Kerry needs more Tom Harkins and fewer Tom Daschles.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-08-15 11:43am

From the Des Moines Register:

[Iowa Seantor Tom] Harkin, who served as a jet pilot in the Navy and in the Naval Reserve, then attacked the military records of Bush, whose service in the Texas Air National Guard and Alabama National Guard have been questioned.

"Maybe the president should go back" into the military, Harkin said. "He didn't do much when he was young. How about Cheney? During the Vietnam War, Vice President Cheney said he had five deferments and he had other priorities."

During a visit to Clive on Tuesday, Cheney said Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry lacks the basic understanding of the war on terrorism to protect Americans. Harkin shot back Friday.

"When I hear this coming from Dick Cheney, who was a coward, who would not serve during the Vietnam War, it makes my blood boil," Harkin said. "Those of us who served and those of us who went in the military don't like it when someone like a Dick Cheney comes out and he wants to be tough. Yeah, he'll be tough. He'll be tough with somebody else's blood, somebody else's kids. But not when it was his turn to go."

Kerry should have vets like Harkin busting Bush/ Cheney's balls every day for their desertion and draft-dodging.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-08-15 04:33pm

What Kerry needs is to grow some balls himself and say those things personally. He already walked the walk, he needs to start talking the talk.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-08-15 05:09pm

I disagree. It's undignified for a candidate to himself attack the other unless it's face-to-face, like in a debate. Bush uses stand-ins and not just because he's a gutless coward and would be laughed off the podium for impugning Kerry's record.

I do think Kerry would be better served if he had better spokesmen to appear on the talking head shows (see the last few Daily Howlers). The best was the guy with the mustache from Veterans For Kerry who flat-out called the swift-boat liars on their bullshit on Chris Matthews' show.

I just hope remarks like those from Tom Harkin are going to be a trend for the Kerry campaign.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2004-08-17 12:59pm

Tom Harkin is the man. This is added to my list of why I'm voting for him come election time.

And I totally agree about Kerry having to stand up for himself.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-08-18 01:21am

Harkin... didn't he run on the fact that he flew combat missions in Vietnam, and then it turns out he didn't?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-08-18 01:10pm

Beowulf wrote:Harkin... didn't he run on the fact that he flew combat missions in Vietnam, and then it turns out he didn't?

Bingo.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-08-18 01:44pm

Joe wrote:
Beowulf wrote:Harkin... didn't he run on the fact that he flew combat missions in Vietnam, and then it turns out he didn't?
Bingo.

Wow, you've got to love the irony in that.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-08-18 04:16pm

Beowulf wrote:Harkin... didn't he run on the fact that he flew combat missions in Vietnam, and then it turns out he didn't?

Excerpted from Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of Its Heroes and Its History

During a 1992 bid for the presidency, Sen. Tom Harkin of Iowa claimed that he had served as a pilot in Vietnam. His claim surfaced eight years before, during a 1984 bid for reelection to the Senate, when Harkin boasted that he had served one year in Vietnam flying F-4s and F-8s on combat air patrols and photo-reconnaissance support missions.

Challenged by Sen. Barry Goldwater, Harkin did a quick shuffle, claiming that he had actually flown combat sorties over Cuba during the sixties. Harkin finally admitted that he had not seen combat but had served as a ferry pilot stationed in Atsugi, Japan, flying aircraft to be repaired from Atsugi to the Phillipines. When pressed by reporters to explain how much time he had really spent in Vietnam, Harkin estimated that over a year, he flew in and out of Vietnam a dozen or so times. But Harkins military record showed no Vietnam service decorations. He finally conceded he had not flown combat air patrols in Vietnam and began describing himself as a Vietnam -era- vet.

Yes, the DNC needs MORE Harkins

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-08-19 12:19am

Unlike your big hero Dubya -at least Harkin showed up.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-08-19 12:30am

Elfdart wrote:Unlike your big hero Dubya -at least Harkin showed up.

Bush so far as has been ascertained filled his requirements. Of course he hasn't lied about being in Vietnam either.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-08-19 01:05am

Stormbringer wrote:
Elfdart wrote:Unlike your big hero Dubya -at least Harkin showed up.
Bush so far as has been ascertained filled his requirements.

Bullshit. One of Bush's requirements was to appear for a mandatory physical for pilots. Bush never showed, and he was grounded. He never took the physical and was never seen by the pilots or crews of the Alabama Guard. Not a single member of the unit Numbnuts was assigned to can remember seeing him there.

www.memphisflyer.com/content.asp?ID=2834&onthefly=1

Stormbringer wrote:Of course he hasn't lied about being in Vietnam either.

Really?

George W. Bush on sacrifice:
"I've been to war. I've raised twins. If I had a choice, I'd rather go to war."
Houston Chronicle, January 2002

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-08-19 01:06am

His last physical shows him credited with 625 flight hours, elfshit.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-08-19 01:13am

MKSheppard wrote:His last physical shows him credited with 625 flight hours, elfshit.

And? How does that explain his desertion from the Guard, Sheepfucker?

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-08-19 01:18am

As I said before, Kerry needs to grow some balls, because when he lets wannabes defend him, this happens.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-08-19 02:12am

Elfdart wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:His last physical shows him credited with 625 flight hours, elfshit.
And? How does that explain his desertion from the Guard, Sheepfucker?

Someone who isn't flying isn't going to need a physical. A lack of a plane to fly in would present that, wouldn't it? So no need to have a physical. Dubya's records show him to have put in more than an adequate number of points toward completing his service throughout his term. Ergo, he's free and clear. You show a article from someone who was at the same base Dubya was at during his last year of service. Air Force Bases are big, and someone who isn't there very often, like someone helping at a campaign, would be rather hard to fucking find. But hey, that doesn't matter to someone who just wants to bash Bush, does it?

Where's your proof he deserted, Donkeyfucker?

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-08-19 09:26am

Elfdart has this little thing about evidence. He doesn't give it, and hopes that all the vitriol will disguise that fact.

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2004-08-19 09:49am

Try this:

www.awolbush.com under the heading "Deserter".

Why is it that not a single one of his fellow pilots from the Alabama unit remembers THE GUY WHO WENT ON TO BECOME PRESIDENT EVER SHOWING UP FOR DUTY?

This quip from one of the pilots who did show up is telling:

“I never saw hide nor hair of Mr. Bush,” confirms Bishop, who now lives in Goldsboro, N.C., is a veteran of Gulf War I and, as a Kalitta pilot, has himself flown frequent supply missions into military facilities at Kuwait. "In fact," he quips, mindful of the current political frame of reference, "I saw more of Al Sharpton at the base than I did of George W. Bush."

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-08-19 10:02am

Elfdart wrote:Try this:

www.awolbush.com under the heading "Deserter".

Why is it that not a single one of his fellow pilots from the Alabama unit remembers THE GUY WHO WENT ON TO BECOME PRESIDENT EVER SHOWING UP FOR DUTY?

Because he did the overwhelming majority of his time at (I forget the proper military term) on alternate duties. It's all pre-approved alternative stuff and it's not at all unheard of; it's legal and allowed and there are plenty of Guardsmen that take the option.

Now you can argue that that doesn't count for a hell of a lot, that he skirked Vietnam, or what not; he didn't contribute much to this country's defense. But the simple fact is that Bush completed his service satisfactorialy. Simply saying no one saw him, he must have deserted doesn't cut it as far as evidence.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-08-19 10:50am

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp

The right side column is Bush's info.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2004-08-19 11:57am

In defense of Bush, in the Guard, if you're not needed, then alot of times you don't need to show up. It is entirely possible for someone to complete pilot training, just to have their unit say 'don't call us, we'll call you'. In today's day and age that's unlikely considering the Guard's heavy involvement overseas, but back in the Vietnam era where the Guard had nothing but obselete hand-me-downs from the active forces, and never saw combat, such occurances probably happened quite often.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-08-19 12:20pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:In defense of Bush, in the Guard, if you're not needed, then alot of times you don't need to show up. It is entirely possible for someone to complete pilot training, just to have their unit say 'don't call us, we'll call you'. In today's day and age that's unlikely considering the Guard's heavy involvement overseas, but back in the Vietnam era where the Guard had nothing but obselete hand-me-downs from the active forces, and never saw combat, such occurances probably happened quite often.

Quite probably the best thing Reagan accomplished as president was making sure that the National Guard wasn't the poor joke of the Armed Forces.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-08-19 01:07pm

Iceberg wrote:http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp

The right side column is Bush's info.

None of which proves the ridiculous claim that Bush deserted.

It does show that he missed a physical and that he took alternate duty most of them time. As far as I can tell, all your bullshit evidence fits perfectly with that. Not a particularly stellar record but there's nothing that comes close to desertion.

Talon Karrde · Post by **Talon Karrde** » 2004-08-19 07:43pm

Beowulf wrote:Harkin... didn't he run on the fact that he flew combat missions in Vietnam, and then it turns out he didn't?

And I'm still sickened we elect him every election here in Iowa. Harkin must think he has a lot of balls to get up there and call Cheney a coward and then forget in the same sentence that he himself is a lieing moron. Congratulations Mr. Harkin, you've shown once again you have no credibility whatsoever. IMO, Harkin's still pissed that Gore didn't win, and he didn't get his cabinet post as Sec. of Agriculture.