School prayer loopholes

[sketerpot]

In the US, school prayer is against the law. It's so very against the law that the Supreme Court has ruled against it, using such language as "A union of government and religion tends to destroy government and degrade religion." (Hugo Black, Engel v. Vitale, 1962). Naturally, a lot of people, particularly in smaller towns where few people have the guts to complain, try to find and exploit loopholes.

The main ones I know of are having students lead the prayers, and simply declaring a "moment of silence" to (wink wink nudge nudge) "contemplate".

For a more concrete example, I live in a rural town of 2000 people. One day, the superintendant of the high school I attend announced to the assembled students that at graduation, they would be having a prayer. However, it seemed to have filtered through his thick skull that this was, in fact, FUCKING ILLEGAL!!!, so he announced that students would be leading it. The school decreed that there would be a prayer at graduation, and they deliberately tried to sidestep the US Constitution in order to fulfill their desire to push Christian prayer on others.

Is this legal? Do these loopholes work? I would think that the loophole my school used would be prohibited by Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe (2000), in which the Supreme Court ruled that student-led, school-sponsored prayers at football games were illegal, and said "School sponsorship of a religious message is impermissible because it sends the ancillary message to members of the audience who are nonadherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community. "

And if it's illegal, which I think it is, what should I do? I'm going to be a senior in a few weeks, and when I graduate, I don't want some gross violation of the first amendment marring my graduation, and possibly the graduations of other people.

[Stofsk]

And if it's illegal, which I think it is, what should I do?

Impractical: sue 'em. If it's illegal, and you don't mind the lawyer shit then why not...

Practical: do not participate. Simple. When everyone else is bowing their heads and mumbling or whatever, keep your chin up with a defiant expression.

I'm going to be a senior in a few weeks, and when I graduate, I don't want some gross violation of the first amendment marring my graduation, and possibly the graduations of other people.

How so? If you don't pray then what are they going to do? Withhold your certificate of education (or whatever it is in the States) that says you passed and graduated?

[Marksist]

And if it's illegal, which I think it is, what should I do? I'm going to be a senior in a few weeks, and when I graduate, I don't want some gross violation of the first amendment marring my graduation, and possibly the graduations of other people.

This happened to me when I graduated high school (interesting that I went to a Santa Fe High School also- but not the same one from that court case). It was terrible. I grew up in a town, and went to a school in pretty much the same situation as you did Sketer. Please do NOT let them fucking do this to you like they did to my graduation. The Senior class president led a prayer at my High School graduation, and I did nothing about it. I just let it happen, as in high school I was a sort of "Closet atheist," so I just sat there and stared and felt like shit.

I actually told the story of my publicly funded religious indoctrination in another thread awhile back, and sketer I think you responded to it by saying that I should have called the ACLU. So would that be an option for you sketerpot? Maybe try that. Also, did you contact your local School Board or any administrative types about this? (I would imagine though, if it was like my situation, they probably wouldn't care about your complaints, and probably support this.)

Also, did you tell you parents about this? Not sure if they see eye to eye with your views (my Mother didn't, so I didn't tell her unfortunetely), but, if they do, you should tell them, and see if you could get any sort of legal help, maybe they would back down from this bull shit unnecessary prayer at your graduation if they had the threat of legal action.

Practical: do not participate. Simple. When everyone else is bowing their heads and mumbling or whatever, keep your chin up with a defiant expression.

I guess this would be practical if sketer maybe lives in a fundie home (llike I did), and he doesn't want to upset his parents. But, there are few things I regret in my life, and not doing anything about my rights getting stomped on in High School and at my graduation is one of them. It really bothered me, and I did what you said, I held my head up in a defiant manner, and that was about all I did. But, I still regret not doing anything more, like at least writing a letter to the state education office or taking any action, or calling the ACLU. I just sat there and took it in the ass from these fuckers. And I would hate sketerpot to have to do the same; by just sitting there and continuing to let small town isolationism trample on the Establishment Clause.

[sketerpot]

And if it's illegal, which I think it is, what should I do?

Practical: do not participate. Simple. When everyone else is bowing their heads and mumbling or whatever, keep your chin up with a defiant expression.

Thanks, I'll do that.

I'm going to be a senior in a few weeks, and when I graduate, I don't want some gross violation of the first amendment marring my graduation, and possibly the graduations of other people.

How so? If you don't pray then what are they going to do? Withhold your certificate of education (or whatever it is in the States) that says you passed and graduated?

Huh? What exactly do you mean by "How so?"? I could try to answer based on a guess, but I don't want to waste our time over a misunderstanding.

[Rye]

Could you not ask to have a part saying a prayer, then pray to the Great Lord Satan?

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

They think they have the right to let (probly more like pay or coerce) the students pray? You should presume to have the right (as you already do) to read the Bill of Rights AS LOUD AS YOU CAN AND AS OFTEN AS IT TAKES for them to realize there are reasons for our Constitution to say exactly what it means and mean exactly what it says.

[sketerpot]

The Senior class president led a prayer at my High School graduation, and I did nothing about it. I just let it happen, as in high school I was a sort of "Closet atheist," so I just sat there and stared and felt like shit.

I'm a closet atheist until I get away from this little town where even the moderates are fundies. I don't think I can change anything without putting up more of a fight than I want to put up, so I'll probably end up failing, and sitting there feeling... not like shit, but very pissed off. I wonder what number the venting threads will be up to when I graduate.

I actually told the story of my publicly funded religious indoctrination in another thread awhile back, and sketer I think you responded to it by saying that I should have called the ACLU. So would that be an option for you sketerpot? Maybe try that. Also, did you contact your local School Board or any administrative types about this? (I would imagine though, if it was like my situation, they probably wouldn't care about your complaints, and probably support this.)

And now you come to the heart of the matter: what to do. There are two options that I'm considering right now:

First, I could call the ACLU... again. And they'll mail a complaint, again. And it won't do anything, again. "Now is the time for all Christian administrators to stand up to the evil ACLU, denying us our rights to free speech!". I don't expect to stop the prayers; I just want to make some objection so that somebody in power knows that not all the students are okay with their prayers.

Second, I could mail a letter to an administrator. This wouldn't inspire the immediate "ACLU! KILL!!!!" reflex in the authoritarian fundamentalist assholes who run this school. I could de-mothball the rhetorical skills that got me through English class, cite court cases, and perhaps make someone nervous with phrases such as "You are inviting legal action". Then it would end, because they don't care what some lowly student thinks (I know these guys; it's a small town, after all), and I would be able to take some pride when I don't bow for the prayer. I'm leaning towards this one.

Also, did you tell you parents about this? Not sure if they see eye to eye with your views (my Mother didn't, so I didn't tell her unfortunetely), but, if they do, you should tell them, and see if you could get any sort of legal help, maybe they would back down from this bull shit unnecessary prayer at your graduation if they had the threat of legal action.

Maybe it's lazyness, maybe it's cowardice, but I'm not looking for anything that could degenerate into a lawsuit. I may regret it later, but I'd rather make a symbolic gesture.

Practical: do not participate. Simple. When everyone else is bowing their heads and mumbling or whatever, keep your chin up with a defiant expression.

I guess this would be practical if sketer maybe lives in a fundie home (llike I did), and he doesn't want to upset his parents.

My mother is against school prayer, but my stepfather is a preacher who believes that I should participate in such things, whether I want to or not. Not exactly a fundie home, but not the best one either.

But, there are few things I regret in my life, and not doing anything about my rights getting stomped on in High School and at my graduation is one of them. It really bothered me, and I did what you said, I held my head up in a defiant manner, and that was about all I did. But, I still regret not doing anything more, like at least writing a letter to the state education office or taking any action, or calling the ACLU. I just sat there and took it in the ass from these fuckers. And I would hate sketerpot to have to do the same; by just sitting there and continuing to let small town isolationism trample on the Establishment Clause.

I still have lingering bad memories from the last time I actively stood up to abuse of power in school. The teacher who was doing it singled me out for all the mistreatment she could heap on, and complaints to administrators were futile since their main job qualification seems to be the ability to call on parents to take an active role in their children's schooling and to say "no" to any parents who try to do so. They dupported the teacher no matter what. And the school board is worthless, since it is entirely populated by the middle-class "ladies who lunch" and "men who want to look like pillars of the community", and they have a strong tendency to be fundamentalist assclowns. If you think that passively taking it in the ass is bad, just wait until some power-addicted person starts attacking you for daring to object.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Oh boy, are you lucky. I just so happen to have just the legal case for you to cite.

Simply print this out and present it to the school.


LEE v. WEISMAN, 505 U.S. 577 (1992)

My summary thereof:
The graduation prayer was ruled unconstitutional because it “bore the imprint of the State and thus put school-age children who objected in an untenable position”, and therefore “the State, in a school setting, in effect required participation in a religious exercise.”

Those quotes are from a judge's opinion, right there in the case.

Make sure to take a picture when they read it.

[Alyrium Denryle]

what your principle is doing is so horribly illegal I cannot even describe it. Bitchslap him with the constitution.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

AND CALL ALL THE NEWSPEOPLE FROM THE NEAREST LARGE CITY YOU CAN FIND! Trust me, Fundies know that Newsies are Trouble with a Capital Tee, because they invite public scrutiny, which then brings Lawyers in droves. Lawyers may be Evil, but they are a necessary (and sometimes useful) evil...

[sketerpot]

Oh boy, are you lucky. I just so happen to have just the legal case for you to cite.

Simply print this out and present it to the school.


LEE v. WEISMAN, 505 U.S. 577 (1992)

My summary thereof:
The graduation prayer was ruled unconstitutional because it “bore the imprint of the State and thus put school-age children who objected in an untenable position”, and therefore “the State, in a school setting, in effect required participation in a religious exercise.”

Those quotes are from a judge's opinion, right there in the case.

Make sure to take a picture when they read it.

Thanks, DP! I'll use that, along with some choice excerpts. Here are some:

These dominant facts mark and control the confines of our decision: State officials direct the performance of a formal religious exercise at promotional and graduation ceremonies for secondary schools. Even for those students who object to the religious exercise, their attendance and participation in the state-sponsored religious activity are, in a fair and real sense, obligatory, though the school district does not require attendance as a condition for receipt of the diploma.

And, even better, this pure gold:

To endure the speech of false ideas or offensive content and then to counter it is part of learning how to live in a pluralistic society, a society which insists upon open discourse towards the end of a tolerant citizenry. And tolerance [505 U.S. 577, 591] presupposes some mutuality of obligation. It is argued that our constitutional vision of a free society requires confidence in our own ability to accept or reject ideas of which we do not approve, and that prayer at a high school graduation does nothing more than offer a choice. By the time they are seniors, high school students no doubt have been required to attend classes and assemblies and to complete assignments exposing them to ideas they find distasteful or immoral or absurd, or all of these. Against this background, students may consider it an odd measure of justice to be subjected during the course of their educations to ideas deemed offensive and irreligious, but to be denied a brief, formal prayer ceremony that the school offers in return. This argument cannot prevail, however. It overlooks a fundamental dynamic of the Constitution.

[...]

The lessons of the First Amendment are as urgent in the modern world as in the 18th century, when it was written. One timeless lesson is that, if citizens are subjected to state-sponsored religious exercises, the State disavows its own duty to guard and respect that sphere of inviolable conscience and belief which is the mark of a free people. To compromise that principle today would be to deny our own tradition and forfeit our standing to urge others to secure the protections of that tradition for themselves.

That's what I'll do. Thanks again!

[DPDarkPrimus]

No problem. I just so happened to write a research paper on the Pledge of Alligence a bit ago, and that was one of the cases I cited.

I tend to do my research slowly, in that I find cases and read them myself, but that makes it so much better when you can reference them later for other stuff too.

[Jessie Stamos]

I don't mind the "moment of silence" loophole. Sometimes a moment of silence can be a pretty powerful thing without any religous undertones.

But the loophole of letting the students lead prayer is downright slimy.

[The Last Rebel]

simply declaring a "moment of silence" to (wink wink nudge nudge) "contemplate".

And what's so bad about this? I think this is a good idea. It isn't religiously specific so you shouldn't piss and moan about this. Allows an individual a chance to pray or meditate on whatever's on his/her mind.

I always did pray in school--before a test. Quietly. It was one of the things I did to prepare. No one told me what I could or couldn't think. THAT is MY right. That is everyone's right.

[Utsanomiko]

During the few moments of silence my school had, I spent them playing my Gameboy- with the sound turned off.

[The Last Rebel]

See? It didn't hurt anything, now did it?

[sketerpot]

simply declaring a "moment of silence" to (wink wink nudge nudge) "contemplate".

And what's so bad about this? I think this is a good idea. It isn't religiously specific so you shouldn't piss and moan about this. Allows an individual a chance to pray or meditate on whatever's on his/her mind.

I always did pray in school--before a test. Quietly. It was one of the things I did to prepare. No one told me what I could or couldn't think. THAT is MY right. That is everyone's right.

Tell me, did you need a school-sanctioned moment of silence to pray in before tests? How about reflection or meditation? I know that there is certainly more than enough time spent sitting in desks to do enough praying and meditating and silent reflection to satisfy just about anybody. Me, I bring a book to read or paper to doodle on, since otherwise I would get too bored.

By providing a specially sanctioned moment of silence (damn feds won't let us do prayers anymore, hint hint), the school is actively promoting prayer, meditation, et cetera. It just has a distincly fishy smell to it, considering its dubious origins and the fact that it is utterly unnecessary for the activities it means to promote.

See? It didn't hurt anything, now did it?

They're annoying and unnecessary, and schools are supposed to be about things like education, not "moments of silence" put in specifically because somebody was looking for some way to give some degree of official recognition to prayer in schools.

[Utsanomiko]

See? It didn't hurt anything, now did it?

It hurt education. We all like as much quiet goof-off time as we can get in school, but it isn't productive.

[Darth Wong]

If it's happening at Graduation, disrupt the prayer by noisily walking out in the middle of it. What are they going to do, give you detention? It's the end of the last school year you're ever going to spend in that school!

[neoolong]

If it's happening at Graduation, disrupt the prayer by noisily walking out in the middle of it. What are they going to do, give you detention? It's the end of the last school year you're ever going to spend in that school!

Not give you the diploma?

[Jessie Stamos]

If it's happening at Graduation, disrupt the prayer by noisily walking out in the middle of it. What are they going to do, give you detention? It's the end of the last school year you're ever going to spend in that school!

Not a good idea. Nowadays, many school systems hand out a fake diploma at graduation and mail the real one at a later date. That way, they can threaten to not send it if there are any incidents.

[Gandalf]

If it's happening at Graduation, disrupt the prayer by noisily walking out in the middle of it. What are they going to do, give you detention? It's the end of the last school year you're ever going to spend in that school!

Not a good idea. Nowadays, many school systems hand out a fake diploma at graduation and mail the real one at a later date. That way, they can threaten to not send it if there are any incidents.

But then couldn't you just call the lawyers if they withhold the diploma?

Or call the newspeople?

[Jessie Stamos]

But then couldn't you just call the lawyers if they withhold the diploma?

Or call the newspeople?

I suppose. But then you wouldn't be done with high school forever. You'd be tied up with the school in a legal battle for who knows how long.

And try telling a college that you would have a diploma, but you're fighting the school in court for it.

Seems like it isn't worth the effort.

[Robert Treder]

The diploma they give you in the graduation ceremony isn't a diploma at all; it's just a piece of paper representing a diploma. You get your actual diploma later.
If you've been allowed to attend the graduation ceremony, they've already awarded you the diploma, and AFAIK, they cannot rescind the diploma based on conduct at the graduation. But they can kick you out of the ceremony itself.

[Stofsk]

The diploma they give you in the graduation ceremony isn't a diploma at all; it's just a piece of paper representing a diploma. You get your actual diploma later.
If you've been allowed to attend the graduation ceremony, they've already awarded you the diploma, and AFAIK, they cannot rescind the diploma based on conduct at the graduation. But they can kick you out of the ceremony itself.

From my own personal experience, the graduation ceremony is completely uncompulsory and has zero impact on whether you 'graduate' or not. At least mine was, because I didn't attend it. The final assembly was 'compulsory' in the sense school is compulsory, but again it's not like we were given our certificates or diplomas then.

At least down here, we are issued our VCE (Victorian Certificate of Education) direct from the assessment authority. The school cannot deny the certificate after you've done your exams and the results have been sent in for assessing, because they don't hand them out; the state does.