What makes TPM suck?

[Galvatron]

I dislike most of the new-style aliens. From Dexter Jettster to Watto and most all in-between. They're overly animated and unconvincing. I much prefer the old-fashioned makeup and costumes of the cantina aliens in ANH.

It still pisses me off that Lucas removed the wolfman from ANH:SE.

[Gandalf]

I dislike most of the new-style aliens. From Dexter Jettster to Watto and most all in-between. They're overly animated and unconvincing. I much prefer the old-fashioned makeup and costumes of the cantina aliens in ANH.

It still pisses me off that Lucas removed the wolfman from ANH:SE.

He removed the Wolf guy?

Any reason?

[Stofsk]

I dislike most of the new-style aliens. From Dexter Jettster to Watto and most all in-between. They're overly animated and unconvincing. I much prefer the old-fashioned makeup and costumes of the cantina aliens in ANH.

It still pisses me off that Lucas removed the wolfman from ANH:SE.

Same, I think you lose a lot of realism by depending on CGI for the small scale. For something like fleet battles and large-scale clashes of armies (AOTC land battle, the chase through the ring belt, the TF invasion of Naboo etc) is what CGI is ideal for. The small scale? Where you have actors playing out dialogue with something that isn't there? Harder to maintain the disbelief, at least it is for me.

A guy in a suit or a puppet just convinces me more than a computer generated and animated character.

[Galvatron]

He removed the Wolf guy?

Any reason?

Maybe he was "too scary" for kids. I know he got my attention when I was little, but I didn't piss my pants or have nightmares about him either...

[Stofsk]

But it's good because it shows Anakin as a fighter pilot the FIRST time we see him. Galvatron's idea is also pretty damn good as well, except I would change Obi-wan's rank of General to something a little lower - make him a subordinate to another leader, which was something I liked in TPM (by the end Obi-wan becomes the leader, but not at the start).

Well, in my version, Obi-Wan's already a military general, but not a Jedi Master. Therein lies his room for growth.

I understand your purpose, but a General is too high for an introduction to his character. He can get promoted in the next two films either due to merits or attrition or both.

As for the planets: frankly, I don't think we need to see Tatooine or Coruscant until Episode III, if at all.

I think Coruscant is necessary. It shows us the head quarters of the Republic and Jedi, and shows it in an impressive light. But I also wanted to see Corellia and Alderaan (and we'll see the latter in the next film, so that's good).

This new trend of over-explaining things in Star Wars bugs me. Lucas started it with the special editions when, for example, he insisted that we had to see Vader's shuttle flying from Cloud City to the Executor so we "would know how he got there" as if there were some great mystery or plot-hole in the original cut of TESB that required this addition. Perhaps it wouldn't have bothered me so much if it hadn't butchered the original tightly edited escape sequence or cut out Vader's ominous and gravelly "bring my shuttle" line in the process.

Agreed. I personally think the ESB and ROTJ SEs should have been limited to VFX improvements rather than 'added scenes' which serve no function. Especially when GL didn't originally direct those films to begin with.

[Stofsk]

One of the truly cool things about ANH was how it leaped straight into the action. 10 minutes into the movie and you already know the basic plot, who the bad guy is and what's sort of going on at large. 10 minutes into TPM and I was vaguly aware that I wished they had intermissions so I could get more popcorn.

I feel the same way. The action in TPM starts slow, with brief moments of action. But there's nothing like the stormtroopers blasting through the Tantive IV's defences, with Darth Vader walking in afterwards to survey his minion's handiwork. In contrast the Jedi go through a bunch of stupid droids ("Roger roger" ugh... ) but their adversaries aren't really... prominent.

This is not to say it was a bad opening. I liked TPM's opening due to the fresh dynamic of NOT knowing who the villain was. But the tedious pacing and stupid ideas had a detrimental effect in appreciating the movie's early minutes, and it doesn't improve.

Mr Lucas should of done things the same way instead of opting for an amazingly tedious expostion typical of serials today.

GL just can't fucking write. He justified it by saying "I needed to get the exposition out of the way" - and exposition is always a bitch to handle - but he did a lousy job of it.

Incidentally I wonder what Lucas's first drafts were like and why he changed them? Someone said they were darker and showed the Naboo plight more graphically. Why the hell did he leave that out? That's what TPM needed. With a title like "The Phantom Menace" you're already being told there is a growing darkness or threat, and showing the invasion and the defenders fighting against that would qualify for the MAIN title, i.e. Star WARS. Instead we get a long and boring podrace that has no real relevance to either the main plot or even the secondary one, that of Anakin's characterisation as a great pilot. If he was older, and a member of the Naboo defence forces, it would make sense if we're introduced to him as one of the pilots trying to defend against the enemy, and through impressive displays of piloting succeeds. But no, we need to have a racing circuit..

[Galvatron]

Well, in my version, Obi-Wan's already a military general, but not a Jedi Master. Therein lies his room for growth.

I understand your purpose, but a General is too high for an introduction to his character. He can get promoted in the next two films either due to merits or attrition or both.

But, see, in my version that stuff already happened. I'd fast-forward to the point where the Clone Wars have been raging for years, which would serve as a key component in Anakin's characterization. That would leave us ample time to explore their friendship, Anakin's romance, and his fall to the dark side without it feeling like a rush-job.

Obi-Wan's growth and attainment of his lofty rank takes place prior to all that and, IMO, would be best left to the EU in the form of a prequel-to-the-prequels novel series (as would Anakin's leaving Tatooine to join the war effort).

As for the planets: frankly, I don't think we need to see Tatooine or Coruscant until Episode III, if at all.

I think Coruscant is necessary. It shows us the head quarters of the Republic and Jedi, and shows it in an impressive light. But I also wanted to see Corellia and Alderaan (and we'll see the latter in the next film, so that's good).

Well, the Jedi wouldn't necessarily have a "headquarters" in my version. And even if they did, it wouldn't necessarily be on Coruscant anyway. Yes, there would be a significant Jedi presence on Coruscant, but not in the form of the annoying Jedi Council from the real PT.

Furthermore, I wouldn't spend nearly as much time on the politics as Lucas did. The OT got away without showing it and was obviously better off as a result so I'd continue along those lines as much as possible without sacrificing the key points of the story.

I warned you I'd change things around.

[Spice Runner]

The things I really hate about TPM are:

-Jar Jars Binks Speaking twisted basic. Should have spoke in alien language. And should have been a bit more serious character instead of acting like he was on drugs or something.

-Anikins age and background. I agree with other posters that he should have been older and more on terms with Kenobi. He should have started ep1 as an already experienced pilot.

-The whole midichlorian thing bugged me. I prefer the force as described in the OT.

[Elfdart]

Anakin is pre-teen for a reason. If you're going to show the evils of prostitution, corrupt a virgin -not a whore. Anakin is supposed to be a blank slate with his whole life ahead of him. For most people, when they hit 12 or so, their personalities are more or less formed. One of the points of the prequels is to show how bit by bit, Anakin and the Republic descend into darkness.

Anakin wanted to be a Jedi, but one of the first things he hears from Qui-Gon Jinn is that the Jedi aren't there to free slaves. He finds out that the Republic won't to a thing for his mother either. What "lesson" is Anakin learning? That the Jedi and Republic aren't all he cracked them up to be and so he is tempted more and more to defy or ignore them. If Anakin had been a teenager, this whole thing would have to be dropped.

[dworkin]

Anakin is pre-teen for a reason. If you're going to show the evils of prostitution, corrupt a virgin -not a whore.

The fall of Anakin Skywalker pre-TPM was a good modern legend. He was 'The best starfighter pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. He was a good friend.' The man was supposed to be a paragon of the heroic ideal. We're talking filming Fall of Lucifer type mythology here.

And what do we get instead? - 'Yippee!'.

You can show corrupting evil as a truly gribbly thing if it corrupts the best as well. And it's a better story.

[Galvatron]

Indeed. He essentially changes from Captain America into Doctor Doom.

[Slartibartfast]

And what do we get instead? - 'Yippee!'.

Don't forget 'Oooops!'.

[Darth Wong]

It would have been good to show that the personality traits which make a man want to "leave his mark" on the universe can make him a hero or a monster, depending on circumstance. But that was apparently not the theme that Lucas wanted to go for. That would also tie into the whole darkside/lightside scheme.

Instead, he chose to go for "innocence lost", which is also a common theme in literature but it's considerably less intelligent. But while TPM (and the whole prequel arc) could have been done better, I still say it's just a raving emotional overreaction to go berserk and say that the movie is absolutely shitty, unless you're one of those people who thinks that any movie you didn't love is shitty.

[Vympel]

One can only hope that they spend enough time in ROTS to establish Anakin as a hero and a great young man before he decidedly falls to the wayside- if all the spoiler information is correct, that seems to be true (I'm never too bothered about not "spoiling" a film, as for me it's the journey, not the destination, and spoiler information only gives the barest fraction of events in the film away), at least to the point of his abilities as a warrior.

[wautd]

What if TPM was never made and AOTC was episode I... would we have missed a lot?

[Sarevok]

What if TPM was never made and AOTC was episode I... would we have missed a lot?

Well we would have missed Qui Gon who was a great Jedi character and a superb lightsaber duel.

[Gandalf]

What if TPM was never made and AOTC was episode I... would we have missed a lot?

Well we would have missed Qui Gon who was a great Jedi character and a superb lightsaber duel.

Technically yes, but he'd be none too critical to the greater story.

He could always be killed off somehow though.

[Stofsk]

What if TPM was never made and AOTC was episode I... would we have missed a lot?

Not really.

[Mange]

What if TPM was never made and AOTC was episode I... would we have missed a lot?

Not really.

In my opinion, we would. We've would have lost a great deal about the backstory of the Sith, how the Senate works, the backgrounds of major characters such as Padmé and some other good stuff. TPM is far, far from perfect, but it has some positive aspects.

[Gandalf]

What if TPM was never made and AOTC was episode I... would we have missed a lot?

Not really.

In my opinion, we would. We've would have lost a great deal about the backstory of the Sith, how the Senate works, the backgrounds of major characters such as Padmé and some other good stuff. TPM is far, far from perfect, but it has some positive aspects.

How much of the Sith backstory is there in Ep1 that couldn't be said in Ep3? The Dooku/Obi-Wan scene in Ep2 could be slightly altered to accomodate this.

What I'm trying to say is, most of what was in Ep1 is a little redundant, and could be done with a little dialogue later on in the movies.

[wautd]

What if TPM was never made and AOTC was episode I... would we have missed a lot?

Not really.

In my opinion, we would. We've would have lost a great deal about the backstory of the Sith, how the Senate works, the backgrounds of major characters such as Padmé and some other good stuff. TPM is far, far from perfect, but it has some positive aspects.

Well if you put it that way.... I'm with Stofsk

[VT-16]

Without TPM we wouldn´t have seen Palpatine before he goes into "stereotypical evil villain"-mode (just see the difference between McDiarmid´s performance in TPM and AOTC.)

We get a better introduction to the galaxy at large than in previous films, and considering this is the first chapter in the story, it´s important (to me, at least) to see all these societies and planets the Rebels will be fighting for in 30 years time. Before TPM and AOTC I really didn´t care all that much about the Rebels struggle against oppression, since there´s no large-scale oppression to be seen. (The whole "we´re good and they´re evil, so we need to fight them" may have worked when I was a kid, but now I need something more substantial )

I think that´s one of the best things about both the prequels and the SEs, that we get a better look at different cultures and societies, not just those that rule them. The SW-universe is so fascinating, I just can´t get enough of it. Apparently, this is something Georgie-boy likes to focus on too, to the deteriment of his actors. (Even if they´ve gotten more help for ROTS, it´s still too late to fix the first two. Not that I´m bothered by it)

And I´m not going to yell at a then nine-year-old for not managing a perfect lead role in a fucking STAR WARS MOVIE! Jeez, the way some people act make me wish they never have children of their own. "If you don´t do this role justice, son, I´m gonna FUCKING KILL YOU!" Save that shit for Jar-Jar instead.

Speaking of Jar-Jar, in my mind he is the biggest missed opportunity in the whole PT. I´m not kidding. First teaser comes along, I know nothing of the movie.
I see Qui-Gon, Padme and Jar-Jar in Mos Espa: "Cool, they must be JEDI!" (oh well, one out of three can´t be bad ) There I was, thinking they might finally be making a CGI bit-player that could also be a serious role, not just a spectacle like in every other movie at the time. Heh, I can dream, can´t I? Sadly, I got more out of Watto than I ever got out of Jar-Jar (and I thought Watto was a wild animal/CG spectacle in that brief glimpse in the teaser, so there´s at least one pleasant surprise after all.)

[wautd]

And I´m not going to yell at a then nine-year-old for not managing a perfect lead role in a fucking STAR WARS MOVIE! Jeez, the way some people act make me wish they never have children of their own. "If you don´t do this role justice, son, I´m gonna FUCKING KILL YOU!" Save that shit for Jar-Jar instead.

I don't know how old that kid in Sixth Sense or Unbreakable is, or that kid in Signs, but i bet they would do A LOT better than that stupid little spoiled brat in TPM

[Gandalf]

And I´m not going to yell at a then nine-year-old for not managing a perfect lead role in a fucking STAR WARS MOVIE! Jeez, the way some people act make me wish they never have children of their own. "If you don´t do this role justice, son, I´m gonna FUCKING KILL YOU!" Save that shit for Jar-Jar instead.

I don't know how old that kid in Sixth Sense or Unbreakable is, or that kid in Signs, but i bet they would do A LOT better than that stupid little spoiled brat in TPM

Haley Joel Osmont was 10-11 when he did The Sixth Sense.

Jake Lloyd was <10.

[Elfdart]

How fucking hard is it to put a kid in a dark room, talk about ghosts and get him to look scared? Enough of this bullshit about how great Osment's performance was!

My only problems with TPM were the way they explained everything that should have been obvious: "The whole planet is one big city!" Lucas has done this a lot in the prequels, where in the OT he left it to the imagination and intelligence of the kids watching. My other problem is that there wasn't enough of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Maul -and too much Jar Jar Binks.

In spite of its flaws, it's still better than ROTJ, in my opinion.