Land Power

[RedImperator]

Interesting how DS9 had direct mention of Planetary Defenses. So planetary shields aren't out of the question afterall.

Planetary defenses could be anything. Considering we've never seen or heard about planetary shields anywhere, I would think they're still out of the question until we see some evidence they're even capable of building and powering them.

Actualy we have heard of planetary shields in TOS era as well as VGR. Thing is, what planetary defenses could Red Squad shut down from the ground? Ground bassed power systems wouldn't affect battle stations and OWPs. It would affect ground bassed weapon systems and shields. Thats it.

So far as we know from the canon, Earth doesn't have battle stations and OWPs. Certainly they weren't in operation either time the Borg reached orbit.

[Gil Hamilton]

Actualy we have heard of planetary shields in TOS era as well as VGR. Thing is, what planetary defenses could Red Squad shut down from the ground? Ground bassed power systems wouldn't affect battle stations and OWPs. It would affect ground bassed weapon systems and shields. Thats it.

Ground based systems that are part of the planetary defense, obvious. That could mean anti-air guns that repulse landing craft, ground based sensors, military networks and databases, command and control, the transportation network for personnel. There are lots of things beyond shields. Earth having a planetary shield requires extraordinary evidence, because frankly, the Federation doesn't possess anything like it in TNG on.

[Gil Hamilton]

So far as we know from the canon, Earth doesn't have battle stations and OWPs. Certainly they weren't in operation either time the Borg reached orbit.

This is true and "Homefront" demonstrated that. That was the point of the power outage in the first place. With the power grid down, everyone was saying that Earth was defenseless against attack from an invading fleet, which is what Leyton wanted, so it would scare everyone enough for him to stage his little coup. They wouldn't be defenseless if they had an orbital defense network in place.

The Federation seems to defend it's planets with fleets rather than defense networks. Betazed was taken over by the Dominion because the fleet defending it was out on manuevers and the Dominion got a fleet in there while they were helpless. That's two major worlds without an orbital defense network. If Earth doesn't have one and Betazed doesn't have one, chances are orbital defense stations and platforms are very uncommon indeed.

[Alyeska]

Actualy the Breen attack on Earth proves that Earth has some sort of defense outside of ships. The Breen attack force was destroyed in less the five minutes, before the fleet at Utopia Planitia could respond.

[Praxis]

But the Breen DID nuke Starfleet headquarters...meaning there is either no planetary shields, or it is so utterly pathetic that a small fleet can blow through it in under five minutes.

[Gil Hamilton]

Actualy the Breen attack on Earth proves that Earth has some sort of defense outside of ships. The Breen attack force was destroyed in less the five minutes, before the fleet at Utopia Planitia could respond.

Then it must of been ground based forces, like fighters or more likely, missiles. Earth wouldn't have been defenseless due to the events of "Homefront" if they had orbiting defensive platforms.

[Alyeska]

Does that mean people are actualy advocating Trek with weapons capable of moving, well, FAST?

[Gil Hamilton]

Does that mean people are actualy advocating Trek with weapons capable of moving, well, FAST?

Some of them, maybe, but the ones on their ships certainly are painfully slow for space weapons. However, that's irrelevant to the issue. The point is, Earth doesn't have orbital defenses or platforms, it's all ground based.

[Alyeska]

Does that mean people are actualy advocating Trek with weapons capable of moving, well, FAST?

Some of them, maybe, but the ones on their ships certainly are painfully slow for space weapons. However, that's irrelevant to the issue. The point is, Earth doesn't have orbital defenses or platforms, it's all ground based.

Do we know that for a fact? All we know is that in FC the Cube was approaching Earth. Not that it was in range. At worst we know as of TNG the Cube had free reign over Earth.

However its worth noting that Spacedock 1 is likely still in orbit (way to useful to get rid of really) and I would find it odd if it didn't have defensive capabilities.

We know Starfleet is quite capable of fielding battlestations and defense platforms. Earth is a logical location.

[Darth Wong]

Do we know that for a fact? All we know is that in FC the Cube was approaching Earth. Not that it was in range. At worst we know as of TNG the Cube had free reign over Earth.

Earth looked pretty big for the cube to be out of range, unless I've been correct about Trek weapons ranges all along And where were the swarms of long-range torpedoes coming from Earth's defenses?

However its worth noting that Spacedock 1 is likely still in orbit (way to useful to get rid of really) and I would find it odd if it didn't have defensive capabilities.

True, but it could have been on the far side of the planet. It's not as if it can scoot around to face any threat. And it must be noted that there are no actual canon examples of SpaceDock deploying any weapons. Twice we have seen starships stolen from SpaceDock, and in both cases, SpaceDock was impotent to do anything about it. It doesn't even appear to possess tractor beams.

We know Starfleet is quite capable of fielding battlestations and defense platforms. Earth is a logical location.

That is speculation, not evidence. There are countless other possible interpretations of the situation. Why do you assume that the capital must be heavily fortified? Why should it be, when none of their traditional enemies can reach it without far more lead time and far more difficulty than the Borg?

In fact, it is quite possible that Earth has an "ivory tower" culture and that weapons on the planet would be considered unacceptable.

[Gil Hamilton]

Do we know that for a fact? All we know is that in FC the Cube was approaching Earth. Not that it was in range. At worst we know as of TNG the Cube had free reign over Earth.

However its worth noting that Spacedock 1 is likely still in orbit (way to useful to get rid of really) and I would find it odd if it didn't have defensive capabilities.

We know Starfleet is quite capable of fielding battlestations and defense platforms. Earth is a logical location.

"Homefront" makes it clear that Earth doesn't. As Sisko said, had the Dominion attacked them while Earth's powergrid was down, they would have had absolutely no defense to stop them (which was Leyton's plan, he wanted to scare them shitless). If they really did have orbital defenses, than Leyton's plan and Sisko's discussion would have been really silly, since Earth wouldn't, in fact, have been defenseless.

In First Contact, the Borg Cube definitely was in orbit around Earth, given how big the Earth was in our field of vision. It may have still been approaching since it would have wanted a LEO when it assaults the planet itself, but it was well within both lunar and geosynchronous orbits. If the Earth had defense platforms, you'd think that would be when they'd have attacked the Cube, since attacking the Cube when it gets in a LEO could get ugly since 500 or so km above the surface of the planet is not the place where you want to start flinging dozens of nuclear scale bombs around.

This all isn't uncommon. After all, it's not like Betazed had orbital defenses, when the Dominion snuck in and conquered it. Hell, the Romulans were planning to take over Vulcan with three Vulcan transports and 2000 troops. It doesn't look like Earth is much different.

[Sarevok]

Just a quick question. How good are the federations pure visual and infra red sensor capabilities?

Well in one Voyeger episode they produced real time image of a planet from interstellar distance. My guess is they used subspace sensors to scan the target and produce a visual image.

[Chris OFarrell]

For the record.

There is examples of planatery shields in Star Trek, in the UFP. More then a few in TOS. TNG has less, but there are at least examples of limited canopy shields over surface targets.

You have in Gambit a Federation Research outpost, which is hardly a high level target, no weapons at all, but it projected a shield large enough to cover the outpost and an extensive set of ruins around it as well as various storehouses. And this is just a science outpost.

You have in "We'll always have Paris" some Federation science nut who DID have a planatery shield up and running, which shows its possible in the TNG era.

Earth does not appear to have one, why I'm not sure. MY guess is that it has to do with the whole mindset of Earth at this stage of the Federation, simply too up itself as a "paradise". When Layton proposed mobolising Starfleet and putting troops on the ground, even THAT was unthinkable. The Federation President was astonished that Starfleet had even stockpiled personal forcefields, grenades, rifles e.t.c. for just such a situation.

SISKO
Which is why it's imperative that
you declare a State of Emergency.

JARESH-INYO
What good will that do when we
have no way to defend ourselves?

LEYTON
(confident)
Mister President, we can use the
Lakota's transporters and
communications system to mobilize
every Starfleet officer on Earth
in less than twelve hours.

This is a surprise to the President, who had no idea
Starfleet had such capabilities.

LEYTON
We've been preparing for something
like this for a long time. We
have stockpiles of phaser rifles,
personal forcefields, photon
grenades, enough to equip an
entire army. I can start placing
troops in the streets immediately.

JARESH-INYO
What you're asking me to do is
declare martial law.

MY guess is that core areas like the Federation Council, Starfleet Command, the Accademy e.t.c. all have a canopy shield, which would explain the minimal damage taken to San Fransico from the Breen, probably just leakthrough. However I don't think there are any orbital defences in place around Earth, that would be too militeristic and the events in 'Homefront/Paradise lost' would also appear to argue against it.

Though I am a little pissed in that episode that they were going on and on and on about the Lakota being the only reason they were still able to move around. Spacedock appears to be in geosynch above the US Western Seaboard, it should have been the center of recovering from the whole disaster.

Though you can see by 'Endgame' that Earth and Sol appear to have a heavy presence of major line starships there at all time, probably a system defence force against any surprise attack like that happening. It might have been a rude shock for Shinzon if he had tried to attack Earth and run smack into that fleet...

[Prozac the Robert]

Hmm, don't think I've ever heard of personal forcefields elsewhere. Do we ever see what one can do?

[Chris OFarrell]

Hmm, don't think I've ever heard of personal forcefields elsewhere. Do we ever see what one can do?

*shrug*

Worf jurry rigged one with a Combadge, I would guess the real military models are quite a bit more powerful, similar to Borg shielding but without the stamina or addaptive abilities. But this is pure speculation on my party.

[Chris OFarrell]

And for the record, we have the quotes from TMP novel.

Uhura's sharp eyes caught movement on the viewer. "Captain, a large object has been released by the Intruder."

Kirk whirled on the viewer, snapping, "High magnification!"

Sulu magnified the relay signal until the object appeared close - and frighteningly familiar. It was an enormous mass of the green plasma-energy which had destroyed the Klingons and Epsilon Nine - and very nearly the Enterprise, too.

Sulu turned from his board. "They've released another one. No, two more..."

They watched as the viewscreen showed a third, then fourth, mass of writhing energy being released. They could all see that each of those green masses was hundreds of times the size of the bolts that had come at them.

Kirk whirled to the probe. "What are these for?"

"It will destroy the planet's infestation," said the probe.

"Oh, my God," said McCoy. Every face on the bridge was expressing something similar. No one had forgotten that the probe had called the Enterprise crew a carbon-unit infestation.

On the viewer, the ugly green plasma-energy shapes were now speeding off in different directions from the Intruder vessel image. Uhura had recieved a signal, and was turning to Kirk.

"Sir, Lunar Four computes device trajectories proceeding toward equidistant positions orbiting the planet."

Spock had been making quick computations, and was turning to Kirk, too. "Captain, final positioning will occurr in twenty-nine minutes. The detonation will blanket the entire planet."

Kirk vaulted from his command chair and strode to the rail to confront the Ilia-probe.

"Why?"

Decker awaited the probe's answer, then realized that it had turned and was looking at him. Why? Kirk had noticed it, too. But there was no Ilia there, not the slightest hint of warmth, nor any softening of the mechnical voice tone.

"Tell it to answer me," said Kirk.

"Answer him," said Decker. He was surprised to see the probe obediantly turning back to Kirk.

"The carbon-unit infestation is to be removed from the Creator's planet."

"Why?!" demanded Kirk. The probe looked at Decker.

"Tell him why."

"The Creator has not responded."

"The carbon-units are not responsible for that," said Kirk.

"You infest Enterprise. You interfere with the Creator in the same manner."

"Captain..." It was Chekov at the weapons-station, his face taut and white. "Captain... all Earth defenses have just gone inoperative!"

Checkov's words seemed to echo around the bridge and Kirk felt a stab of cold in his stomach.

"Confirm," said Uhura, her voice shaking. "I'm monitoring reports of forcefield power loss, computers shutting themselves down..."

Until now, there had been at least the hope that the sheer weight of Earth and Lunar firepower and powerful forcefield protection might give Nogura bargaining power or at least some delay in which a better understanding could be worked out.

Granted this reflects the planets defences 70 years back and its not impossible post Khitomer that it may have been downgraded some. But by the same token, its reflective of surface bassed defences on Earth and Luna comprising the main defence line of Earth, no orbital defensive support at all, excepting possible Starships.

[Darth Wong]

A) The fact that some planetary shields have existed at some point does not say anything about how long they can actually stand up to starship assault, nor does it prove that Earth has one. In fact, the only times shields have been mentioned onscreen, it was pretty clear that a single starship could blow through it.

B) The fact that Earth had ground-based weaponry at some point in the past does not mean they have anything in the TNG era. As I said before, where were the swarms of photon torpedo fire and long-range phaser fire coming for the Borg cube in STFC? The thing was a huge target moving in a straight line; even if it was well outside their normal effective range, they should have been able to hit it with phasers, never mind torpedoes.

[Chris OFarrell]

A) The fact that some planetary shields have existed at some point does not say anything about how long they can actually stand up to starship assault, nor does it prove that Earth has one.

The quote from TMP novel (which IIRC after many discussions back here a while ago was accepted as canon) shows Earth did have such a shield. Granted it doesn't say anything for how long it can withstand an attack, but its reasonably safe to say it would be a supperior defence to at least a single Starship, almost certianly more. Though the "more" is hard to define.

In fact, the only times shields have been mentioned onscreen, it was pretty clear that a single starship could blow through it.

Hardly a fair contrast. An unarmed science outpost is hardly a battlestation. If it can't support heavy weapons its hardly goign to be able to support a high capacity shield. Even so, it was said to be able to hold off the raider ship for fifteen minuites, which isn't a small amount of time for a science outpost.

B) The fact that Earth had ground-based weaponry at some point in the past does not mean they have anything in the TNG era.

We know the UFP had such weapons on Earth in the past. Circemstantional evidence points to them having them on Earth still in the DS9 era, specificaly "Homefront" and Odo's comments about surface defences as well as the Breen fleet being blasted away, despite their energy dampening weapons technology which would render any Starship helpless and ineffective in fighting them off.

As I said before, where were the swarms of photon torpedo fire and long-range phaser fire coming for the Borg cube in STFC? The thing was a huge target moving in a straight line; even if it was well outside their normal effective range, they should have been able to hit it with phasers, never mind torpedoes.

Given that the Enterprise was in close pursuit at the time and technicaly in charge (and she was within easy weapons range as well), best guess is that they were holding fire as a last ditch in case Picard was unable to stop it. The Sphere went down rather easily, a single salvo of Quantums blew it away. If a CUBE was still heading for the planet, then they may well give it all they have, but Picard 'had the ball'.

[Praxis]

And for the record, we have the quotes from TMP novel.

Uhura's sharp eyes caught movement on the viewer. "Captain, a large object has been released by the Intruder."

Kirk whirled on the viewer, snapping, "High magnification!"

Sulu magnified the relay signal until the object appeared close - and frighteningly familiar. It was an enormous mass of the green plasma-energy which had destroyed the Klingons and Epsilon Nine - and very nearly the Enterprise, too.

Sulu turned from his board. "They've released another one. No, two more..."

They watched as the viewscreen showed a third, then fourth, mass of writhing energy being released. They could all see that each of those green masses was hundreds of times the size of the bolts that had come at them.

Kirk whirled to the probe. "What are these for?"

"It will destroy the planet's infestation," said the probe.

"Oh, my God," said McCoy. Every face on the bridge was expressing something similar. No one had forgotten that the probe had called the Enterprise crew a carbon-unit infestation.

On the viewer, the ugly green plasma-energy shapes were now speeding off in different directions from the Intruder vessel image. Uhura had recieved a signal, and was turning to Kirk.

"Sir, Lunar Four computes device trajectories proceeding toward equidistant positions orbiting the planet."

Spock had been making quick computations, and was turning to Kirk, too. "Captain, final positioning will occurr in twenty-nine minutes. The detonation will blanket the entire planet."

Kirk vaulted from his command chair and strode to the rail to confront the Ilia-probe.

"Why?"

Decker awaited the probe's answer, then realized that it had turned and was looking at him. Why? Kirk had noticed it, too. But there was no Ilia there, not the slightest hint of warmth, nor any softening of the mechnical voice tone.

"Tell it to answer me," said Kirk.

"Answer him," said Decker. He was surprised to see the probe obediantly turning back to Kirk.

"The carbon-unit infestation is to be removed from the Creator's planet."

"Why?!" demanded Kirk. The probe looked at Decker.

"Tell him why."

"The Creator has not responded."

"The carbon-units are not responsible for that," said Kirk.

"You infest Enterprise. You interfere with the Creator in the same manner."

"Captain..." It was Chekov at the weapons-station, his face taut and white. "Captain... all Earth defenses have just gone inoperative!"

Checkov's words seemed to echo around the bridge and Kirk felt a stab of cold in his stomach.

"Confirm," said Uhura, her voice shaking. "I'm monitoring reports of forcefield power loss, computers shutting themselves down..."

Until now, there had been at least the hope that the sheer weight of Earth and Lunar firepower and powerful forcefield protection might give Nogura bargaining power or at least some delay in which a better understanding could be worked out.

Granted this reflects the planets defences 70 years back and its not impossible post Khitomer that it may have been downgraded some. But by the same token, its reflective of surface bassed defences on Earth and Luna comprising the main defence line of Earth, no orbital defensive support at all, excepting possible Starships.

It NEVER says the "powerful forcefield protection" covered the entire planet. They could have easily but forcefields and shield generators around all major cities.

Oh, and was the TMP novel an OFFICIAL novelization, or just by some random writer that sent it to Paramount? Quite a few of the Star Trek books are non-canon. In fact, almost all of them.

[Gil Hamilton]

Praxis hits it.

Until now, there had been at least the hope that the sheer weight of Earth and Lunar firepower and powerful forcefield protection might give Nogura bargaining power or at least some delay in which a better understanding could be worked out.

Where does it say here that there is a planet wide shield? Those powerful forcefields could be over their defense installations protecting their firepower, or over areas of cities. That's a very vague hat you are pulling a planetary shield out of.

[Gil Hamilton]

As I said before, where were the swarms of photon torpedo fire and long-range phaser fire coming for the Borg cube in STFC? The thing was a huge target moving in a straight line; even if it was well outside their normal effective range, they should have been able to hit it with phasers, never mind torpedoes.

Given that the Enterprise was in close pursuit at the time and technicaly in charge (and she was within easy weapons range as well), best guess is that they were holding fire as a last ditch in case Picard was unable to stop it. The Sphere went down rather easily, a single salvo of Quantums blew it away. If a CUBE was still heading for the planet, then they may well give it all they have, but Picard 'had the ball'.[/quote]
He's not talking about the Borg sphere that the cube launched, he was talking about the Borg Cube itself, that was in the process of shooting it's way through the fleet attempting to defend the planet. He's asking where all the firepower was during that battle. It was now or never at that point, since the Borg Cube was already well on it's way to insertion into Earth orbit. Why the hell would they check their fire at that point?

[Lord Poe]

He's not talking about the Borg sphere that the cube launched, he was talking about the Borg Cube itself, that was in the process of shooting it's way through the fleet attempting to defend the planet. He's asking where all the firepower was during that battle. It was now or never at that point, since the Borg Cube was already well on it's way to insertion into Earth orbit. Why the hell would they check their fire at that point?

Also, there was no firepower coming from Earth in "Best OfBoth Worlds" either, when the Borg cube was parked right over Earth.

No firepower coming from Earth in VGR's "Endgame" either.

[Isolder74]

So it seems that the TNG onward the Federation has completely disarmed their capitol. Why they still have no defenses after repeated attacks to the planet is beyond me. How many invasions are going to happen before Star Fleet command gets it?

[Alyeska]

TNG is irrelevent. Explain how the Breen were destroyed when all Starfleet ships were in orbit around Mars at the time. There exists some sort of defensive firepower on or around Earth by this time.

[Gil Hamilton]

TNG is irrelevent. Explain how the Breen were destroyed when all Starfleet ships were in orbit around Mars at the time. There exists some sort of defensive firepower on or around Earth by this time.

Surface based defense systems, which very likely used missiles. That's easy.