How Times Change.......

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

How Times Change.......

Post by MKSheppard »

Image

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national ... -7056r.htm

The Veteran of Foreign Wars made it clear yesterday that it is none too pleased with Sen. John Kerry's 1970s role in the defunct Vietnam Veterans Against the War, which, at the time, called the VFW a "a paramilitary, pro-war organization" out of touch with young veterans.

Mr. Kerry was VVAW's chief spokesman during the early 1970s and is slated to make a campaign pitch today in Cincinnati to the annual convention of the VFW.

But in 1971, Mr. Kerry's anti-war group denounced the VFW as a war-mongering lobby responsible for getting the United States into the Vietnam War and harbored hopes of perhaps replacing the VFW as a veterans' group.

"All our national officers are Vietnam veterans. I am too, and where ... is the Vietnam Veterans Against the War now?" said VFW spokesman Jerry Newberry.

Noting that VFW members filled the 6,000-seat convention hall in Cincinnati to capacity, Mr. Newberry said, "When I asked all those who had served in Vietnam to stand up, almost all of them did. That speaks for itself."

Kerry spokesman Chad Clanton said yesterday that his boss "has always stood up for what he believes. He has a record of fighting for veterans benefits, finding out the truth about POWs and MIAs in Vietnam and getting funding for victims of Agent Orange. He'll stand up for veterans in the White House just like he has in the U.S. Senate."

Mr. Kerry, whose presidential campaign has emphasized his service as a Navy lieutenant in Vietnam, joined VVAW in 1970, after returning from Vietnam and denounced the VFW in a 1971 book.

"We will not quickly join those who march on Veterans Day waving small flags, calling to memory those thousands who died for the 'greater glory of the United States.' ... We will not readily join the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars," he wrote then.

A 1971 VVAW fund-raising letter, titled "Men of Peace" and signed "yours in peace," accused the VFW and the American Legion of promoting an agenda of "world domination."

A copy of the letter, obtained by The Washington Times, is part of an extensive collection of VVAW's papers in the collection of the State Historical Society of Wisconsin in Madison. Records do not indicate whether the letter was sent.

The American Legion and the VFW "were partly responsible for the military attitudes in this country though their unlimited lobbying power — somewhere in the neighborhood of $12 million," the VVAW letter said. "That kind of influence must be confronted and dealt with."

VVAW "could support counteractions that will allow men to exist without the threat of nuclear annihilation or constant military ones," said the fund-raising letter.

The letter suggests that Mr. Kerry's group might replace both the VFW and the American Legion, which it said "have not been able, at the national level in the past five years, to recruit successfully among the younger veterans. These younger veterans are obviously not content with a paramilitary, pro-war organization representing them. We are their answer."

The VVAW letter suggests to potential donors that the dissident group could in time diversify and offer benefits similar what the VFW and the American Legion were offering, "but with a view toward total world peace rather than world domination."

In response to that claim, Mr. Newberry, the VFW spokesman, said yesterday: "We have 1.8 million members, this is our 105th annual convention and, again, where ... are the Vietnam Veterans Against the War? And quote me on that."

Image
War veterans Jere Hill, middle, from Warham, Mass., and Robert Gibson, right, from Lexington, Ky., stand with their backs turned during Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's speech at the 105th Veterans of Foreign Wars National Convention in Cincinnati on Wednesday, Aug. 18, 2004.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
Stormbringer
King of Democracy
Posts: 22678
Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm

Post by Stormbringer »

It still galls me that Kerry's now gone touting his Vietnam record after being a part of shit like that.
Image
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Kerry is simply an inept politician. A skilled politician would have simply apologized for behaving irrationally after coming home from the most stressful and traumatic event in his life. But Kerry won't apologize; instead, he tries to spin-doctor what happened.

No doubt he learned that trick from the Bush Administration, whose motto is "never admit error when you can spin-doctor the holy living fuck out of it". But there are times that an apology makes sense, particularly for events so long ago. After all, that's how Bush deflates the criticism of his horrendous personal conduct during his drugs 'n alcohol days; he simply says that he's not like that any more and he admits it was wrong.

Even if he apologized, he would still have the upper hand on Bush in the Vietnam issue because he went, and he knows what war is like firsthand.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Stormbringer
King of Democracy
Posts: 22678
Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm

Post by Stormbringer »

Darth Wong wrote:Even if he apologized, he would still have the upper hand on Bush in the Vietnam issue because he went, and he knows what war is like firsthand.

Indeed, an honest apology would have gone a long way and he would have come off as a basically decent guy. Instead he's just acting like an amoral, cynical bastard that has no problem exploiting his service (and those that served with him) however he needs to to get what he wants. Something only made worse by the fact that his campaign is built around that

For me anyway, the image this creates really tarnishes the good in his service. He really does appear to be that sort of creep.
Image
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

So Kerry obviously has his faults but you still have to ask yourself one question; Who would you rather have win out of these two likely canidates?

I personally don't want to see Bush sit in another term....
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Post by Knife »

Darth Wong wrote:Kerry is simply an inept politician. A skilled politician would have simply apologized for behaving irrationally after coming home from the most stressful and traumatic event in his life. But Kerry won't apologize; instead, he tries to spin-doctor what happened.

No doubt he learned that trick from the Bush Administration, whose motto is "never admit error when you can spin-doctor the holy living fuck out of it". But there are times that an apology makes sense, particularly for events so long ago. After all, that's how Bush deflates the criticism of his horrendous personal conduct during his drugs 'n alcohol days; he simply says that he's not like that any more and he admits it was wrong.

Even if he apologized, he would still have the upper hand on Bush in the Vietnam issue because he went, and he knows what war is like firsthand.
Real-politic demands that I agree with you, though it still pisses me off. I don't like Bush smooching up to the nationalistic fevor of American, and I don't like Kerry and his BS either.

Somebody smack me around here, cuz this is a semi rant; but even though both don't deserve the Presidnecy, Bush runs on his so called '9/11' actions while Kerry points to his Vietnaum era exploits. While both are obviously pandering, Bush atleast is of current events. (Right or wrong) Bush is of here and now, while Kerry sings of his exploits of 30 years ago.






*Disclaimer* Not that Bush is my 'number one guy'. God, why can't a honest to god conservative run against this guy.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
Stormbringer
King of Democracy
Posts: 22678
Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm

Post by Stormbringer »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:So Kerry obviously has his faults but you still have to ask yourself one question; Who would you rather have win out of these two likely canidates?
I'm planning on voting for a third party in the presidential race.

As to which I'd rather have if I had to pick, I have to say I'm not sure. Kerry hasn't offered a lot and frankly his promises regarding the economy make me think he'll turn out worse than Bush on that. Given that I have to say at this point I'd tend to favor Bush. But the rest of his record scares me and while Kerry doesn't offer anything, he's not Bush (about the only reason to vote for him come to think of it).
Kamakazie Sith wrote:I personally don't want to see Bush sit in another term....
I don't either but then again I don't want to replace him with Kerry either.
Image
User avatar
Stormbringer
King of Democracy
Posts: 22678
Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm

Post by Stormbringer »

Knife wrote:*Disclaimer* Not that Bush is my 'number one guy'. God, why can't a honest to god conservative run against this guy.
Because the Republican Party won't support one that did. Look at what happened to John McCain when he tried. Damn I wish we had President McCain instead of Bush.
Image
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10691
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Post by Elfdart »

When Kerry was on Meet The Press with Tim Russert, he did apologize for the kind of overblown language he used during the antiwar movement.

Now that we're getting out the ashes and sack cloth, the VFW and American Legion owe some apologies, too. My father quit the VFW in 1972 in spite of the fact that the county we lived in only allowed private clubs (like VFW) to serve alcohol. He was no hippy or protestor, but was turned off by loudmouths talking openly about how that kike, that nigger, or that commie (like the fiendish Julian Bond) ought to be shot. He was also turned off by REMFs who never heard a shot showing off their Good Conduct medals and trying to pass themselves off as the second coming of Audie Murphy. The final straw was during a Monday Night Football game when our heroes in their goofy hats kept honking and hissing about how that nigger-lovin' communist Jew, Howard Cosell should be shot.

VFW and American Legion were a thousand times more reckless in throwing around the charge of "treason" than even Ann "thrax" Coulter. And when it came to smearing veterans, nobody could touch these groups. In the excellent book The Spitting Image, Jerry Lembcke (himself a veteran) not only debunks the urban myth that anti-war demonstrators had spat upon returning veterans, but showed that the majority of mistreatment of Vietnam Veterans came from other veterans like VFW.

pp 57-58: describing a march on anti-war veterans from Morristown, NJ to Valley Forge, PA in 1970:
The march was videotaped, thus giving us a record of the techniques used by VVAW as well as public response to its efforts.

Most interestingly, the video tape recorded the menacing hostility of older, pro-war, veterans of previous wars toward the Vietnam veterans. Entering Valley Forge on the fourth day of the march, the Vietnam vets are "greeted" by a group of VFW members. We hear a voice from the background saying "Why don't you go to Hanoi? They need boys like you." On camera, another VFW member says, "You see, I don't blame those fellows for not being proud, because we won our war, they didn't; and from the looks of them, they couldn't." We hear other off-camera comments about the appearance of the Vietnam veterans and, as a maimed veteran on two crutches moves slowly by a voice wonders if the wounded "have been shot with marijuana or shot in battle."
Let's see if the VFW wankers have half the balls Kerry has shown and apologize for their out-of-line comments. I won't hold my breath. Something tells me that for those two assholes in Shep's photo, this wasn't the first time a real veteran only saw their backs.
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Post by Knife »

Elfdart wrote:snippy a shit load
True and I agree, though since I was a member of the American Legion and technically of VFW (though not actively, though I'm qualified) I view it the same as organised labor. Unions and other organizations take political views that constantly go against the views of its members.

I agree with the original intents of such organizations, but I disagree with the political stances they make so that they have 'bed fellows'.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Post by Knife »

Stormbringer wrote:
Knife wrote:*Disclaimer* Not that Bush is my 'number one guy'. God, why can't a honest to god conservative run against this guy.
Because the Republican Party won't support one that did. Look at what happened to John McCain when he tried. Damn I wish we had President McCain instead of Bush.
True, but I look forward to the day that they break the traditons and (oh god, I'm going to use the damn phrase) 'think out side of the box'.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10691
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Post by Elfdart »

Darth Wong wrote:Kerry is simply an inept politician. A skilled politician would have simply apologized for behaving irrationally after coming home from the most stressful and traumatic event in his life. But Kerry won't apologize; instead, he tries to spin-doctor what happened.

No doubt he learned that trick from the Bush Administration, whose motto is "never admit error when you can spin-doctor the holy living fuck out of it". But there are times that an apology makes sense, particularly for events so long ago. After all, that's how Bush deflates the criticism of his horrendous personal conduct during his drugs 'n alcohol days; he simply says that he's not like that any more and he admits it was wrong.

Even if he apologized, he would still have the upper hand on Bush in the Vietnam issue because he went, and he knows what war is like firsthand.
I'm surprised you're so naive, Wong. First, if Kerry said it was from the stress and a traumatic time in his life, the Swiftboat Scumbags and their media camp followers would start with the same "He must be unstable after the war and can't be trusted as President." bullshit they pulled on John McCain.

No, Bush lied his ass off and denied everything until the arrest record for his DUI was made public. The media, being miserable whores when it came to Bush in 2000, didn't harp on the issue because it wasn't as important as say, getting blown by a fat chick or whether Gore was the basis of one of the characters in Love Story (for the record, he was). Gore, Kerry and the Democrats to this day won't bring up Bush's DUI when we all know goddamn well if Kerry had been busted for the same charge, Rush Lardass would be belching about it every hour on the hour. And as I wrote before, if Theresa Kerry or Tipper Gore or Hillary Clinton had run a stop sign and killed a teenager as Laura Bush did, the Right would be all over them like Old Navy on white trash.

Your last point is extremely naive. The Republican and their media whores are like a pack of Cape Hunting Dogs. If they detect even the slightest injury, they will keep attacking and attacking. The way to fend them off is to (as zebras do) attack them just as ferociously. Tom Harkin calling out Dick Cheney as a coward was a good start. They need to keep it up, preferably with a hefty dose of ridicule, since Bush and Cheney are both very thin-skinned and like all pussies, dish it out but can't take it.
User avatar
Stormbringer
King of Democracy
Posts: 22678
Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm

Post by Stormbringer »

Knife wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Knife wrote:*Disclaimer* Not that Bush is my 'number one guy'. God, why can't a honest to god conservative run against this guy.
Because the Republican Party won't support one that did. Look at what happened to John McCain when he tried. Damn I wish we had President McCain instead of Bush.
True, but I look forward to the day that they break the traditons and (oh god, I'm going to use the damn phrase) 'think out side of the box'.
I consider it more of living up to their long claimed ideals of classic liberalism. Basically a return to financial responsibility and minimal government. Of course the chances of either side embracing that are slim to nil.
Image
Post Reply