Giving up Golan won't threaten Israel's security...

[Ma Deuce]

...says the Army Chief of Staff.

I wonder what new excuses the hardline politicians are going to come up with as to why Israel "needs" to hold onto the Heights...

Link

[frigidmagi]

[hardline politician] It will show unforgiveable weakness to the enemy terrorist, causing them to uncrease their attacks upon us until we are pushed back into the sea. This general is clearly a fool and must be removed has he threatens the security of Israel.[/hardlinr politician]

You can justifiy almost anything with the must not show weakness ever line. One day they'll figure out the first to spout it and make him the Patron Saint of hardliners everywhere.

[Elfdart]

...says the Army Chief of Staff.

I wonder what new excuses the hardline politicians are going to come up with as to why Israel "needs" to hold onto the Heights...

Link

"God said so!" comes in handy at times like this.

[frigidmagi]

Actually that's the favorite line of other side of this conflict, not Isreal.

[Xenophobe3691]

What the fuck...That article was about a hunger strike. Neither the words "Golan" nor "Heights" were ever mentioned in the article. Here's the full article given by your little linky:

JERUSALEM (AP) - Palestinian prisoners launched a hunger strike Sunday, in what was shaping up to be the biggest showdown between thousands of inmates and the Israeli authorities since the outbreak of fighting in 2000.

The prisoners want more family visits and telephone access, but an Israeli cabinet minister said he'd rather let them starve. Prison officials imposed more sanctions.

In fresh violence, Israeli helicopters fired four missiles north of Gaza City near the border with Israel early Monday, witnesses said.

Israeli military sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, said soldiers spotted militants setting up a rocket launcher, and the helicopters targeted them, hitting one. Ambulances arrived at the scene but hesitated to enter because of Israeli gunfire, the witnesses said.

Meanwhile, the most prominent Palestinian prisoner is working on a smooth transition in the Gaza Strip after Israel's planned withdrawal next year.

Marwan Barghouti, a leader of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, has presented an 18-point plan for Gaza to Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and the leaders of the two militant groups responded "positively, in principle," according to a source close to Barghouti. A copy of the plan was obtained by The Associated Press.


Barghouti proposed that after the Israeli withdrawal, militant groups be given a role in running Gaza, but insisted that they halt attacks on Israel from that territory -though not from the West Bank.

Barghouti, seen as a possible successor to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, is serving five consecutive life terms for a role in attacks that killed five people, but is frequently mentioned in reports about possible prisoner exchanges.

Barghouti is taking part in the hunger strike, his daughter Aruba told The AP. The strike started Sunday with 1,600 inmates in three prisons and was to spread to others, with all 7,500 prisoners to take part by the end of the week.

The Palestinian government said it backed the prisoners and declared Wednesday a day of solidarity. "We fully support the legitimate demands of the prisoners and the ending of the policy of collective punishment, torture and terror by the Israeli prison administration against the prisoners and their families," Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia said in a statement.

In the past four years, Israeli troops have rounded up thousands of Palestinians on suspicion they were involved in bombing and shooting attacks that have killed nearly 1,000 Israelis. The prisoners are being held in Israeli jails, a large tent camp in the Negev Desert and at crowded military bases in the West Bank, where prisoners have complained of poor sanitary conditions.

The strike was organized by the main Palestinian factions -Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah. The hunger strikers want more access to telephones, a cessation of strip searches and more family visits. Many prisoners have not seen their families because an Israeli security closures bars Palestinians from Israel.

Israeli officials reacted by imposing additional sanctions -including banning all family visits and the sale of cigarettes and candy. "At this point, the security prisoners are refusing their meals and they are drinking water," said prison services spokesman Ian Domnitz.

Israeli Public Security Minister Tzachi Hanegbi said over the weekend that Israel would not give in to the prisoners' demands. "The prisoners can strike for a day, a month, even starve to death, as far as I am concerned," Hanegbi said.

The issue of prisoners is especially sensitive to Palestinians. Though it is not mentioned in the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan, initial efforts to implement the plan last year bogged down, in part, over the release of Palestinian prisoners.

Israel set free a few hundred prisoners, but Palestinians complained that most were common criminals near the end of their terms.

Qureia said release of all prisoners is a condition for a peace settlement, and "any progress in the peace process is conditioned on progress in solving this sensitive and central issue."

Also Sunday, an Israeli border policeman was seriously injured when he was stabbed in the neck near Jerusalem's Old City. He shot and killed his Palestinian attacker, police said.

In the West Bank, soldiers detained a 14-year-old Palestinian youth who was trying to smuggle a bag with 900 rifle bullets through a checkpoint, the army said.

Oh, and you're supposed to quote the article when you post a news link.

[Gil Hamilton]

Actually that's the favorite line of other side of this conflict, not Isreal.

"God says so!" is very popular in Israel as well.

[Ma Deuce]

What the fuck...That article was about a hunger strike. Neither the words "Golan" nor "Heights" were ever mentioned in the article. Here's the full article given by your little linky:

Well that's fucking strange: It was the correct article when I posted (I tested it in the preview). hell, I found the article on the same site using Google: When you look at the google page, I see the title of the "Golan" article, but when I click on it, it sends me to the "hunger strike" article.

Let me see if I can find the same article elsewhere...

[Ma Deuce]

Here is another article: it is not the exact same one I posted before, but it covers the same story...

Israel could give up occupied Golan Heights: army chief
JERUSALEM

Israel could hand back the Golan Heights seized from Syria in 1967 as part of an eventual peace deal with Syria, armed forces chief General Moshe Yaalon said in an interview published Friday.

"From the point of view of military requiurements we could reach an agreement with Syria by giving up the Golan," Yaalon told the Yediot Aharonot daily.

"The army could defend Israel's borders wherever they are, if the political authority makes the decision" to withdraw from the Golan, he said.

A senior official close to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon made it clear however that such a decision was not imminent.

"We will only negotiate with Syria if it first gives up its support for terrorist acts against Israel and makes no preconditions about the nature of a final agreement," he said.

Israel accuses Syria of supporting radical Palestinian groups such as Hamas and Lebanon's Hezbollah movement, whose militia clash sporadically with Israeli troops over a disputed border region.

Sharon himself has frequently voiced opposition to giving up the Golan Heights, which Israel annexed in 1981.

In the last talks between the two sides which broke down in January 2000 Israel's then Labour government offered to give up the territory captured in 1967 except for a strip on the shores of the Sea of Galilee, which Syria would not accept.

AFP

[frigidmagi]

God says so!" is very popular in Israel as well.

Really? I've yet to hear it, I don't suppose you could link me or something?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The Settlers in Gaza for example thing the land was given to them by god.

[Elfdart]

Actually that's the favorite line of other side of this conflict, not Isreal.

The Likud Party's platform/ manifesto call for Israel to annex all land from the Nile to the Euphrates, because Jehovah promised them they could have it. Well Zeus said I could have Palm Springs and seats on the 50 to any football game I want. So there.

I think all modern national boundaries should be drawn according to primitive mythology. I'd pay good money to watch Holland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden re-shape their borders according to Beowulf. Some Danish diplomat shouting "But Grendel's mother said we would own Angeln forever!" would be a tremendous farce. And unlike Israel, these countries wouldn't need $3 billion in handouts from the American taxpayer every year.

[Ma Deuce]

Really? I've yet to hear it, I don't suppose you could link me or something?

Many of the settlers are are Orthadox Jews, and this type can be just as fanatical (and batshit insane) as Palistinian militants...

Here is an article from 11 years ago on the subject...

But yes, "God says so" is more common on the Palistinian side, but it is by no means uncommon to the Israeli side...

[Gil Hamilton]

Really? I've yet to hear it, I don't suppose you could link me or something?

That's the reason your get alot of orthedox settlers, there because it's part of the "Promised Land" that God promised them. Many hardline Israelis literally think it's God's Will that they live there.

[frigidmagi]

Thanks for the links, I honestly had no idea. One last question, percentage wise are there more "God's Will" Isrealis or Palestindains?

Does anyone know?

[Elfdart]

Thanks for the links, I honestly had no idea. One last question, percentage wise are there more "God's Will" Isrealis or Palestindains?

Does anyone know?

I don't know, but it doesn't matter. What matters is, do these "god's will" types actually hold office? Aryan Sharon is just a thug -Milosevic in tackier clothes. But his party does contain those who believe God wants the Palestinians Ku Kluxed for a Greater Israel.

On the other side, Arafat is just a pathetic little quisling who will fuck his own people over for a few crumbs from Washington. Even the late Edward Said stated that as long as Arafat was in power, the Palestininians were screwed (my words, not Said's). As bad as he is, though it could be worse. If Hamas were to provide the next leader and REALLY step up the bombings, it would be Bosnia all over again as the Palestinians get ethnicly cleansed.

[frigidmagi]

Alright Elf boy, you just lost me. Arafat has walked away from US spondered peace plans that give him 90% of what he wanted. He is completly dependent on Jihad, Jihad, Jihad, the Palestindains hate his guts. He'll talk peace in English but his Arabic speeches call for the "Zionist" to be pushed into the sea. he is a two faced tax stealing bandit of a terrorist and the Palestindains deserve better, like a leader who willing to make a working peace, because Isreal has a right to exist.
Also he's an Egyptian, not Palestindain, so he's at worst an forgein adventur who thought he could stirke it rich leading the PLO. At worst.

Sharon is a fucking butcher I will agree there. He has no interest in peace only in Jewish domination over the Middle East and I don't believe Isreal has a right to Empire. Existance, yes. Security, yes. Sovergnity, yes. Empire? No.

[Sarevok]

Also he's an Egyptian, not Palestindain, so he's at worst an forgein adventur who thought he could stirke it rich leading the PLO. At worst.

Did not Arafat claim to be born in Jerusalem ?

[Sea Skimmer]

It won't matter what the Army says, aside from the fact that you can be damn sure all the settlers on the Golan (which Israel formally annexed, including citizenship for the existing population) vote, there are many tens of thousands more people living below the heights who are going to be rather annoyed by the prospect of Syrian guns looking down on them (though a peace deal might include the dematerialization of the heights, as was done with the Sinai). But still, formal peace with Syria isn't that important to Israel and the goverment isn't going to turn yet more voters against its self. Not until Gaza and the West Bank are dealt with anyway, and that could take another thirty years at the current rate of progress.

[Elfdart]

Alright Elf boy, you just lost me. Arafat has walked away from US spondered peace plans that give him 90% of what he wanted.

The talks gave him no such thing. That 90%-plus was to be criss-crossed with Israeli military and police installations. It would be like saying back in 1100 A.D. that the Saxons ruled England because they lived on over 90% of the land, when in fact the Normans had castles all over the place and had final say on who got to live where (and where even in "Saxon" lands, Normans had special rights not given to Saxons), and reserved the right to walk onto Saxon-in-name-only land to thrash the locals anytime they saw fit. It's horseshit in other words.

Even the pathetic little quisling, Arafat had to reject the deal which would have made him the leader of what was referred to in apartheid-era South Africa as a "bantustan" -a phony nation where a local puppet had the job of running things day to day, but had no real sovereignty and was in fact little more than a policeman and prison warden for the occupier.

He is completly dependent on Jihad, Jihad, Jihad, the Palestindains hate his guts. He'll talk peace in English but his Arabic speeches call for the "Zionist" to be pushed into the sea. he is a two faced tax stealing bandit of a terrorist and the Palestindains deserve better, like a leader who willing to make a working peace, because Isreal has a right to exist.
Also he's an Egyptian, not Palestindain, so he's at worst an forgein adventur who thought he could stirke it rich leading the PLO. At worst.

He's actually a secular thug and always has been. If he calls for jihad, it's probably to pander to those who are leaning toward Hamas. Is he a crook? Yes, but there are worse things than thieves, like Hamas. Where he was born is irrelevant. How many Israeli politicians over the years were born there? How many came from Europe?

Sharon is a fucking butcher I will agree there. He has no interest in peace only in Jewish domination over the Middle East and I don't believe Isreal has a right to Empire. Existance, yes. Security, yes. Sovergnity, yes. Empire? No.

Israel's existence is not in danger. They have the most powerful army in the region if you don't count the U.S..

[Sea Skimmer]

Israel's existence is not in danger. They have the most powerful army in the region if you don't count the U.S..

And maintaining that only requires about 15% of the Israeli GDP plus a couple billion a year for the US. Any peace deal which won't allow Israel to make major cuts in that figure isn't worth signing. Giving the Golan back might not threaten Israeli security, but it certainly will make cutting military spending much more difficult.