Underfunding American Schools...Why Suddenly No Money?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-08-19 02:48pm

I can provide an excllent example of spending in my own district

My tax money DID payed for a new Football(American) field with covered seating

My tax money DID NOT pay to build another wing of classrooms or even get a few doublewide for teaching rather than the eight singlewides they have in the parking lot for teaching English classes

A note, Yes we did already have a Football field, We also had a seperate Soccer field as well(Which apprently next year they are converting to more parking space for singlewide classrooms while the old football field becomes the new soccer field)

My school also inculdes a NEW gym(Started 99' Finished 2001) which is big enough for two Regulation NBA corts side by side an an OLD Gym(Built 94 not sure when started)

According to my Chief who has kids going there, doubling up kids on textbooks is regular pratice because they don't have enough for all classes

The side benfit is they don't have enough books to let kids take them home meaning instead of the twenty to fourty pounds we were lugging around as kids these probably have maybe five pound bags(Wheels and all)

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-08-19 02:59pm

cutting athletics is no different than cutting music IMO. Whether you agree or not , they provide avenues of development and expression for students. The comments dismissing athletics as expendable are disturbing and reek of elitism and are no different than uber-jocks dismissing music and the arts.

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2004-08-19 03:02pm

I've always wondered just how much money schools waste in electricity bills. In highschool, I could walk into a classroom with forty computers, all of which were on, even though only half a dozen students were actually there. Not to mention the huge flood lights that schools love to leave on all night, every night.

Also, schools seem to spend too much on architecture. Honestly, my learning environment is the same whether I'm in a decades old portable or a brand new lecture hall with crome and walnut finishes and laptop plugins for every student.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-19 03:03pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:cutting athletics is no different than cutting music IMO. Whether you agree or not , they provide avenues of development and expression for students. The comments dismissing athletics as expendable are disturbing and reek of elitism and are no different than uber-jocks dismissing music and the arts.

While athletics is a valid part of schooling, reducing the rest of the school of singlewide trailers to pay for a new gym(When the old one is not even eight years old!) is incredibly elitist and stupid. And frankly, music, the arts, and athletics are not the biggest problems areas. Did everyone forget that science education is now so poor that Creationism is taking hold?

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2004-08-19 03:09pm

SirNitram wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:cutting athletics is no different than cutting music IMO. Whether you agree or not , they provide avenues of development and expression for students. The comments dismissing athletics as expendable are disturbing and reek of elitism and are no different than uber-jocks dismissing music and the arts.
While athletics is a valid part of schooling, reducing the rest of the school of singlewide trailers to pay for a new gym(When the old one is not even eight years old!) is incredibly elitist and stupid. And frankly, music, the arts, and athletics are not the biggest problems areas. Did everyone forget that science education is now so poor that Creationism is taking hold?

WTF~!!? FUCK!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-19 03:11pm

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:WTF~!!? FUCK!

You've surely seen the survey they've done in this country, the Kansas board of ed, the fact the ruler of this nation thinks Evolution isn't quite it. If that's not Creationism taking hold, I fear the point at which you would think so. Science education is hurting the most, from what I've seen.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2004-08-19 03:27pm

SirNitram wrote:
Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:WTF~!!? FUCK!
You've surely seen the survey they've done in this country, the Kansas board of ed, the fact the ruler of this nation thinks Evolution isn't quite it. If that's not Creationism taking hold, I fear the point at which you would think so. Science education is hurting the most, from what I've seen.

I knew it was bad, but not that bad! Fucking hell, if it weren't for science education I wouldn't have found an interest in _anything_ at school! Why can't something else get so atrophied, or best yet _NOTHING_ get fucked over! English, Maths of all kinds, History, Science, Art, etc. are ALL EQUALLY IMPORTANT. If we don't learn how and why, then we are doomed to be left behind while the world goes on without us.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-08-19 03:57pm

as opposed to the hold it had 40 years ago?

post numbers to prove your claim.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-19 04:02pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:as opposed to the hold it had 40 years ago? post numbers to prove your claim.

Numbers, huh? Apparently instances of groups nearly getting Creationism taught in schools aren't 'adequete' for you. What sort of numbers would you like? The famous survey about what Americans think about the age of the Earth, or what? I don't get the hostility; do you honestly not realize that science education is getting shafted even harder than the arts? Or are you mad because I pointed out that pandering to athletics at the expense of arts AND science is far more biased and elitist than what you claimed goes on?

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2004-08-19 04:09pm

My former school district lost millions of dollars because the accountant simply "lost track" of the money. I wonder where it all ended up~~

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-08-19 04:41pm

While athletics is a valid part of schooling, reducing the rest of the school of singlewide trailers to pay for a new gym(When the old one is not even eight years old!) is incredibly elitist and stupid. And frankly, music, the arts, and athletics are not the biggest problems areas. Did everyone forget that science education is now so poor that Creationism is taking hold?

That says more about the power of religious indoctrination than it does about the quality of scientific education in American schools. If you are not forcefed religious dogma throughout your entire childhood, generally speaking you will understand at least the basics of Darwinism when you graduate high school (assuming you go to a good school and aren't a total fuck-off, of course).

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-19 04:46pm

Joe wrote:
While athletics is a valid part of schooling, reducing the rest of the school of singlewide trailers to pay for a new gym(When the old one is not even eight years old!) is incredibly elitist and stupid. And frankly, music, the arts, and athletics are not the biggest problems areas. Did everyone forget that science education is now so poor that Creationism is taking hold?
That says more about the power of religious indoctrination than it does about the quality of scientific education in American schools. If you are not forcefed religious dogma throughout your entire childhood, generally speaking you will understand at least the basics of Darwinism when you graduate high school (assuming you go to a good school and aren't a total fuck-off, of course).

I can't agree. If you have basic critical thinking skills and knowledge of the scientific process, it's easy to see Creationism for the tripe it is. Instead, we get given rote memorization of facts, which is what allows Creationism to really flourish.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-08-19 04:46pm

SirNitram wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:as opposed to the hold it had 40 years ago? post numbers to prove your claim.
Numbers, huh? Apparently instances of groups nearly getting Creationism taught in schools aren't 'adequete' for you. What sort of numbers would you like? The famous survey about what Americans think about the age of the Earth, or what? I don't get the hostility; do you honestly not realize that science education is getting shafted even harder than the arts? Or are you mad because I pointed out that pandering to athletics at the expense of arts AND science is far more biased and elitist than what you claimed goes on?

Is it your assertation that creationism is more widespred in the United States now than it was 50 years ago? 25 years ago? Your initial statement was a vauge one... i suspect deliberately so. Would you larify your statement and support it with evidence?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-08-19 04:50pm

cutting athletics is no different than cutting music IMO. Whether you agree or not , they provide avenues of development and expression for students. The comments dismissing athletics as expendable are disturbing and reek of elitism and are no different than uber-jocks dismissing music and the arts.

Which is why I incudled the already existing athletics facilities to give you more background

Do you not agree in a school that is in the part in a parking lot with two Gyms, a Football, and Soccer field that building a new Football field with stadium seating?(Covered at that)

Any guess how much something like that would cost?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-19 04:58pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:as opposed to the hold it had 40 years ago? post numbers to prove your claim.
Numbers, huh? Apparently instances of groups nearly getting Creationism taught in schools aren't 'adequete' for you. What sort of numbers would you like? The famous survey about what Americans think about the age of the Earth, or what? I don't get the hostility; do you honestly not realize that science education is getting shafted even harder than the arts? Or are you mad because I pointed out that pandering to athletics at the expense of arts AND science is far more biased and elitist than what you claimed goes on?
Is it your assertation that creationism is more widespred in the United States now than it was 50 years ago? 25 years ago? Your initial statement was a vauge one... i suspect deliberately so. Would you larify your statement and support it with evidence?

I repeat my request: What, exactly, are you wanting and will you accept? I brought up the flourishing of Creationism as a symptom of poor science education standards. Now, it is possible that Creationism's grip on education has remained steady since the sixties. Of course, if it has, this is a rather nasty indicator: Despite mammoth amounts of evidence being uncovered in opposition to Creationism and two court decisions making it required to teach Evolution and illegal to teach Creationism(National Centre For Science Education records them both as Supreme Court, but they may be state level), you are claiming it has remained steady! I would call that a bad sign, wouldn't you?

If it is about the suffering of science education, I will need some time to gather national-level data on funding patterns.. IF such is even tracked on teh large scale.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2004-08-19 05:09pm

I agree with Joe here. The quality of education may have remained steady, but religious indoctrination may have improved.

It really can be quite easy to slide in the old "New science shows Old science" wrong trick in creationism articles, and without investing any time and effort to analyse what is actually being said, one may absorb it whole sale instead.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-08-19 05:30pm

I dunno, Nitram, maybe i'm spoiled by where i live. We just don't have the throngs of creationist fundies here. Sure we have lots of catholics, but even they are mellowing out. Sorry if i came off a bit rude, but i just don't see creationism as stong now as it was 50 or 25 years ago.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-08-19 05:34pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:I dunno, Nitram, maybe i'm spoiled by where i live. We just don't have the throngs of creationist fundies here. Sure we have lots of catholics, but even they are mellowing out. Sorry if i came off a bit rude, but i just don't see creationism as stong now as it was 50 or 25 years ago.

I'm quite spoiled as well in the 'Where I live' part. Conneticut is, let's face it, the rich and high class place. And West Virginia, despite being part of the Bible Belt, doesn't touch creationism(Try to imagine the Baptists of a full state agreeing on ANY issue of such, let alone setting a curriculum). I'm just looking at national trends, and it's certainly not getting better.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2004-08-19 06:06pm

SirNitram wrote: I'm just looking at national trends, and it's certainly not getting better.

i wouldn't go that far. there are always going to be ebbs and flows, but to say it is worse than 20 or even 10 years ago is a bit of a stretch.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-08-19 06:42pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:cutting athletics is no different than cutting music IMO. Whether you agree or not , they provide avenues of development and expression for students. The comments dismissing athletics as expendable are disturbing and reek of elitism and are no different than uber-jocks dismissing music and the arts.

The difference lies in that students have demonstrably done better in math and science when music classes are kept as part of early childhood curriculum. There has been no such correlation shown between athletics and the sciences. Moving up to the college level momentarily, it's considered wonderful for a sports team to have a 3.0 average GPA (and this when they're required to maintain a 2.0 to play). Out of ~20 athletic teams, only 3 averaged a 3.0 or higher. Athletics is important to maintaining health; it is not something that tax dollars or scholarships should go towards (IMO) as it does not appreciably benefit society to train an extra golfer (example only, other sports are no more important). The thing that disturbs me is that the arts are nearly always the first thing cut from the schools (down here, at least), despite the fact that they do demonstrably improve thinking skills, pattern recognition, and mathematical computation skills.

As far as funding problems: here in Florida, it's mostly greed, IMO. The lottery advertises that they've given $6 billion to education over the last ten years. This is true, just like it's true that the government cut education funding by $600 million per year. Once you figure the math, the government cut funding by the exact amount the lottery added to funding, creating a wash. The No Child Left Behind is hurting our schools also, as teachers who live on the north side are being shifted to schools in the south because they're good teachers and have to be reassigned to bad schools. Many are quitting rather than drive 4 hours a day round trip to work.

I don't know whether Creationism is more or less of a problem now than it was 20 or 50 years ago, but I know it's worse than 120 years ago, because it didn't really exist before then. It's a 20th-21st century phenomenon.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-08-19 06:47pm

SirNitram wrote:Instead, we get given rote memorization of facts, which is what allows Creationism to really flourish.

Speking for myself, I wish we had more rote memorization, damn
multiplication tables, I can only remember the fives....

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-08-19 07:45pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:cutting athletics is no different than cutting music IMO. Whether you agree or not , they provide avenues of development and expression for students. The comments dismissing athletics as expendable are disturbing and reek of elitism and are no different than uber-jocks dismissing music and the arts.

Athletics help foster social skills and team-building. However, they don't present benefits that are irreplaceable. A school with absolutely no athletic programs to speak of would still be perfectly capable of providing a quality education to students.

To be honest though, I'd say that both athletics and the arts are mostly on the same level of importance. That level happens to be decidedly below mathematics, science, English and history. The difference is that athletics costs a shitload more than the arts. Athletic programs are a black hole of money, while arts programs can do well with significantly less funding. Either way, that's funding that could go to the science lab, which teaches skills that are infinitely more valuable.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-08-19 07:49pm

Iceberg wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:yeah, thats the answer Iceberg, throw money at the problem. that always works.
Works better than taking away money and telling schools to cope or die.

There is significant evidence that some private schools even in poor areas do significantly better with less money per student than the public system. I agree teachers need more respect and money and standards liberated from the unions; no more seniority = job security.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-08-19 07:56pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:There is significant evidence that some private schools even in poor areas do significantly better with less money per student than the public system. I agree teachers need more respect and money and standards liberated from the unions; no more seniority = job security.

I have to agree. The whole point of unions is to protect workers from corporations mistreating them, not to gouge employers and the government to obscene levels.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-08-19 07:59pm

My high school just built a new weight room, brand new, soley for the football team to use(ie, weight training doesnt use it etc etc)

However, the math and science books are literally talling apart at the seems and the foreign language books are 20 years old(and also falling apart)

It is a cultural issue that elevates athletics and physical acheivment over intellectual accomplishments in this country. For example, I have watched atheletes walk up to teachers and simply ask that their grades be padded so they can continue playing, and have it given to them. While I still had to actually do the work. It is rather sickening