE's the sfx were just not as nice as the other two films (and especially Jedi).

The Phantom Menace. I hated it for the same reasons everyone else did, Jar Jar, and the "wooden acting." My expectations were high, and the movie just drags in parts. The Nemoidians were laughable as villians and their voices were goofy sounding, though "Excuuuuueeeeqea me!!!" Jar Jar was the worst. The reasons to like this film at all were the ones everyone cites as well, the politicial machinations of Palpatine (only discernable by a mature viewer anyway) and the saber fights. The rest was just ho-hum, even the podrace, though cool felt more like a cartoon than the tension filled death star run. Who cares if all these little aliens die, and you know that anakin is going to survive. Will he win though? Who knows. Still, that kills a lot of the tension.

It's not a terrible film, but it still is the least of the SW films in my opinion.

However I will say that in the style of direction, the cinematography, etc. it somehow feels more like a "star wars film" than AOTC does. AOTC uses more swooping angles, more modern conventions, to make it feel like it was made recently rather than in the late 70's, early 80's. So TPM has something of a retro look to me, if that makes sense, even with all the CGI.

[Slartibartfast]

Dooku retreated- that's a de facto win for Yoda.

I think I may have watched the wrong movie... weren't the three Jedi trying to prevent Dooku from escaping?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Wah...who...how...

Dude what are you, a Terminator? There were scenes in that movie that couldve made a grown man cry...and did.

Well, my wife and I were both math majors who had read an Asimov book or two, so when we saw this movie, involving a robot with the mind of a child and no seafety features, we spent the first hour saying "KILL IT! YOU MORONS! KILL IT NOW!"
Plus, it was specifically programmed to imitate the facial expressions and voice techniques that humans use to communicate emotions. The programmers stated that at the beginning of the movie. The robot itself had no emotions, just a mommy-value of 100 and some programming that stated: when close to mommy--return "happy", else--return "soul-searching angst." Johnny 5 had more genuine emotions than this brat.

THEN you have the moral contradictions: When pudgy white men kill robots, it's the EVIL humans being EVIL. When David kills a robot (savagely beating the protesting childbot to death, and not even for an X-Box), it's supposed to be an endearing character moment? It's ok? No, he is as much of a robot murderer as the humans are!

And let's not gforget the whole "Earth is harsh, so we wasted materials building huge mansions and at least ten massive nifty robot-faced bridges even though we're scraping by to survive."

And how is an obsolete teddy bear smarter and more charming than the top of the line experimental child robot? If the movie had been about the bear, it wouldn't have been so stupid.

And don't get me started on the ending...

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I think that´s one of the main problems I have with people complaining, if the PT weren´t SW-films, they´d be less criticised than they are today.

That's right. They'd be forgotten.

If TPM weren't a SW movie, we wouldn't be talking about it any more than we talk about Riddick. In fact, they are on the same level of quality. (I came out of the theater slightly less disappointed with Riddick, but I hadn't had high expectations.) If AOTC were not a SW movie, it would be less well known than classics like The 5th Element, which had style and characters to go with its explosions.

I honestly would rather watch Krull or The Last Starfighter than TPM or AOTC.

[VT-16]

That's right. They'd be forgotten.

Funny, I can´t remember having written that last part? You must have taken that from an erased line I can´t remember writing or erasing.

(I came out of the theater slightly less disappointed with Riddick, but I hadn't had high expectations.)

If people hadn´t had high expectations with TPM, the same thing would have applied. Less criticism, more cult-interest, possibly.

If AOTC were not a SW movie, it would be less well known than classics like The 5th Element, which had style and characters to go with its explosions.

The 5th Element had Chris Tucker. Thanks, but no thanks.

I honestly would rather watch Krull or The Last Starfighter than TPM or AOTC.

I haven´t seen TLS, but... Krull? KRULL?? Funny man. FUNNY MAN.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

The 5th Element had Chris Tucker. Thanks, but no thanks.

There's nothing wrong with Chris Tucker if he's used properly.

[VT-16]

if he's used properly

Aaaaah, that´s the catch, isn´t it? used properly...

[Bob the Gunslinger]

That's right. They'd be forgotten.

Funny, I can´t remember having written that last part? You must have taken that from an erased line I can´t remember writing or erasing.

My mistake. I meant "You're right that there would be less criticism because the movies would be more easily ignored and forgotten."

(I came out of the theater slightly less disappointed with Riddick, but I hadn't had high expectations.)

If people hadn´t had high expectations with TPM, the same thing would have applied. Less criticism, more cult-interest, possibly.

True.
I suppose I should take that into account. I'm going by my memories from the first impressions I got since I have only seen the movie twice (many more times if you count that "edit" of it on the internet.).

If AOTC were not a SW movie, it would be less well known than classics like The 5th Element, which had style and characters to go with its explosions.

The 5th Element had Chris Tucker. Thanks, but no thanks.

It also had Bruce Willis and Mila Jovovich (sp?). Yes thanks.

I honestly would rather watch Krull or The Last Starfighter than TPM or AOTC.

I haven´t seen TLS, but... Krull? KRULL?? Funny man. FUNNY MAN.

Seriously. Krull was a fun movie. Not a great movie, but fun. I haven't seen TPM or AOTC in years because they are not fun to watch. (Well, certain scenes are, but not the majority of the movie.)

[Stofsk]

This is somewhat off-topic, but it has to do with the prequels.

What I don't understand - and really wish someone would explain this to me - is WHY did GL decided to insert the deleted scenes into TPM's DVD release, and thus made the film even MORE boring, yet didn't insert the deleted scenes into AOTC's DVD release, thereby leaving out a few good ones? (like the one with Padme and her family, including Claudia Karvan.)

Did anyone else notice this? Does anyone know why he did it?

[Tsyroc]

This is somewhat off-topic, but it has to do with the prequels.

What I don't understand - and really wish someone would explain this to me - is WHY did GL decided to insert the deleted scenes into TPM's DVD release, and thus made the film even MORE boring, yet didn't insert the deleted scenes into AOTC's DVD release, thereby leaving out a few good ones? (like the one with Padme and her family, including Claudia Karvan.)

Did anyone else notice this? Does anyone know why he did it?

Who knows, but I wish he would have put that family scene back in the movie.

I did notice that a slightly different version of Anakin confessing to Padme about killing all of the Tuskin Raiders was put in the DVD version.

[Mange]

This is somewhat off-topic, but it has to do with the prequels.

What I don't understand - and really wish someone would explain this to me - is WHY did GL decided to insert the deleted scenes into TPM's DVD release, and thus made the film even MORE boring, yet didn't insert the deleted scenes into AOTC's DVD release, thereby leaving out a few good ones? (like the one with Padme and her family, including Claudia Karvan.)

Did anyone else notice this? Does anyone know why he did it?

I agree to a point. While the extended Pod Race was boring (I never liked the Pod Race in the first place), I liked the air-taxi scene. We didn't get to see Coruscant that much in TPM. GL added one scene to the AOTC DVD (the short dialouge exchange in the garage), but left out scenes that woud've improved the movie even further (remember AOTC is already my favourite).

[VT-16]

I didn´t think much of the Padme family-scenes anyway, so I couldn´t give a damn. It just had a "superficial-drama"-quality about it. Ugh.

The airtaxi-sequence actually gave us another emotional scene. Anakin looking back to see if Qui-Gon´s coming with them and he just gestures that it´s alright and he can go without him. I liked that.

[Tsyroc]

I didn´t think much of the Padme family-scenes anyway, so I couldn´t give a damn. It just had a "superficial-drama"-quality about it. Ugh.

The airtaxi-sequence actually gave us another emotional scene. Anakin looking back to see if Qui-Gon´s coming with them and he just gestures that it´s alright and he can go without him. I liked that.

I'll grant you that the family scenes weren't the greatest but they did add a little tecture to Padme's character. Plus I think it helped make her romance with Anakin a little more believable because it showed an earlier step in her falling for him.

besides, NP looked good in the outfit she wore during those scens.