Mon Calamari ships: Liner refits?

[Iceberg]

Phongn and I were discussing this over AIM this evening.

There's considerable evidence that the Mon Calamari cruisers are not, as WEG and the EU have asserted, converted luxury liners. The Mon Cal ships are simply too durable in combat and too well-armed to be converted liners.

Among the possibilities we came up with include nominal rebuilds of old ships sold to the yards for scrap, or military-grade ships built without weapons but fitted out with provisions to mount weapons on short notice.

Ideas? Comments? Bricks?

[Tychu]

of course there not converted luxurty liners. In the EU it states that each ship is built individually and all variey for uses of combat. Than in Spector the the Past, Wedge comments that he likes the "new" models of the Mon Cal cruisers better because they seem like a fighter with the open cockpit and broad windows. He comments that Ackbar dosent like them because they were not as fit for combat as the originial ones are because in the original the cockpits were secure and not out in the open which make them better because they protect the command crew.

Luxury Liners have no purpose to protect the command crew and most passengers want a nice open feeling ship not an enclosed bulbous one we see as the orginal Mon Cal cruisers

[phongn]

of course there not converted luxurty liners. In the EU it states that each ship is built individually and all variey for uses of combat.

The EU (originally WEG) also states that they were converted luxury liners at first in the Rebellion era.

Than in Spector the the Past, Wedge comments that he likes the "new" models of the Mon Cal cruisers better because they seem like a fighter with the open cockpit and broad windows.

He says that in The New Rebellion, IIRC. In SOTP he's back to being an X-Wing jock assigned to Bel Iblis' naval squadron.

He comments that Ackbar dosent like them because they were not as fit for combat as the originial ones are because in the original the cockpits were secure and not out in the open which make them better because they protect the command crew.

The original ones had external command pods which were not well protected in the case of shield failure. The ones designed starting with the MC80B were the ones heavily-protected.

Luxury Liners have no purpose to protect the command crew and most passengers want a nice open feeling ship not an enclosed bulbous one we see as the orginal Mon Cal cruisers

Windows can go away, you know.

[phongn]

Among the possibilities we came up with include nominal rebuilds of old ships sold to the yards for scrap, or military-grade ships built without weapons but fitted out with provisions to mount weapons on short notice.

Just to clarify, Ice means "nominal rebuild" as in "lift the ship's bell from the ship, send old hull to the breakers and put a new hull in." The USN did that often in lean times, selling to Congress "refits" instead of new ships.

In the 1980s, they did a similar trick to get the SPS-48E radar -- Congress wouldn't give them a new radar so they proposed an "improved" version of an existing one

Ideas? Comments? Bricks?

Marina brought up the idea of them being originally designed as an armored merchant cruiser (like Lusitania).

[Knife]

The idea that the Mon Calamari were building starliners and then adapted their schematics to war ships is one to be considered. The basic design that is altered to become a warship makes sense when considering the docking bay placement and the weapons 'slits'.

[Mange]

The idea that the Mon Calamari were building starliners and then adapted their schematics to war ships is one to be considered. The basic design that is altered to become a warship makes sense when considering the docking bay placement and the weapons 'slits'.

WARNING! MIGHT CONTAIN INFO THAT COULD BE REGARDED AS SPOILERS!


I don't agree, since the background of which this is based has been changed. It can no longer be considered a spoiler (because the official site has mentioned it several times) that we'll see an Mon Calamari in Episode III. Thus the Mon Calamari was part of the Galactic community much earlier than stated in WEG material (that states that the first contact was made with the Empire). BTW, I doubt that converted liners can be that powerful. Of course, we have analogies in real life, especially during the two World Wars when liners were converted to troop carriers. This didn't mean that they were effective in battle though. One interesting tidbit, Titanic's older sister ship, the Olympic, is the only liner that ever have sunk a submarine (during the First World War).

[PainRack]

Errrr, to retcon it, maybe the Mon Cal took an obselete cruiser design and converted it to become cruise ships? When war came, they remilitarised the designs.
Something like that Thai carrier which became the Royal family cruise ship, before they refitted it back to operational status.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

He comments that Ackbar dosent like them because they were not as fit for combat as the originial ones are because in the original the cockpits were secure and not out in the open which make them better because they protect the command crew.

Cockpit? Up till this moment, I'd have thought that part of the ship is called the bridge.

Bridges are generally exposed AFAIK, in order to allow for visual navigation. Doesn't mean that in combat, one has to stay there.

[Stofsk]

He comments that Ackbar dosent like them because they were not as fit for combat as the originial ones are because in the original the cockpits were secure and not out in the open which make them better because they protect the command crew.

Cockpit? Up till this moment, I'd have thought that part of the ship is called the bridge.

Wedge is a Fighter Jock, y'know. He probably got his terms mixed up.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Wedge is a Fighter Jock, y'know. He probably got his terms mixed up.

But still, even a ten year old boy knows the difference between a cockpit and a bridge. Man, how can someone who failed basic Basic (as in the local language) possibly become one of the best fighter pilots in the galaxy?

[phongn]

But still, even a ten year old boy knows the difference between a cockpit and a bridge. Man, how can someone who failed basic Basic (as in the local language) possibly become one of the best fighter pilots in the galaxy?

Going out of SoD, we have poor authors like those who wrote TNR. AFAIK, Wedge has not made that mistake elsewhere. Either that or Tychu is misquoting it.

[Master of Ossus]

IIRC, Wedge did say "bridge," but he also preferred ones that were open to space because they reminded him more of a fighter cockpit, as opposed to reminding him that he was an old-guy who would soon be at a desk job.

[Ender]

I brought this up with IP a few days ago.

Based off the history of Mon Calamari that we now know, I think a few changes in interporation can be made.

According to the Clone wars stories and Geonosis and the Outer Rim; Mon Cal was a sanctuary planet like Endor. The Mon Cals managed to get to space and make contact. They did, and as a result, the leading famalies got filty stinking rich ala the explorers of America. During this time they get senate representation, and build their own local sector fleet with bits of standard tech (things like the MC40 star frigate I'd imagine) Then come the clone wars. Dooku tours there, and sees that the had built up shipyards comparable to those at Gyndine or Fondor in scale, though woefully behind in technology from the galactic standard. He kills the ruling class with the Dark Reaper and trashes a few cities, his loyalists there throw support behind him, and he begins to bring in galactic standard tech to upgrade the shipyards. Then the Republic comes in, overthrows things, and takes over. The Confederacy pulls out, hammering the shipyards as they do, and taking with them the war desings and warships the Cals had built. The Republic begins to rebuild and upgrade, and then the wars end and the empire comes to be. They still have control of the shipyards, and strictly regulate what the mon clas do so that "seperatists holdouts" won't disrupt to. Trying to get their economy back on its feet after getting hammered twice in the war, they begin to sell luxury liners, recycling war designs to save money and increase profits but equipping them with only civillian gear. Mon Cals get fed up, throw the Imperials out on their ears, who trash the shipyards as they pull out AGAIN. (Hence why the empire didn't bother trying to retake it, they thought it was useless and the rebel cruisers they saw where not being newly built). In return for turning their luxury liners into the warships they where always meant to be, the rebels come in, help rebuild and continue the upgrading process. This is why each ship is different, not because of "artistic inspirations" as the Mon Cals claim, but because the upgrading was sporadic and piecemeal, so each one has a different mix os Mon cal grade, galactic civillian grade, and galactic warship grade equipment, and the design has to compensate for that.

[Knife]

The idea that the Mon Calamari were building starliners and then adapted their schematics to war ships is one to be considered. The basic design that is altered to become a warship makes sense when considering the docking bay placement and the weapons 'slits'.

I don't agree, since the background of which this is based has been changed. It can no longer be considered a spoiler (because the official site has mentioned it several times) that we'll see an Mon Calamari in Episode III. Thus the Mon Calamari was part of the Galactic community much earlier than stated in WEG material (that states that the first contact was made with the Empire). BTW, I doubt that converted liners can be that powerful. Of course, we have analogies in real life, especially during the two World Wars when liners were converted to troop carriers. This didn't mean that they were effective in battle though. One interesting tidbit, Titanic's older sister ship, the Olympic, is the only liner that ever have sunk a submarine (during the First World War).

I wasn't saying to slap some turrets on the QMII, rather the basic hull design of the ships. Since Mon Calamari's history will be rewritten slightly, having a more or less shipyard specializing in civilian craft, start ramping up to do military work and taking the base design of the ships and altering them for combat.

I know EU is cannon until conterdicted, and I hope it is since I've never been keen on the whole 'every ship is different and a piece of art' thingy with Mon Cal ships. I hope EpIII smacks that down and shows the start of a military build up on Mon Cal, that would give the Alliance 20 years in the future a helping hand.

[Praxis]

I believe the ORIGINAL Mon Cal ships (MC80) were converted luxury liners. However, considering the type of weaponry pirates had, I wouldn't be surprised if they were designed to be ultra-durable luxury liners, with backup shield generators and a strong hull. To make them a warship, all you need to do is add weapons...

The MC80a, MC80b, MC90, MC100, Home One, and later vessels such as the Viscount were all combat-oriented in the design.

[Mange]

The idea that the Mon Calamari were building starliners and then adapted their schematics to war ships is one to be considered. The basic design that is altered to become a warship makes sense when considering the docking bay placement and the weapons 'slits'.

I don't agree, since the background of which this is based has been changed. It can no longer be considered a spoiler (because the official site has mentioned it several times) that we'll see an Mon Calamari in Episode III. Thus the Mon Calamari was part of the Galactic community much earlier than stated in WEG material (that states that the first contact was made with the Empire). BTW, I doubt that converted liners can be that powerful. Of course, we have analogies in real life, especially during the two World Wars when liners were converted to troop carriers. This didn't mean that they were effective in battle though. One interesting tidbit, Titanic's older sister ship, the Olympic, is the only liner that ever have sunk a submarine (during the First World War).

I wasn't saying to slap some turrets on the QMII, rather the basic hull design of the ships. Since Mon Calamari's history will be rewritten slightly, having a more or less shipyard specializing in civilian craft, start ramping up to do military work and taking the base design of the ships and altering them for combat.

I know EU is cannon until conterdicted, and I hope it is since I've never been keen on the whole 'every ship is different and a piece of art' thingy with Mon Cal ships. I hope EpIII smacks that down and shows the start of a military build up on Mon Cal, that would give the Alliance 20 years in the future a helping hand.

I'm glad that we agree to a point then. I'm not particulary fond of the idea of turning luxury liners into the formidable war ships seen in ROTJ. To me, they look like they're dedicated to the task as war ships. We've seen converted cargoships (the Trade Federation's ships in TPM) that didn't quite lived up to its new role as warship. It's no spoiler (the OS mentions them several times), but we'll see them again in Episode III, and it's going to be interesting to see how they're being used.

[phongn]

I believe the ORIGINAL Mon Cal ships (MC80) were converted luxury liners. However, considering the type of weaponry pirates had, I wouldn't be surprised if they were designed to be ultra-durable luxury liners, with backup shield generators and a strong hull. To make them a warship, all you need to do is add weapons...

There's still a huge difference between a liner designed to fight off some pirates -- or even an Armed Merchant Cruiser -- and a full warship that can slug it out with dedicated naval destroyers.

[Rogue 9]

It can no longer be considered a spoiler (because the official site has mentioned it several times) that we'll see an Mon Calamari in Episode III.

Why yes. Yes it can. Damn you people, why must you drag spoilers all over the forum? Even when the OP says not to post spoilers a la the "Who kills Mace Windu?" thread?

[Mange]

It can no longer be considered a spoiler (because the official site has mentioned it several times) that we'll see an Mon Calamari in Episode III.

Why yes. Yes it can. Damn you people, why must you drag spoilers all over the forum? Even when the OP says not to post spoilers a la the "Who kills Mace Windu?" thread?

I'm sorry, but I think it's a bit difficult to avoid 'spoilers' like this one when pictures of the said being is shown in the Star Wars Insider. I'm not trying to be a moderator here, but IMHO I think that Lucasfilm's spoiler policy (used over at the OS) should be regarded. However, I inserted a spoiler warning in my original post.

[nightmare]

Phongn and I were discussing this over AIM this evening.

There's considerable evidence that the Mon Calamari cruisers are not, as WEG and the EU have asserted, converted luxury liners. The Mon Cal ships are simply too durable in combat and too well-armed to be converted liners.

The obvious comparison would be the TF "battleships", which are quite durable, though they don't have a lot of firepower. While the early Mon Cals have more and heavier turbolasers, they're not nearly comparable with ISDs. The backup shields were said to be an addition because the Mon Cals wanted their ships to last as long as possible, since they had limited production capacity; something I find well established.

I could go on more about this, but there's no reason to. In conclusion, I see no reason why the early Mon Cals can't be converted ships. Note the word early. If we want to delve even deeper down, there's the Dauntless heavy cruiser.

[Rogue 9]

In other news, the main site does not, in fact, say anything about Mon Cal cruisers in Episode 3, or if it does, I'm not seeing it and the search turns up nothing.

[Mange]

In other news, the main site does not, in fact, say anything about Mon Cal cruisers in Episode 3, or if it does, I'm not seeing it and the search turns up nothing.

No, what I said (or meant to say) was that we're going to see a Mon Calamarian (a member of the species) in Episode III. That was mentioned in several of the Set Diaries available if you're a member of Hyperspace, but also in some of the non-member sections mentions this IIRC. The Insider also showed a picture (well, a couple actually) of the Mon Calamarian. I very much doubt that we'll see their ships though.

[Connor MacLeod]

There's nothing wrong with the Mon Cals having used (or donated) converted warships to the Alliance initially. Considering they joined some time after Yavin, they would have had at least a year or two to build them dedicated warships. I doubt they had an infinite supply of cargo ships and pleasure liners to convert. After they ran out, it would be simpler to build dedicated warships.

[phongn]

There's nothing wrong with the Mon Cals having used (or donated) converted warships to the Alliance initially. Considering they joined some time after Yavin, they would have had at least a year or two to build them dedicated warships. I doubt they had an infinite supply of cargo ships and pleasure liners to convert. After they ran out, it would be simpler to build dedicated warships.

Yes, but normally civilian-spec ships simply aren't that useful for military purposes, yet we see Mon Calamarian ships going out and being useful. Hence we were wondering if they were designed to military specifications or as AMCs at the least.

[Galvatron]

I've been expecting this WEGism to be debunked for years. It'll be nice to see it finally happen.