Putting an end to the Endor-holocaust-debate

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2004-08-13 07:51pm

I think we all know and agree, that the explosion of DSII wasn´t the best thing, that ever happened to Endor.

Yet in the post-ROTJ-EU we have a handful of incidents, where the ecosystem of the moon seems to be more or less intact (if you don´t look to close).

Now, i heard it somewhere mentioned, that the Rebel-Alliance had set up its headquater on Endor for a few months after the battle of Endor.

Do you think it possible, that during that time the RA used advanced terraforming-technology and decontamination-methods to repair the damage?

It would have been a massive and very expansive enterprise, but the rebels are the good guys of SW and they owned the Ewoks a lot, since they wouldn´t have won without the little furballs.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2004-08-13 08:01pm

I am not the biggest star wars fan but I did a little playing with the math and the amount of matter in the atmosphere would dwarf anything known to have happened to the earth including the KT event

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-08-13 08:20pm

Why must Endor's biosphere as a whole be saved for the Rebels to hole it out there awhile?

They establish bases on dead, airless planetoids all the time, worlds with caustic or unbreathable atmospheres, etc. The region around the Bright Tree Village that was initially sheltered to protect the ground crew could've been surrounded by a-shortly-thereafter-established local "bubble"-type defensive and atmospheric shield or based in orbit, or both for months.

Perhaps the base at the Bright Tree Village is then maintained indefinitely as a preserve, and a starting point for reclamation? Are there not small frontier bases to reclaim Camaas from total obliteration?

Perhaps the Ewoks have learned to operate the preserve later on, or its wholely automated, and Rogue Squadron wanted to "loan" the facility as a base of operations, but knowing that partically any force Isard sent could obliterate the remaining Ewoks and any chance for Endor's survival with ease.

Perhaps this is why Vader's death place is undisturbed? Its within a cordoned-off preserve from the surrounding wasteland?

Could this fix the problem?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-08-13 08:34pm

It requires some tricky but possible damage limiting to go on, mainly that the oxygen levels not drop too low for a few weeks. But other then that, with some survival gear and given the limited duration of their stay (less then a month IIRC) the Marvel comics do not contradict the Endor Holocaust

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-08-13 08:43pm

But what of putting up magcon fields?

Like I said, if they can artifically support the living spaces of a Death Star or worldcraft, than why not be able to throw up a shield within a week or two and limit the damage inside and undo that which has been done, stabilize the zone, and then from there in the future reclamation work is done.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-08-13 08:48pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:But what of putting up magcon fields?

Like I said, if they can artifically support the living spaces of a Death Star or worldcraft, than why not be able to throw up a shield within a week or two and limit the damage inside and undo that which has been done, stabilize the zone, and then from there in the future reclamation work is done.

Mag con fields are fine for explaining the rebel base.

But they can't explain the other species still observed that migrated into the area (I forget those names, those tiny, scared little thigns that hated the ewoks but could grow to monstors when fightened or angry) after the rebels had been there for a while. They should have died enroute if oxygen levels plummeted, and thus we should have been spared the need to explain their apparent violation of mass/energy.

Incidently, I put that down to the monster being a mental projection as a predation defense.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-08-13 08:59pm

Why couldn't the Gorax be within the small region originally cordoned-off.

If they can throw up a wall around a small base, how hard is it to atmospherically contain (not combat shields) an area the size of Luxumburg, to use Saxton's analogy for size.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-08-13 09:14pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why couldn't the Gorax be within the small region originally cordoned-off.

If they can throw up a wall around a small base, how hard is it to atmospherically contain (not combat shields) an area the size of Luxumburg, to use Saxton's analogy for size.

It wasn't a gorax, these things where something else. They wouldn't have been in the area because like I said, the ewoks where their enemies.

It in no way contradicts what we know, just specifies it a bit.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2004-08-14 02:42am

On his Endor-holocaust-page CS deals with the appearance of Endor in DarkForceRising, where the moon seems to be "lush and green" by speculating, that algea or microbae are spread out in the atmosphere.

Perhaps the atmosphere was seeded with artificially modiefied bacteria to absorb the metal (similar to those metal-eating fungi in Shatterpoint) and to produce oxygen.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2004-08-14 04:35am

Somebody on another board refered to "Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds" to argue against an Endor-holocaust.

Can anybody please tell me, what exactely stands there in the Endor-entry and from which point of view it is written?

Thank you.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-08-14 01:42pm

I'm more interested in the huge blast of radiation from the Death Star, one that was powerful enough to disrupt Imperial communications and even hyperwave communications(according to Truce at Bakura Sourcebook).

What life remains must have been badly mutated from the irradiation from the Death star.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-08-14 07:39pm

Gents, the Endor Holocaust is more alive than ever thanks to the new ITW book. Read the details; Endor is home to millions of Ewoks. However, there are only 200 Ewoks living in Bright Tree village.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-08-14 09:58pm

An alternate explaination...if you will

Thar be the split.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-08-14 11:31pm

I know SW Tales: is not the highest cannon but there was a story a while back where an aged Imperial stormtrooper, now long retired is at a bar talking to some "kids" about the destruction of the Sancturary moon. It seems the remnants of the Empire were fed propoganda saying that the explosion in the Endors upper atmosphere killed all the Ewoks the "kids" reply "Don't you know that with the huge explosion most of the Death Star was incinerated upon the explosion and that the Rebels moped up the biggest chunks of wreckage that was left" or something like that.

Personally i think when the main reactor explodes it will incinerate everthing it controls. Radiation is another thing but if it exploded in the upper atmosphere it should be contained. I mean the earths ozone layer is one of the lowest levels of the atmosphere and that is responsible for blocking out most of interstellar radiation and UV rays coming into Earth. So Endor should have been protected by most of the radiation. and the wreakage is almost nothing.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2004-08-14 11:51pm

Tychu wrote:and the wreakage is almost nothing.

Call me Chicken Little, but I don't really know how roughly one side of a 60% complete, 500-mile wide metal sphere raining down on one side of Endor is 'almost nothing'. Shouldn't there be millions of car-sized chunks pelting the moon and creating craters in the hundred-meter wide range, ejecting tons upon tons of dust into the air? Not to mention the wreakage that was visible from the ground.

And radiation from something that big would necessarily have to fucking suck, in qualitative terms. Someone more knowledgeable on subjects like solar radiation could probably give an idea of what bathing in catastrophic energy levels and gamma radiation does to an atmosphere.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2004-08-14 11:58pm

When a power core implodes, or in this case radiation escapes when a fussion or fission reactor implodes. The intense heat incinerates its surroundings. Look at the Chernoble Incident in the 80's or 70's. The Chernoble plant was incinerated in the section that the reactor was in. Now the Death Star has a reactor core, which controlls all power systems and fail safes. once the core implodes other systems will go offline and short out and add more fire to the flame if you will. The death star was incinerated and while also being insides the upper atmosphere, Endors atmosphere will help heat up and burn up alot of the wreackage.

I will capitulate to the fact that i cannot be certain of what will happen to the radiation bombarding Endor.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-08-15 12:22am

Tychu wrote:When a power core implodes, or in this case radiation escapes when a fussion or fission reactor implodes. The intense heat incinerates its surroundings.

Not with a fusion reactor it shouldn't.

Look at the Chernoble Incident in the 80's or 70's. The Chernoble plant was incinerated in the section that the reactor was in.

It caught fire, yes, and blew off the roof. That was (1) because the reactor design was faulty (fixed in all other graphite-moderated reactors in the USSR aftwards), the crew training was poor and (2) because there was no containment dome. A meltdown in Western (or newer Russian) reactor would not have that problem.

Now the Death Star has a reactor core, which controlls all power systems and fail safes.

The primary reactor should never power the failsafes. The were almost certainly independantly powered and controlled.

once the core implodes other systems will go offline and short out and add more fire to the flame if you will. The death star was incinerated and while also being insides the upper atmosphere, Endors atmosphere will help heat up and burn up alot of the wreackage.

The DS2 was not merely incinerated, but this is mere semantics. The other systems on the DS2 may not have gone offline immediately with the explosion of the primary reactor (due to local backup reactors) either.

I will capitulate to the fact that i cannot be certain of what will happen to the radiation bombarding Endor.

Lots of stuff dies.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2004-08-15 12:44am

Tychu wrote:The death star was incinerated and while also being insides the upper atmosphere, Endors atmosphere will help heat up and burn up alot of the wreackage.

If that is what would in fact really happen, it simply means millions of cubic miles of metal heats up the atmosphere and leaves behind millions and millions of tons of radioactive dust.

Better light your Life Tree candles, Wicket and Teebo; it's armegeddon!

I will capitulate to the fact that i cannot be certain of what will happen to the radiation bombarding Endor.

Sounds like you can't be certain of what will happen with anything concerning the explosion, and instead resort to unsubstantiated ho-humming.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-08-15 07:04am

Tychu wrote:I know SW Tales: is not the highest cannon but there was a story a while back where an aged Imperial stormtrooper, now long retired is at a bar talking to some "kids" about the destruction of the Sancturary moon. It seems the remnants of the Empire were fed propoganda saying that the explosion in the Endors upper atmosphere killed all the Ewoks the "kids" reply "Don't you know that with the huge explosion most of the Death Star was incinerated upon the explosion and that the Rebels moped up the biggest chunks of wreckage that was left" or something like that.

I see the Rebel red herring propaganda strategy worked. This is good propaganda - red herrings instead of flat out lies.

The Imperial version is true, as mandated by physics.

The Rebels tried to divert attention with the idea that most of the Death Star was "incinerated" and that the Rebels blew up the biggest chunks left. That may also be true.

It, however, takes advantage of the intuitive idea that something is gone when it is "incinerated". Certainly on a quickie glance at an incinerator, it might look that way - the pile left after incineration tends to be much smaller. But anyone who really knows science would know the Conservation of Mass and Energy, and realize the mass has just gone somewhere where it is less visible and is in a less visible form.

Even when something is vaporized, it doesn't go away. It still goes on in gaseous form. Worse, the material would have a tendency to cool, solidify and sink. And that would be the end of the planet.

Of course, that's the SoD explanation. The non-SoD explanation is that the author himself fell for this fallacy, and tried to write, something, anything to refute the idea the Rebels can possibly do a bad thing, even by accident and even for the greater good (from their POV at least).

Colonel_Maybourne · Post by **Colonel_Maybourne** » 2004-08-16 08:53am

I'm more interested in the huge blast of radiation from the Death Star, one that was powerful enough to disrupt Imperial communications and even hyperwave communications(according to Truce at Bakura Sourcebook).

What life remains must have been badly mutated from the irradiation from the Death star.

Mutated? You mean like J-Luke, Han, P-Leia and an entire planet of Ewoks? J-Luke and the rest were partying all night long without a care in the world. They didn't appear to be people who were worried about the "massive" radiation burst they recieved from the D-Star. The facts speak for themselves, all was fine. Unless you have heard that J-Luke, P-Leia or Han mutated after leaving Endor?

Sounds like you can't be certain of what will happen with anything concerning the explosion, and instead resort to unsubstantiated ho-humming.

How true. Let the facts speak for themselves thats what I always say.

The R-Fleet in orbit would easily clear the debris.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-08-16 10:15am

Colonel_Maybourne wrote:Mutated? You mean like J-Luke, Han, P-Leia and an entire planet of Ewoks? J-Luke and the rest were partying all night long without a care in the world. They didn't appear to be people who were worried about the "massive" radiation burst they recieved from the D-Star. The facts speak for themselves, all was fine. Unless you have heard that J-Luke, P-Leia or Han mutated after leaving Endor?

They happen to be in the shielded area. Even Saxton's concedes it might be possible to temporarily protect a small area - one about the size of Luxembourg. In fact, this may be working to be the new official theory.

How true. Let the facts speak for themselves thats what I always say.

The R-Fleet in orbit would easily clear the debris.

Not enough mass there.

Colonel_Maybourne · Post by **Colonel_Maybourne** » 2004-08-16 11:16am

They happen to be in the shielded area

No. I don't think so. Han, P-Leia and the Ewoks were looking up at the sky and saw the explosion. If there was any sort of radiation burst then they would have got it full on. Since they were partying soon after, I'm conviced they were fine.
The d-Star shield was destroyed so i'm not sure what shield your talking about. Unless, did the Ewok village had one?

Not enough mass there

Mass? You mean debris or fleet size?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-08-16 11:31am

Colonel_Maybourne wrote:No. I don't think so. Han, P-Leia and the Ewoks were looking up at the sky and saw the explosion. If there was any sort of radiation burst then they would have got it full on. Since they were partying soon after, I'm conviced they were fine.The d-Star shield was destroyed so i'm not sure what shield your talking about. Unless, did the Ewok village had one?

It is obvious that generally, sci-fi shields can allow a reasonable amount of visible light band EM radiation through.

I'm talking about the Rebel fleet. They can't shield the entire planet from the Death Star, but they may be able to shield that little chunk around the Ewoks, like an umbrella. That's the latest theory.

Not enough mass there

Mass? You mean debris or fleet size?[/quote]

The fleet, as compared to even a half-completed 900km wide battle station.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-08-16 11:47am

Colonel_Maybourne wrote:Mutated? You mean like J-Luke, Han, P-Leia and an entire planet of Ewoks? J-Luke and the rest were partying all night long without a care in the world. They didn't appear to be people who were worried about the "massive" radiation burst they recieved from the D-Star. The facts speak for themselves, all was fine. Unless you have heard that J-Luke, P-Leia or Han mutated after leaving Endor?

The Alliance fleet may have been able to protect a tiny fraction of the planet from debris, as is depicted in the latest ITW book. This makes sense, since the Alliance fleet didn't even know of the Ewoks' existence until after the battle, and so they should only have been concerned with the protection of their commando team on the ground.

How true. Let the facts speak for themselves thats what I always say.

The R-Fleet in orbit would easily clear the debris.

How do you come to that conclusion? Even EU material holds that the Alliance fleet did a piss-poor job of that, since there is a massive debris field left from the Battle of Endor. Moreover, if the fleet had had the ability to significantly change the velocity of a huge fraction of DS debris, then they should have used it against the DS. Seeing as how they would have had seconds or maybe a few minutes before the planet was rendered lifeless, and seeing as how they were still fighting a fleet-action at the time, I highly doubt they would have bothered attempting to preserve a species they didn't know existed.

Jawawithagun · Post by **Jawawithagun** » 2004-08-16 02:23pm

please do not forget that another part of Endor will be shielded from the direct effects of the DS2's explosion by the moon's own mass.