Missile Boat Vs Xj-Wing

[Darth Phoenix]

This is a variation of the Defender vs Xwing thread here http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=50736

What if instead of the Tie Defender it was a Missile Boat Against the Xj-Wing, since they were made to fight against the Tie Defender.

[Kerneth]

What's the warhead loadout on the MB? Four racks of concussion missiles, or two racks each of concussion missiles and proton torpedos?

XJ should have better shields and be faster (perhaps not faster than the SLAM drive however) and more manueverable. It also has 4 laser cannons to the MB's single gun, and has 3 proton torpedo tubes to the MB's 2 concussion missile/2 whatever launchers.

I'd tend to give it to the XJ, personally. I realize the MB is designed to kill TIE Defenders but the XJ is faster, better-shielded, and has more powerful lasers than the TIE Defender does. If you go with official literature (instead of the games) the primary armament of the MB--concussion missiles--have a maximum range of .5 kilometers. This has likely been increased by the time of the NJO novels (and presumably the MB will have the most modern missiles available), but it's still designed as a short-range weapon. An XJ is going to shred the MB long before it gets that close, with lasers if nothing else. And the X-Wing's proton torpedos are considerably longer-ranged than the concussion missiles.

Hell, if stutterfire lasers are still powerful enough to kill incoming warheads, that particular modification on the XJ should make it all but immune to the MB in a head-to-head pass. The XJ should be able to just lay down stutterfire between it and the MB to knock out incoming warheads, while the MB's single laser cannon is going to have difficulty taking out three incoming proton torpedos from the XJ.

After the intial head-to-head, if both parties survive, the XJ is going to be trying to manuever into position in the MB's rear arc to take it out with laser or proton torpedo fire. The MB can outrun the XJ (with the SLAM drive) but can't outmanuever it--and can't outrun the XJ's lasers or torpedos. The tractor beam is a bit of a wild card, but once again it's fairly short-ranged, and the XJ's manueverability means that a competent pilot shouldn't be caught crossing right in front of the MB, at close range, and in a fashion that lets the MB snag it. In the initial head-to-head pass, of course, catching the XJ in a tractor beam is going to be a quick and dirty form of suicide, albeit possibly taking the XJ with it.

The massive ammunition capacity of the MB is wasted in a fighter vs fighter duel against a ship that can match or exceed it in terms of speed, firepower and manueverability--the fight's just not likely to last long enough for all that ammunition to be useful.

And, frankly, the reason the MB was death on starfighters in TIE Fighter was because it was usually up against hordes of much weaker fighters that were all but ignoring it in favor of goofing around letting it take leisurely potshots at them.

[Master of Ossus]

This is kind of unfair, since the Missile Boat isn't designed to be a dogfighter. It's designed to let other starfighters do the fighting and support them with missiles, while bombing any capital ships that step in. The X-wing is a pure space superiority fighter. If I had to take one of them, I'd go with the missile boat, but I'd also recognize its limitations.

[Sharp-kun]

What's the warhead loadout on the MB? Four racks of concussion missiles, or two racks each of concussion missiles and proton torpedos?

In TIE Fighter it was 4 Missile launchers. 2 were dedicated to Adv. Concussion Missiles and carried 20 each. The other 2 were multi purpose and could be loaded with either 20 missiles, 15 Torps, 10 Rockets or 5 Space Bombs. Most it could carry was 80 Adv Missiles.

And the X-Wing's proton torpedos are considerably longer-ranged than the concussion missiles.

Load the second set of launchers with Torps and thats solved.


At the moment I'm not sure which would take this, though I'm edging towards the Missile Boat.

[Praxis]

If the Missle boat torpedoes the X-wing on the head to head pass, Missle boat wins. If it fails to get the X-wing, the X-wing torpedoes it, and it is unable to dodge. Then the boat's missle that missed circles around and gets the X-wing.

Tie!

[nightmare]

While the XJ is more durable than the TIE Defender it is also less manuverable (typical for X-Wings vs TIE fighters..) Weapons are about equal and in any case not a deciding factor. Since maneuverabiliy is the most important factor in a one-on-one after pilot skill, I'd give it less chance than the TIE.

In conclusion, the Missile Boat pummels it to death while slowing it down with the tractor beam, just like it would combat a TIE/de. If the XJ somehow survives to initiate a dogfight, it should win.. although the MB would hit the SLAM and take off while the XJ tries to lock on torps from behind. Start over again if the MB survives.

[Solauren]

Depending on the Missile Boat weapon configuration, it could have upwards of 80 Concussion Missiles.

There is no way in hell the X-wing could shot them all down.

All the MB would have to do is overcharge is shields and fully charge it's lasers, shields on double front, and SLAM at the X-wing, and fire off 2 warheads at point blank range

I think dual Advanced Protons or a set of Heavy Rockets slaming into the X-wing would do it.

However, if the X-wing launches torpedoes at the same time....

This almost comes down to who's flying the fighters.

[Alyeska]

Missle Boat was designed to take down the Tie-Defender, and it was able to do that with ease. XJ-Wing goes down.

[Chris OFarrell]

I'm not even sure how canon the MB *IS*. Certianly its super Tractor + Massive Concussion Magazine combination is not offical. Nor realisticly can it have anything LIKE the number of warheads Tie Fighter credits it with. Simply due to its tiny size vs the number of missiles other fighters carry and their size. The MB simply doesn't have the ROOM to mount 80 concussion missiles.

The MB's only real chance is to kill the XJ on the first pass. Simply spaming with enough warheads to score a kill. Not that the reverse is also true, with three tubes the X-J can spam right back, if not with the same stamina. But if it gets into a Dogfight, the MB is blown appart in short order. The XJ is for all intents and purposes the TD's equal, somewhat cheaper for more or less the same performance.

Hell online I've played against Missile Boat whores, easily (well no easily but quite often) denying them the kill as they closed then curving onto their tail and gutting them before they can slam out of range. And if they do manage to get out of the way, they use up sooooo much energy from their guns and shields that they are an easy kill. Just half blindfire a missile at them and cause them to panic and brake off, then blow them away with a well timed volley of laserfire

[Sharp-kun]

The XJ is for all intents and purposes the TD's equal, somewhat cheaper for more or less the same performance.

but the Missile Boat was developed to kill the TIE Defender. Regardless of uncertaintly over its actual stats, we can be fairly certain of its purpose.

[Vympel]

I'm not even sure how canon the MB *IS*. Certianly its super Tractor + Massive Concussion Magazine combination is not offical. Nor realisticly can it have anything LIKE the number of warheads Tie Fighter credits it with. Simply due to its tiny size vs the number of missiles other fighters carry and their size. The MB simply doesn't have the ROOM to mount 80 concussion missiles.

The Missile Boat is unequivocally C-level canon; that is inescapable. The plot of TIE Fighter (including expansion packs) certainly can't happen without it. Why isn't its Beam Weapon mount official, or its concussion magazines? It depends on how small the warheads are, really. They could be stacked. It does have four massive launch cells (two on either side of the cockpit, and the two pods) after all.

[Chris OFarrell]

The XJ is for all intents and purposes the TD's equal, somewhat cheaper for more or less the same performance.

but the Missile Boat was developed to kill the TIE Defender. Regardless of uncertaintly over its actual stats, we can be fairly certain of its purpose.

We can be certian that it was a weapon that can do it in the right HANDS and with the right support. Its simply NOT a dogfighter. If it trys to get into a furball with a Tie Defender, it dies. It lacks the energy weapons, manouverability and speed, the SLAM nonwithstanding.

Now with a pack of Tie Advanced fighters its a fantasic force multiplier. It can stand off and deliver massive fire support into the fight, using its slams for quick hit and run attacks. And it has enough firepower to make even medium capital ships think twice about closing with a small Starfighter pack.

But exactly how Canon the events of Tie Fighter are are not clear. Its clear the pilot (Steyle IIRC) didn't shoot down close to a thousand fighters and dozens of heavy cap ships by himself in between Hoth and Endor. I'd have to have a look at the EGVW to see what it says about the missile boat before I made a comment, but we can safely say the MB isn't exactly as represented in the computer games, at the least.

[Vympel]

But exactly how Canon the events of Tie Fighter are are not clear. Its clear the pilot (Steyle IIRC) didn't shoot down close to a thousand fighters and dozens of heavy cap ships by himself in between Hoth and Endor. I'd have to have a look at the EGVW to see what it says about the missile boat before I made a comment, but we can safely say the MB isn't exactly as represented in the computer games, at the least.

It's a given that Steele couldn't possibly have killed all those capital ships etc. by himself and that in most engagements he didn't simply hog all the kills because his wingmen were morons, but in general, the events related must've occured.

What happened to Steele, anyway?

[Chris OFarrell]

The Missile Boat is unequivocally C-level canon; that is inescapable.

Would SOMEONE like to tell me what the heck all this is about 'C' level canon and crap these days? What happened to the nice easy designatiors of offical and canon?

Regardless, the T/D has been seen several times in the novels of the EU. THe Missile boat however has not. Tie Fighter is only canon IIRC (and the video games as a matter of fact) insomuch as the most general events are accepted to happen. E.G Admiral Zarin betrays the Empire with a failed coup that is put down by Thrawn. However much of the game mecahnices (and the MB's abilities) can be put under that description, simply to make the pilot able to do what he can.

Its the same as the ships moving at meters per second, having non regenerative shields, mines being able to launch missiles after being hit with a high yield anti ship rocket and blown up, weapons ranges in the kilometers only, you get the idea. That the MB exists is not in dobut. That it has the states of Tie Fighter, is.

The plot of TIE Fighter (including expansion packs) certainly can't happen without it.

Exactly HOW canon that guy is is also in question. The idea that he just vanishes into thin air, neither the ALliance or Empire ever remembering or having him come up again is just crazy. For that matter, the fact that Baron Sonitnor Fel is considered the greatest Imperial Pilot and he never did a fraction of the stuff THIS guy did...not to mention some of the facts in the game are um...slightly questionable.

So I take anything except the most basic outline of the events in the games as extreemly questionable.

Why isn't its Beam Weapon mount official,

The Beam weapon is. Its ability to have enough power to completly arrest a Starfighter of roughly equal performance is in question however. Several EU sources actualy say that ships of equal sizes don't have anything like the power needed in a tractor beam to move another ship against its will. Even discounting things like shields partialy blocking the beam.

or its concussion magazines? It depends on how small the warheads are, really. They could be stacked. It does have four massive launch cells (two on either side of the cockpit, and the two pods) after all.

Starfighter launched concussion missiles are not small. They are of comprable size to Proton torpedoes which are not small, you can see the size of said torpedoes in the Original ICS. Of if you look at Episode II, Slave I's missiles aint exactly small. There is no way in all HELL those cells could fit fourty of them. Its hard enough for the X-Wing to fit three of the things in its launchers. The XJ in order to fit a third tube with a few more torpedoes had to scrap its cargo bay. The Missile boat ALSO has to fit in some preaty good engines, shields, hyperdrive and power core and these things aint small.

[Chris OFarrell]

It's a given that Steele couldn't possibly have killed all those capital ships etc. by himself and that in most engagements he didn't simply hog all the kills because his wingmen were morons, but in general, the events related must've occured.

Whoooops. Your starting to blur the line here. If you start saying "Oh well of COURSE he didn't do this and of course these events must not have happened EXACTLY as shown, your steping away from suspension of disbelief and into the wonderful world of subjective fun!

Which is where I am as far as I am concerned, you can't take ANYTHING in the game at face value. But you can no more say the missile boat is exactly as presented as a killer of TD's by the Squadrons as I can say I can take down an ISD in a Tie Bomber without too much trouble (and yes I have done that )

[Vympel]

Whoooops. Your starting to blur the line here. If you start saying "Oh well of COURSE he didn't do this and of course these events must not have happened EXACTLY as shown, your steping away from suspension of disbelief and into the wonderful world of subjective fun!

No, I'm following Steve Sansweet's words, in particular, the "foggy window" quote. It's impossible for the events to have occured exactly as any of us who played TIE Fighter saw, because not a single one of us achieved the exact number of kills etc and fought the exact same way that anyone else did- that's whats subjective. There's also the simple reason of gameplay mechanics. However, the events that transpired in the game are indisputable- it isn't "Infinities", therefore it occured.

Which is where I am as far as I am concerned, you can't take ANYTHING in the game at face value. But you can no more say the missile boat is exactly as presented as a killer of TD's by the Squadrons as I can say I can take down an ISD in a Tie Bomber without too much trouble (and yes I have done that )

I'm not saying it's a killer of TIE Defenders by the squadrons, but what it was designed for and what it can do in capable hands (Steele's) are factual, as are the events of TIE Fighter. What we know is that no matter what exactly transpired, Steele did engage TIE Defenders in combat in a Missile Boat, always drastically outnumbered, and was victorious. As you said, if the Missile Boat is in the EGtVV, we need to see it- however, TIE Fighter is C-canon, without doubt (my original reason for posting along this tangent).

[nightmare]

The Missile Boat is unequivocally C-level canon; that is inescapable.

Would SOMEONE like to tell me what the heck all this is about 'C' level canon and crap these days? What happened to the nice easy designatiors of offical and canon?

The new SW canon

Regardless, the T/D has been seen several times in the novels of the EU. THe Missile boat however has not. Tie Fighter is only canon IIRC (and the video games as a matter of fact) insomuch as the most general events are accepted to happen. E.G Admiral Zarin betrays the Empire with a failed coup that is put down by Thrawn. However much of the game mecahnices (and the MB's abilities) can be put under that description, simply to make the pilot able to do what he can.

Its the same as the ships moving at meters per second, having non regenerative shields, mines being able to launch missiles after being hit with a high yield anti ship rocket and blown up, weapons ranges in the kilometers only, you get the idea. That the MB exists is not in dobut. That it has the states of Tie Fighter, is.

The plot of TIE Fighter (including expansion packs) certainly can't happen without it.

Exactly HOW canon that guy is is also in question. The idea that he just vanishes into thin air, neither the ALliance or Empire ever remembering or having him come up again is just crazy. For that matter, the fact that Baron Sonitnor Fel is considered the greatest Imperial Pilot and he never did a fraction of the stuff THIS guy did...not to mention some of the facts in the game are um...slightly questionable.

So I take anything except the most basic outline of the events in the games as extreemly questionable.

Why isn't its Beam Weapon mount official,

The Beam weapon is. Its ability to have enough power to completly arrest a Starfighter of roughly equal performance is in question however. Several EU sources actualy say that ships of equal sizes don't have anything like the power needed in a tractor beam to move another ship against its will. Even discounting things like shields partialy blocking the beam.

or its concussion magazines? It depends on how small the warheads are, really. They could be stacked. It does have four massive launch cells (two on either side of the cockpit, and the two pods) after all.

Starfighter launched concussion missiles are not small. They are of comprable size to Proton torpedoes which are not small, you can see the size of said torpedoes in the Original ICS. Of if you look at Episode II, Slave I's missiles aint exactly small. There is no way in all HELL those cells could fit fourty of them. Its hard enough for the X-Wing to fit three of the things in its launchers. The XJ in order to fit a third tube with a few more torpedoes had to scrap its cargo bay. The Missile boat ALSO has to fit in some preaty good engines, shields, hyperdrive and power core and these things aint small.

Mind you, the bays on the MB together are larger than the body of an entire X-Wing. Also, torpedoes, according to the same game, are larger than missiles.

[Vympel]

Would SOMEONE like to tell me what the heck all this is about 'C' level canon and crap these days? What happened to the nice easy designatiors of offical and canon?

See the new SW canon sticky. It's now G-canon and C-canon. That doesn't mean previous canon heirarchy stuff is eliminated, of course.

Regardless, the T/D has been seen several times in the novels of the EU. THe Missile boat however has not. Tie Fighter is only canon IIRC (and the video games as a matter of fact) insomuch as the most general events are accepted to happen. E.G Admiral Zarin betrays the Empire with a failed coup that is put down by Thrawn. However much of the game mecahnices (and the MB's abilities) can be put under that description, simply to make the pilot able to do what he can.

I'd agree with that, except to say that the MB *must* be able to reliably compete with the TIE Defender, at the very least.

Exactly HOW canon that guy is is also in question. The idea that he just vanishes into thin air, neither the ALliance or Empire ever remembering or having him come up again is just crazy. For that matter, the fact that Baron Sonitnor Fel is considered the greatest Imperial Pilot and he never did a fraction of the stuff THIS guy did...not to mention some of the facts in the game are um...slightly questionable.

Maybe he retired

Starfighter launched concussion missiles are not small. They are of comprable size to Proton torpedoes which are not small, you can see the size of said torpedoes in the Original ICS.

How do we know the concussion missiles are analogous in size to the Proton Torpedoes used by the X-Wing? We see the concussion missiles of the Falcon, but these can't be the concussion missiles of an A-Wing- they're too big to fit out of the tubes. If you check the original ICS, see the Y-Wing's torpedo tubes- it has a semi-circular rack holding *twelve* proton torpedoes- and that's just in the space of the Y-Wing's cockpit section. If we assume that the missile bays of the Missile Boat extend all the way along their pods, they could hold a whole lotta warheads (depending on size).

Of if you look at Episode II, Slave I's missiles aint exactly small.

Slave I's missiles couldn't fit in an X-Wing torpedo tube.

There is no way in all HELL those cells could fit fourty of them. Its hard enough for the X-Wing to fit three of the things in its launchers. The XJ in order to fit a third tube with a few more torpedoes had to scrap its cargo bay. The Missile boat ALSO has to fit in some preaty good engines, shields, hyperdrive and power core and these things aint small.

If we assume that the Missile Boat has concussion missiles the size of X-Wing and Y-Wing model proton torpedoes, that would only require 3 1/3 times the interesting looking loading mechanism that's crammed underneath the Y-Wing's cockpit section- with those two huge cells sticking out of the craft proper, it seems possible that they could hold 40. If you assume just one set per cell (and I'm only talking about the two huge ones) that's already 24, remember.