Mon Calamari ships: Liner refits?

[Solauren]

Actually, I can see the Mon Cal's having built luxary liners with military level shields and able to have military grade armor and weapons slapped on them.

Consider there hatred of pirates and smugglers.

How hard is it going to be for a pirate to attack a luxury ship with shields comparable to a main-line capital ship? Or was expecting trouble so it had Quad-laser cannon or a Turbolaser battery tossed on?

[Ender]

Actually, I can see the Mon Cal's having built luxary liners with military level shields and able to have military grade armor and weapons slapped on them.

You can't just slap on armor and weapons though. For the weapons you need the power conduits, the powr for the system, and the momentum bracings. This means a large rewiring, a change to the power core, and massive structural changes to mount the guns. The change in the power core means changing the mountings for it, making for more structure changes. The increase in mass means that your reacor has to increase thrust. This increases stress which mens more structural changes. Adding armor means you need to have the bracings to deal with them and an increase in mass, again changing structure and stress.

This is why I think their luxury liners where originally warship plans and the warship conversion was just a return to roots.

[Slartibartfast]

Errrr, to retcon it, maybe the Mon Cal took an obselete cruiser design and converted it to become cruise ships? When war came, they remilitarised the designs.
Something like that Thai carrier which became the Royal family cruise ship, before they refitted it back to operational status.

So what you're saying is basically, they were military ships that were adapted to starliner/loveboat duty and then were adapted as military ships?

[Connor MacLeod]

There's nothing wrong with the Mon Cals having used (or donated) converted warships to the Alliance initially. Considering they joined some time after Yavin, they would have had at least a year or two to build them dedicated warships. I doubt they had an infinite supply of cargo ships and pleasure liners to convert. After they ran out, it would be simpler to build dedicated warships.

Yes, but normally civilian-spec ships simply aren't that useful for military purposes, yet we see Mon Calamarian ships going out and being useful. Hence we were wondering if they were designed to military specifications or as AMCs at the least.

Maybe they follow something of a Corellian-style design philosophy.

[Praxis]

I believe the ORIGINAL Mon Cal ships (MC80) were converted luxury liners. However, considering the type of weaponry pirates had, I wouldn't be surprised if they were designed to be ultra-durable luxury liners, with backup shield generators and a strong hull. To make them a warship, all you need to do is add weapons...

There's still a huge difference between a liner designed to fight off some pirates -- or even an Armed Merchant Cruiser -- and a full warship that can slug it out with dedicated naval destroyers.

I said designed to SURVIVE a slugging.
Basicly, with enough shielding to withstand an assualt from a Star Destroyer, let alone a fleet of pirates.

All you need to add are weapons and you have a warship...

You can't just slap on armor and weapons though. For the weapons you need the power conduits, the powr for the system, and the momentum bracings. This means a large rewiring, a change to the power core, and massive structural changes to mount the guns. The change in the power core means changing the mountings for it, making for more structure changes. The increase in mass means that your reacor has to increase thrust. This increases stress which mens more structural changes. Adding armor means you need to have the bracings to deal with them and an increase in mass, again changing structure and stress.

This is why I think their luxury liners where originally warship plans and the warship conversion was just a return to roots.

*UNLESS* the Mon Cal's already had those modifications. If they were designed to be moddable, so extra shield generators, extra weapons, extra sensor dishes, etc could be added on...

[PainRack]

So what you're saying is basically, they were military ships that were adapted to starliner/loveboat duty and then were adapted as military ships?

Yes. Its a tad unusual, but it won't be the first time for transports, MCM and other support ships, and as we saw in the Thai carrier case, its extends to warships too. Another case will be a Macao corporation wishing to purchase a Russian warship to use as a floating casino. The idea was scrapped, because the warship would had cost too much to refit.

[Stark]

Okay, since only EU lameness even MAKES this ridiculous assertion, if EPIII has a Mon Cal warship, and it looks like the ships in ROTJ (and we all know it will), then its all over, and another stupid part of the EU is gone.

Where'd this idea come from anyway? WEG sees more than one type of MC cruiser, decides they're all unique? Then decides they're converted luxury liners? And have special backup shields? Does the idea of backup shields even MAKE SENSE? Lets see; Empire encounters MC. MC ships unique 'works of art'. Converted luxury liners. 'Better' shields than military vessels. All this, baseless. So why'd they make it up? Were they bored? At least it'll all go away soon. *rocks back and forth*

[Solauren]

Actually, I can see the Mon Cal's having built luxary liners with military level shields and able to have military grade armor and weapons slapped on them.

You can't just slap on armor and weapons though. For the weapons you need the power conduits, the powr for the system, and the momentum bracings. This means a large rewiring, a change to the power core, and massive structural changes to mount the guns. The change in the power core means changing the mountings for it, making for more structure changes. The increase in mass means that your reacor has to increase thrust. This increases stress which mens more structural changes. Adding armor means you need to have the bracings to deal with them and an increase in mass, again changing structure and stress.

This is why I think their luxury liners where originally warship plans and the warship conversion was just a return to roots.

I know that.

I'm also saying I can see the Mon Cals desigining and building them that way TO START, just at sea without the 'finisihing' touches of the armor and weapons.

Before you say 'bullshit', we are dealing with an alien psychology, from an aqautic world full of dangerous lifeforms, that looks like it evolved from some form of shelled creature

[phongn]

Maybe they follow something of a Corellian-style design philosophy.

There's no indication that they do and there's a gross leap from corvettes and freighters designed to accept some extra guns to full naval 'cruisers' mounting heavy cannonades.

I said designed to SURVIVE a slugging.
Basicly, with enough shielding to withstand an assualt from a Star Destroyer, let alone a fleet of pirates.

Why would they cram that much shielding on a luxury liner? If you just need to fend off pirates you could use a frigate's level of shielding, nevermind Mon Calamarian massive heavy shields.

All you need to add are weapons and you have a warship...

"All you need to add are weapons." I don't think you understand how difficult that is to do.

*UNLESS* the Mon Cal's already had those modifications. If they were designed to be moddable, so extra shield generators, extra weapons, extra sensor dishes, etc could be added on...

"Moddable?" That would certainly be curious to any Imperial inspector at the yards noticing why these ships have such massively overbuilt frames.

Where'd this idea come from anyway? WEG sees more than one type of MC cruiser, decides they're all unique? Then decides they're converted luxury liners? And have special backup shields? Does the idea of backup shields even MAKE SENSE? Lets see; Empire encounters MC. MC ships unique 'works of art'. Converted luxury liners. 'Better' shields than military vessels. All this, baseless. So why'd they make it up? Were they bored? At least it'll all go away soon. *rocks back and forth*

There really isn't anything wrong with the concept of backup shield generators, but the rest is kind of silly.

[Isolder74]

The extra sheilds make sense if they do like extra protection as part of their normal way of opperating. More shields mean better chance of surviving in battle.

The spaceship's Shields and Armor are, in a way, the shell of the ship. As such Concals might feel better manning the ships with the extra sheilding. I have no problem with the idea that they are warships finished first as luxury liners by not installing the guns but were then later finished as actual warships later. Con-cal ships appear to de very well made warships and can on a 2 one one basis take on a Imp Star I. If they were not cheaper than a Imp Star I than this would not be tactically feasable.

[Jessie Stamos]

Does the novel specifically say that they turned existing liners into battleships, or is it vague enough to interpret as having turned their liner assembly operation into a battleship assembly operation, so they just started using their assembly plants to create battleships that have the same aesthetic design as their liners did?

[Howedar]

Building "liners" that were plumbed for military equipment seems to me the most likely scenario. Rather like a tremedous He-111, I suppose.

[vakundok]

Umm, isn't it still easier to modify such huge ships than small (and presumably more compact) vehicles, like Slave I or the MF (added weapons, added drives, HIDDEN compartments, etc.)?

[Master of Ossus]

Umm, isn't it still easier to modify such huge ships than small (and presumably more compact) vehicles, like Slave I or the MF (added weapons, added drives, HIDDEN compartments, etc.)?

Not necessarily. There are different challenges associated with both of them. It depends on what, exactly, you're trying to change.

[Mange]

I have a hard time believing that the Mon Calamari ships seen in ROTJ are converted liners. As I said earlier, we've seen converted war ships in TPM (the TF's war ships) that wasn't up to the task. With such elaborate designs such as the Mon Calamarian ships, it would be very difficult. Weapon emplacements, hangars etc.
I began reading the Thrawn trilogy yesterday for the first time in ten years, and I'm currently reading Dark Force Rising. In the beginning of the book (I don't have the book in front of me right now, so I can't tell the exact page), Leia mentions that the Mon Calamari brought their converted liners to the Alliance in their time of need. Some elements of the Thrawn trilogy is outdated (because of the PT), but this can fairly easily be 'rationalized'. Perhaps the Mon Calamarian indeed brought converted liners that only were used while dedicated war ships was being build? I think that sounds plausible. On Dr. Saxton's Technical Commentaries, he shows a variety of designs for Mon Cal ships that weren't used, perhaps some of those designs could fit as converted liners? I'm especially thinking of that smaller ship (which he designates a destroyer), could this design fit?

[Rogue 9]

In other news, the main site does not, in fact, say anything about Mon Cal cruisers in Episode 3, or if it does, I'm not seeing it and the search turns up nothing.

No, what I said (or meant to say) was that we're going to see a Mon Calamarian (a member of the species) in Episode III. That was mentioned in several of the Set Diaries available if you're a member of Hyperspace, but also in some of the non-member sections mentions this IIRC. The Insider also showed a picture (well, a couple actually) of the Mon Calamarian. I very much doubt that we'll see their ships though.

Well then why did you say we were going to see their ships? *Withering glare.* Alien races from the OT showing up would only make sense; seeing a Mon Calamarian would be no surprise. Those warships, on the other hand, would be.

Before reading this, I had been consoling myself that at least the appearance of Mon Cal cruisers pre-Yavin in X-Wing would make sense now. Guess not.

[Lord Revan]

During the Battle of Kamino at least some MonCal could go unwater, while Delta-7 that followed was destroyed by the impact. Could this be reason why all Mon Calmari ship seem very heavy armor?

[Rogue 9]

During the Battle of Kamino at least some MonCal could go unwater, while Delta-7 that followed was destroyed by the impact. Could this be reason why all Mon Calmari ship seem very heavy armor?

What the blazes are you talking about?

[Lord Revan]

During the Battle of Kamino at least some MonCal could go unwater, while Delta-7 that followed was destroyed by the impact. Could this be reason why all Mon Calmari ship seem very heavy armor?

What the blazes are you talking about?

In Republic #50(No end in sight) the MonCal Commader Merai's ship Could go under water (the Delta7 that followed was bown apart on contact with the Ocean surface.)and there indication also their figthers could also go underwater.

[Mange]

In other news, the main site does not, in fact, say anything about Mon Cal cruisers in Episode 3, or if it does, I'm not seeing it and the search turns up nothing.

No, what I said (or meant to say) was that we're going to see a Mon Calamarian (a member of the species) in Episode III. That was mentioned in several of the Set Diaries available if you're a member of Hyperspace, but also in some of the non-member sections mentions this IIRC. The Insider also showed a picture (well, a couple actually) of the Mon Calamarian. I very much doubt that we'll see their ships though.

Well then why did you say we were going to see their ships? *Withering glare.* Alien races from the OT showing up would only make sense; seeing a Mon Calamarian would be no surprise. Those warships, on the other hand, would be.

Before reading this, I had been consoling myself that at least the appearance of Mon Cal cruisers pre-Yavin in X-Wing would make sense now. Guess not.

Rogue 9, that isn't what I said. Look, here's an excerpt from my post:

I don't agree, since the background of which this is based has been changed. It can no longer be considered a spoiler (because the official site has mentioned it several times) that we'll see an Mon Calamari in Episode III. Thus the Mon Calamari was part of the Galactic community much earlier than stated in WEG material (that states that the first contact was made with the Empire).

Please notice that I wrote an [a] Mon Calamarian, not a Mon Calamari ship. My post was intended to illustrate that WEG's backstory about the Mon Calamarian is incorrect now that we know for a fact that we'll see a Mon Calamarian in Episode III (the first contact wasn't made with the Empire). We've also seen the Mon Calamarian home world in the animated Clone Wars series. The Insider has had quite a few pictures (and the mentioning of it in the other sources I mentioned) of the Mon Calamarian that will appear in Revenge of the Sith, so it can't be said to constitute a spoiler.

[Rogue 9]

Well crap. It was a thread on Mon Cal ships and... Yeah, never mind.

[Darwin]

I haven't heard yet the possibility that the ships could have been 'built as passenger liners' but actually all the while been warships in disguise. (Think the Junkers JU-52, which was built in the restrictive climate pre-WW-II as a 'passenger airplane' but was really intended to be a military transport, then up-scale)

though 'officially' passenger liners, the Mon Cal ships could certainly be purpose built warships, especially if, and I believe this is likely, the Emire placed restrictions on building warships above a certain size.

[Darwin]

Building "liners" that were plumbed for military equipment seems to me the most likely scenario. Rather like a tremedous He-111, I suppose.

I, I see Howedar already brought up the point. my bad. =)

I think it can reconcile most of the 'issues' here though.

[Jade Falcon]

You've also had military vessels built to a civilian spec sometimes, I believe HMS Ocean is.

Another example is Merchant ships converted to carriers in WWII.

[Rogue 9]

You've also had military vessels built to a civilian spec sometimes, I believe HMS Ocean is.

Another example is Merchant ships converted to carriers in WWII.

Yeah, well carriers aren't supposed to come under fire from enemy warships. A Mon Cal cruiser is a mainline battleship. Civilian spec doesn't work for that kind of duty.