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[header]
[Not Flaming/Bigotry/Spam] Is the bible legitimate?
[/header]
We all know that for nearly 1600 years the bible has been the centre of Christian beliefs, but I wish to bring up the point: how do we determine if it is a legitimate text?
Against it we have the problem that there is no corroborating evidence.
-The Romans who were notoriously anal about such things have no record of an insurgency by a man named Jesus, or even of executing him. Only in about 150ce do they start complaining about a new cult emerging and threatening the establishment.
-Many of the events mentioned in both the new and the old testaments lack corroborating evidence of their occurance. The flood, the presence of the jews in Egypt and their subsequent move to the middle east...
Yes you may argue that the bible is all the evidence you need, but can a court convict based on a single testimony from a witness that noone can identify or prove exists? Can a thesis be accepted if it only quotes from one source and doesn't attempt to back up its arguements.
How do we know that the bible is even the same bible that was (allegedly) written by the disciples/apostles. Even if it was, it would have been translated and transcribed so many times that it would likely have had some meaning lost or changed. Or does the hand of god aid the hand of the scribes?
Well? Topic is open for debate.
[Not Flaming/Bigotry/Spam] Is the bible legitimate?
[/header]
We all know that for nearly 1600 years the bible has been the centre of Christian beliefs, but I wish to bring up the point: how do we determine if it is a legitimate text?
Against it we have the problem that there is no corroborating evidence.
-The Romans who were notoriously anal about such things have no record of an insurgency by a man named Jesus, or even of executing him. Only in about 150ce do they start complaining about a new cult emerging and threatening the establishment.
-Many of the events mentioned in both the new and the old testaments lack corroborating evidence of their occurance. The flood, the presence of the jews in Egypt and their subsequent move to the middle east...
Yes you may argue that the bible is all the evidence you need, but can a court convict based on a single testimony from a witness that noone can identify or prove exists? Can a thesis be accepted if it only quotes from one source and doesn't attempt to back up its arguements.
How do we know that the bible is even the same bible that was (allegedly) written by the disciples/apostles. Even if it was, it would have been translated and transcribed so many times that it would likely have had some meaning lost or changed. Or does the hand of god aid the hand of the scribes?
Well? Topic is open for debate.
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Coyote
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Ze'ev-Eretz
Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 22
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 7:43 pm Post subject:
Good public works, in the Hebrew tradition, is a way to bind the community together
as well. It serves as an example to the young ones, growing up and seeing the good works being done: the alms to the poor, providing shelter to widows and orphans, etc. It will be easier for a child growing up in this environment to retain a sense of goodness.
The nice thing is, this environment has benefits to all in the community, even believers of other faiths or non-believers, and so is all-inclusive. Their own children grow up to be good citizens and reaffirm the need for loving-kindness (from the original Hebrew 'hesed', which also implies a pationate adherence to the principles of selflessness, and frequently teamed with 'khen', a sort of feminine purity and grace).
So the works themselves are not the keys to Heaven, but more like clearly delineating a path to righteousness.
Hate and intolerance from the community will only breed violent counter-reaction, and so has no place in the formula. A prisoner who commits wrongs is not confined due to hate (ideally) but in a sense of kindness; to rehabilitate him while protecting others. But it is wrong to exclude others from the community just because they are different. The actual sin of the settlement of S'dom ('Sodom' in the Anglicized version) was not homosexuality as is usually quoted, but the sin of being inhospitable to strangers. Judaism says that 'the law of righteousness extends to you and to the stranger that dwells among you'.
It is, I think, a good example to follow.
_________________
Baruch atah, Adonai, elohainu melekh ha'olam, bishvil ha'pri ha'gepan...
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Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 22
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 7:43 pm Post subject:
Good public works, in the Hebrew tradition, is a way to bind the community together
as well. It serves as an example to the young ones, growing up and seeing the good works being done: the alms to the poor, providing shelter to widows and orphans, etc. It will be easier for a child growing up in this environment to retain a sense of goodness.
The nice thing is, this environment has benefits to all in the community, even believers of other faiths or non-believers, and so is all-inclusive. Their own children grow up to be good citizens and reaffirm the need for loving-kindness (from the original Hebrew 'hesed', which also implies a pationate adherence to the principles of selflessness, and frequently teamed with 'khen', a sort of feminine purity and grace).
So the works themselves are not the keys to Heaven, but more like clearly delineating a path to righteousness.
Hate and intolerance from the community will only breed violent counter-reaction, and so has no place in the formula. A prisoner who commits wrongs is not confined due to hate (ideally) but in a sense of kindness; to rehabilitate him while protecting others. But it is wrong to exclude others from the community just because they are different. The actual sin of the settlement of S'dom ('Sodom' in the Anglicized version) was not homosexuality as is usually quoted, but the sin of being inhospitable to strangers. Judaism says that 'the law of righteousness extends to you and to the stranger that dwells among you'.
It is, I think, a good example to follow.
_________________
Baruch atah, Adonai, elohainu melekh ha'olam, bishvil ha'pri ha'gepan...
Back to top
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
-
Coyote
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 12464
- Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
- Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
- Contact:
Ze'ev-Eretz
Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 22
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:59 pm Post subject:
jairyn wrote:
EDIT that last post: as he loves all other people. He loves peoiple of other
religions as he loves all other Christians and Jews. Am I correct?
Absolutely. God loves all creatures, including sinners. Some say he loves sinners the most since they have the hardest task before them, the path to change. Again, we are back tot he Jewish precept that the 'righteous of all the nations will have aplace in the Kingdom of Heaven'. Many will have to do a sort of penance; Judaism does not focus on that since judgement and punishment are supposed to be up to God (of course this still means that for temporal crimes a person is confined, but the weight on his soul/conscience will be seen to by God).
In Judaism, the fate in the afterlife centers mostly on a state of Justice. There is no 'Hell' or 'Devil', these concepts do not exist. A person pays for their mistakes in a proportional and just manner that brings enlightenment, comprehension, and understanding-- not torture and boiling in oil. When deviltry is alluded to it is rare but used as a metaphor to personify human failing rather than a bogeyman to pin blame on.
You see, it is not for humans to determine another's Righteousness. We are to live together in 'hesed' (lovingkindness) and accept people into the Community. Only God can judge the worth of a man's heart-- anyone in the temporal world who dares to declare another person intolerable and hated is daring to step into God's shoes; the highest sin above all things and the epitome of hypocrisy.
So no mortal man can dare declare another banished from the love of God, regardless of what the Bible says God likes or not. The lowliest among us may well be God's favored, and how we unknowingly treat that person reveals our own sincerity in faith.
"Shma Yisrael, Adonai elohainu, Adonai ahad"
_________________
Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 22
Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:59 pm Post subject:
jairyn wrote:
EDIT that last post: as he loves all other people. He loves peoiple of other
religions as he loves all other Christians and Jews. Am I correct?
Absolutely. God loves all creatures, including sinners. Some say he loves sinners the most since they have the hardest task before them, the path to change. Again, we are back tot he Jewish precept that the 'righteous of all the nations will have aplace in the Kingdom of Heaven'. Many will have to do a sort of penance; Judaism does not focus on that since judgement and punishment are supposed to be up to God (of course this still means that for temporal crimes a person is confined, but the weight on his soul/conscience will be seen to by God).
In Judaism, the fate in the afterlife centers mostly on a state of Justice. There is no 'Hell' or 'Devil', these concepts do not exist. A person pays for their mistakes in a proportional and just manner that brings enlightenment, comprehension, and understanding-- not torture and boiling in oil. When deviltry is alluded to it is rare but used as a metaphor to personify human failing rather than a bogeyman to pin blame on.
You see, it is not for humans to determine another's Righteousness. We are to live together in 'hesed' (lovingkindness) and accept people into the Community. Only God can judge the worth of a man's heart-- anyone in the temporal world who dares to declare another person intolerable and hated is daring to step into God's shoes; the highest sin above all things and the epitome of hypocrisy.
So no mortal man can dare declare another banished from the love of God, regardless of what the Bible says God likes or not. The lowliest among us may well be God's favored, and how we unknowingly treat that person reveals our own sincerity in faith.
"Shma Yisrael, Adonai elohainu, Adonai ahad"
_________________
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
-
Coyote
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 12464
- Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
- Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
- Contact:
Ze'ev-Eretz
Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 22
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2002 5:58 pm Post subject:
Vymer wrote:
Here's some dodgy prophecies- do Jews believe in any of these?
virgin birth
No, there is no such thing prophesied in the Torah, only that the messiah will be a descendant of the line of King David.
Quote:
Bethlehem birth
No, the messiah will arrive around the town of Tzfat, next to Tiberia on the shores of the Yam Kinneret (the actual name of the "Sea of Galilee"). He would be preceeded by the prophet Elija, who would then lead the Messiah from Tzfat to Jerusalem, and they would approach the gates to Jerusalem with Elija leading the Messiah, who would be riding on a white donkey.
Quote:
Herod's slaughter
I don't immediately recall anything about Herod's slaughter, since that is more of a NT event, but I never heard of a mass slaughter preceeding the coming of the Messiah. Preperations would be made for such a thing and the yeshivah I studied at mentioned no such thing, and they were orthodox.
Something else to bear in mind, the exact same 'slaughter of the babes' story is told by ancient Roman legend, when the King of Alba Longa (the city that preceeded Rome as the refuge for the Troyan/Latium tribes) was foretold of a prophesy that a child would be born that would usurp his kingship. Later, his sister- in-law, a member of the Vestal Virgins, became pregnant (supposedly by Mars) and the children were spared slaughter by hiding them away near the banks of the Tiber river where they were suckled by a she-wolf. The children, of course, were Romulus and Remus, Romulus who went on to found Rome as its king.
This interesting bit of background information, which occured around 590 BCE, would be a good base of invenstigation to contemplate the whole concept of 'virgin birth', 'divine conception', and 'prophetic child kings'.
Quote:
Judah and the Potter's Field
I'm not too good at New Testament stuff since, of course, that is not in the purview of the Hebrew tradition. But "yatsar" and "atsar" could be misinterpreted, since in the Torah itself there are misspellings that seem to be deliberate and scholars have tried tofigure out what, if anything, is meant by it. It sounds to me like a story was retold as a third-hand account and the details got mixed up. There is nothing in Jewish prophesy about the Messiah being betrayed and killed, though. In fact, in Hebrew tradition, the Messiah's arrival ushers in a thousand-year reign of peace, which any survey of ancient history can clearly demonstrate did not happen from 1 CE-1000 CE...
_________________
Baruch atah, Adonai, elohainu melekh ha'olam, bishvil ha'pri ha'gepan...
Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 22
Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2002 5:58 pm Post subject:
Vymer wrote:
Here's some dodgy prophecies- do Jews believe in any of these?
virgin birth
No, there is no such thing prophesied in the Torah, only that the messiah will be a descendant of the line of King David.
Quote:
Bethlehem birth
No, the messiah will arrive around the town of Tzfat, next to Tiberia on the shores of the Yam Kinneret (the actual name of the "Sea of Galilee"). He would be preceeded by the prophet Elija, who would then lead the Messiah from Tzfat to Jerusalem, and they would approach the gates to Jerusalem with Elija leading the Messiah, who would be riding on a white donkey.
Quote:
Herod's slaughter
I don't immediately recall anything about Herod's slaughter, since that is more of a NT event, but I never heard of a mass slaughter preceeding the coming of the Messiah. Preperations would be made for such a thing and the yeshivah I studied at mentioned no such thing, and they were orthodox.
Something else to bear in mind, the exact same 'slaughter of the babes' story is told by ancient Roman legend, when the King of Alba Longa (the city that preceeded Rome as the refuge for the Troyan/Latium tribes) was foretold of a prophesy that a child would be born that would usurp his kingship. Later, his sister- in-law, a member of the Vestal Virgins, became pregnant (supposedly by Mars) and the children were spared slaughter by hiding them away near the banks of the Tiber river where they were suckled by a she-wolf. The children, of course, were Romulus and Remus, Romulus who went on to found Rome as its king.
This interesting bit of background information, which occured around 590 BCE, would be a good base of invenstigation to contemplate the whole concept of 'virgin birth', 'divine conception', and 'prophetic child kings'.
Quote:
Judah and the Potter's Field
I'm not too good at New Testament stuff since, of course, that is not in the purview of the Hebrew tradition. But "yatsar" and "atsar" could be misinterpreted, since in the Torah itself there are misspellings that seem to be deliberate and scholars have tried tofigure out what, if anything, is meant by it. It sounds to me like a story was retold as a third-hand account and the details got mixed up. There is nothing in Jewish prophesy about the Messiah being betrayed and killed, though. In fact, in Hebrew tradition, the Messiah's arrival ushers in a thousand-year reign of peace, which any survey of ancient history can clearly demonstrate did not happen from 1 CE-1000 CE...
_________________
Baruch atah, Adonai, elohainu melekh ha'olam, bishvil ha'pri ha'gepan...
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
-
Coyote
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 12464
- Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
- Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
- Contact:
Ze'ev-Eretz
Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 22
Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:44 pm Post subject:
Hey, Vymer, no problem. I've enjoyed historical research in the past about this
time, as an amateur, and discussed many things witha friend of mine who is a Methodist minister and a big proponent of the search for the historical Jesus. She is keen on peeling away the layers of misinterpretation or even outright falsehood that would threaten Jesus's role.
For example, Christianity has a pretty impressive foundation-- many miracles, like the Loaves and Fishes, and the walking on water, were seen by crowds of dozens to 'thousands'. So it's not like a collection of stories with just one guy who heard it from a neighbor's uncle... you know.
But there are some oddities, too... for example, the prophet Elisha also performed miracles, like pouring a vast amount of oil from a tiny vial (Kings II; 4:1-7), he also revived the dead (Mark 5:35-43) and ascended into heaven alive (Kings II; 2:9-14). Yet the Torah never claimed Elisha to be the Messiah or God, in fact it warns against the coming of false prophets who will perform real miracles and warns the Jews not to follow anyone who tries to lead them from the Torah's teachings (Deuteronomy; 13: 2-6).
Jesus's Davidic lineage, another claim to Messiah status, came under scrutiny. Here I was pointed to the work Rabbi Lawrence Kelemen, a personal acquaintance of mine, who has done his own research in comparing the New Testament to the Torah. He found some discrepancies between Matthew and Luke-- Matthew 1:6-16 said that twenty-eight generations seperated Jesus from King David, whereas Luke 3:23-38 shows forty-three generations of seperation. It was even pointed out that the two apostles did not even agree on Jesus's paternal grandfather. How odd!
My friend Rabbi Kelemen also found an essay by Catholic theologian John P. Meier, which was endorsed by the Archbishop of Milan, who admits that the geneologies "are of questionable historicity". The essay was "Jesus of History: Origins and Ministry" by John P. Meier, in the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, 1319.
There are some fascinating things one can find when one looks around. Some fascinating work is being done by the theologians who are searching for the historical Jesus which seems most enlightening.
Take care!
"Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai elohainu, Adonai ahad!"
Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 22
Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 10:44 pm Post subject:
Hey, Vymer, no problem. I've enjoyed historical research in the past about this
time, as an amateur, and discussed many things witha friend of mine who is a Methodist minister and a big proponent of the search for the historical Jesus. She is keen on peeling away the layers of misinterpretation or even outright falsehood that would threaten Jesus's role.
For example, Christianity has a pretty impressive foundation-- many miracles, like the Loaves and Fishes, and the walking on water, were seen by crowds of dozens to 'thousands'. So it's not like a collection of stories with just one guy who heard it from a neighbor's uncle... you know.
But there are some oddities, too... for example, the prophet Elisha also performed miracles, like pouring a vast amount of oil from a tiny vial (Kings II; 4:1-7), he also revived the dead (Mark 5:35-43) and ascended into heaven alive (Kings II; 2:9-14). Yet the Torah never claimed Elisha to be the Messiah or God, in fact it warns against the coming of false prophets who will perform real miracles and warns the Jews not to follow anyone who tries to lead them from the Torah's teachings (Deuteronomy; 13: 2-6).
Jesus's Davidic lineage, another claim to Messiah status, came under scrutiny. Here I was pointed to the work Rabbi Lawrence Kelemen, a personal acquaintance of mine, who has done his own research in comparing the New Testament to the Torah. He found some discrepancies between Matthew and Luke-- Matthew 1:6-16 said that twenty-eight generations seperated Jesus from King David, whereas Luke 3:23-38 shows forty-three generations of seperation. It was even pointed out that the two apostles did not even agree on Jesus's paternal grandfather. How odd!
My friend Rabbi Kelemen also found an essay by Catholic theologian John P. Meier, which was endorsed by the Archbishop of Milan, who admits that the geneologies "are of questionable historicity". The essay was "Jesus of History: Origins and Ministry" by John P. Meier, in the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, 1319.
There are some fascinating things one can find when one looks around. Some fascinating work is being done by the theologians who are searching for the historical Jesus which seems most enlightening.
Take care!
"Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai elohainu, Adonai ahad!"
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
-
Coyote
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 12464
- Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
- Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
- Contact:
The following insn't my post, but it is a good example of some of the hypocrisy we've sen: watch the Admin, Bob Moore, treat Thoth like an idiot for asking a question in a manner less-than-Shakespeare.
Oddly enough, folks like Vympel and Verilon get banned for posts that were nowhere near as snotty as Moore's replies to Thoth...
Bob Moore
Site Administrator
Joined: 25 Jun 2002
Posts: 161
Location: Canton, North Carolina
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:31 am Post subject:
thoth wrote:
than you zap821...........you say that allah is described differently so what??
you say that hindus do not worship the same god .......
I think that you might be thinking you are somehow better or more right than these others ...................your god is stronger than these others .
ego again.................
there is one god with many names..........or there is no god....
religion has more to do with nationalism than god........
For one who has assumed the name of the Egyptian god of wisdom and learning you display remarkable ignorance.
It is customary to have at least a modicum of knowledge on a given subject before setting out to ridicule its exponents. However, you have come to the right place. Stick around, talk less, and you might learn something.
_________________
"The fool hath said in his heart, 'there is no God'".
Oddly enough, folks like Vympel and Verilon get banned for posts that were nowhere near as snotty as Moore's replies to Thoth...
Bob Moore
Site Administrator
Joined: 25 Jun 2002
Posts: 161
Location: Canton, North Carolina
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:31 am Post subject:
thoth wrote:
than you zap821...........you say that allah is described differently so what??
you say that hindus do not worship the same god .......
I think that you might be thinking you are somehow better or more right than these others ...................your god is stronger than these others .
ego again.................
there is one god with many names..........or there is no god....
religion has more to do with nationalism than god........
For one who has assumed the name of the Egyptian god of wisdom and learning you display remarkable ignorance.
It is customary to have at least a modicum of knowledge on a given subject before setting out to ridicule its exponents. However, you have come to the right place. Stick around, talk less, and you might learn something.
_________________
"The fool hath said in his heart, 'there is no God'".
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
-
haas mark
- Official SD.Net Insomniac
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- Contact:
What a friggin asshole!Coyote wrote:The following insn't my post, but it is a good example of some of the hypocrisy we've sen: watch the Admin, Bob Moore, treat Thoth like an idiot for asking a question in a manner less-than-Shakespeare.
Oddly enough, folks like Vympel and Verilon get banned for posts that were nowhere near as snotty as Moore's replies to Thoth...
Bob Moore
Site Administrator
Joined: 25 Jun 2002
Posts: 161
Location: Canton, North Carolina
Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:31 am Post subject:
thoth wrote:
than you zap821...........you say that allah is described differently so what??
you say that hindus do not worship the same god .......
I think that you might be thinking you are somehow better or more right than these others ...................your god is stronger than these others .
ego again.................
there is one god with many names..........or there is no god....
religion has more to do with nationalism than god........
For one who has assumed the name of the Egyptian god of wisdom and learning you display remarkable ignorance.
It is customary to have at least a modicum of knowledge on a given subject before setting out to ridicule its exponents. However, you have come to the right place. Stick around, talk less, and you might learn something.
_________________
"The fool hath said in his heart, 'there is no God'".
Also, if any of you guys could figure out why I was IP banned, that would be cool! I can't see ANYTHING on Creationweb....
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Hot Pants à la Zaia | BotM Lord Monkey Mod OOK!
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Formerly verilon
R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005
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Ze'ev-Eretz
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Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 23
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:59 am Post subject:
Some of these guys are asking challenging questions, and looking for outside verification-- in today' society, can you blame them? It seems perfectly reasonable.
We have to admit that religion, and believers, are frequently portrayed as intolerant and closed-minded; reactionary, even. Now you have people coming to the board and you have the chance to show true colors. Use it to the best of your ability!
--Ze'ev-Eretz
Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 23
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 3:59 am Post subject:
Why not let someone say what they want; would that Jesus chap have turned away someone just for beeing disagreeable? I've noticed a call for more non-Christians to join the board and make the debates lively, you're not going to get everyone who debates by Duchess of Queensbury chivalric code, you know.SBollinger wrote:
I think your sig pretty much says it all.
If you're here for clarification or to discuss something you don't understand-feel free.
If you're here to simply slam Christianity and Christians and the Bible, go away.
Some of these guys are asking challenging questions, and looking for outside verification-- in today' society, can you blame them? It seems perfectly reasonable.
We have to admit that religion, and believers, are frequently portrayed as intolerant and closed-minded; reactionary, even. Now you have people coming to the board and you have the chance to show true colors. Use it to the best of your ability!
--Ze'ev-Eretz
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
First post: I have been reading the various posts on this board for awhile and have discovered that two members have been banned and their posts have been deleted. However, upon reflection of the nature of the posts I do not see how those members, Verilon and Alyrium Denryle, have done anything to warrant banning.
The policy regarding banning is as follows:
"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed)."
Looking at the posts that those two members have made I fail to see how those posts constituted a breach of this policy as well as how they have exceeded the precedence set by posts that have not been deleted.
The mod(s) that have made the bans on the aforementioned members seems to have violated the policy by not following it. As such, the two banned members should have their bans reversed and the mod(s) responsible should be censured. Unless, of course the mod(s) can prove how the posts of the two members violated the aforementioned policy.
As it stands it appears that the mod is using his abilities to arbitrarily determine the nature and makeup of the participants of this board. Nowhere in the user policy does it give the mod this level of authority.
Therefore, unless the mod(s) can prove that the Verilon and Alyrium Denryle have violated the terms of use their bans should be lifted.
Second post:jairyn wrote:
Actually, that was a post directed to Vymer form SBollinger. IIRC, Verilon was trying to appeal Vymer's locked thread (the Mark whatever). Consequently, the thread was locked. Thusly, he spammed the board with the same post trying to warrant some attention. Then, of course, SBollinger banned him. IPly, no less.
This brings to mind 5 questions.
1. Why was Vymer banned?
2. Did and/or why did Sbollinger fail to respond respond to a valid point?
3. Does 4 count as spamming, considering that the first request was shot down as well as the seemingly high level of abuse of power?
4. In light of that count and the cause of that reaction, does Verilon's ban still meet the criteria of the policy for banning?
5. What about Alyrium Denryle?
Verilon, I'm working on why you and the others were banned and seeing if I can get you guys unbanned.
The policy regarding banning is as follows:
"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed)."
Looking at the posts that those two members have made I fail to see how those posts constituted a breach of this policy as well as how they have exceeded the precedence set by posts that have not been deleted.
The mod(s) that have made the bans on the aforementioned members seems to have violated the policy by not following it. As such, the two banned members should have their bans reversed and the mod(s) responsible should be censured. Unless, of course the mod(s) can prove how the posts of the two members violated the aforementioned policy.
As it stands it appears that the mod is using his abilities to arbitrarily determine the nature and makeup of the participants of this board. Nowhere in the user policy does it give the mod this level of authority.
Therefore, unless the mod(s) can prove that the Verilon and Alyrium Denryle have violated the terms of use their bans should be lifted.
Second post:jairyn wrote:
Actually, that was a post directed to Vymer form SBollinger. IIRC, Verilon was trying to appeal Vymer's locked thread (the Mark whatever). Consequently, the thread was locked. Thusly, he spammed the board with the same post trying to warrant some attention. Then, of course, SBollinger banned him. IPly, no less.
This brings to mind 5 questions.
1. Why was Vymer banned?
2. Did and/or why did Sbollinger fail to respond respond to a valid point?
3. Does 4 count as spamming, considering that the first request was shot down as well as the seemingly high level of abuse of power?
4. In light of that count and the cause of that reaction, does Verilon's ban still meet the criteria of the policy for banning?
5. What about Alyrium Denryle?
Verilon, I'm working on why you and the others were banned and seeing if I can get you guys unbanned.
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Ze'ev- Eretz
Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 24
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:17 am Post subject:
You know... the Torah, that Old Testament book, which is used as the foundation for... well, you know. The only way for the New Testament to be right is for the Old Testament to be wrong... and if the OT is wrong, then the entire foundation for the NT vanishes in a puff of self-negation...
Whoops!
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Baruch atah, Adonai, elohainu melekh ha'olam, bishvil ha'pri ha'gepan...
--Ze'ev-Eretz
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Posts: 24
Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:17 am Post subject:
Uh, no, having been there and done that, I can say that there is a LOT of room for interpretation and there is a LOT MORE evidence that is lacking. My class was called "Biblical Archaeology of Ancient Israel" and was taught by Professor Steve Rosen, and the book we used was called b the same title and written by one of the foremost Biblical Archaeologists in the field, Dr. Amnon Ben-Tor. Beer-Sheva University of the Negev, 1998. Dr. Ben-Tor, dedicated his life to the facts behind the Bible as verifiable by Archaeology, cannot proove many, many, many, many things... and most of what is proved, only backs up Hebrew claims.Kyle Shockley wrote:
Yup, plenty of evidence. You night want to start witht he Bible, then move on to archaeology. You realize that Israeli Universities still use the O.T. as a reference point for their archaeological studies (as do many other archaeologists). Must be a reason why, considering it has a track record that can't be beat.
Like to be wary of false prophets who can perform real miracles but will attempt to lead the Jews astray. See also the prophet Elisha, who performed miracles but was never proclaimed the deity or son of God, etc.I realize that most people will have a problem with His claims. In fact, Jesus even guaranteed that the world would hate those who follow Him because the world hated Him.
Actully, for me the disapproval is rooted in the Tanakh, which states that the Torah is the word of God, given to Moses on Mount Sinai, and warns of false prophets.It usually seems that the folks who have problems with the Bible have their disaproval rooted in whatever personal quarrel they might have with what it says, not with what we have as far as internal and external evidence...
You know... the Torah, that Old Testament book, which is used as the foundation for... well, you know. The only way for the New Testament to be right is for the Old Testament to be wrong... and if the OT is wrong, then the entire foundation for the NT vanishes in a puff of self-negation...
Whoops!
_________________
Baruch atah, Adonai, elohainu melekh ha'olam, bishvil ha'pri ha'gepan...
--Ze'ev-Eretz
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Here's something you should mention:
the thread after which I was banned was locked after I posted a host of bible translations, dictionaries, commentaries etc etc all *fully referenced* to destroy the vague appeal to authority SBollinger had been making throughout our entire debate- something along the lines of "200 years of Bible scholarship agrees with me". Nowhere in the entire debate did he cite any sources to support his opinion, and flatly refused to acknowledge (without reasoning, of course) that the entire New Testament agreed that Christ would be returning 'very quickly' (which I supported with numerous direct quotes and citations, with bold type for emphasis).
His reasoning was "another cut and paster, see ya" (heaven forbid you use sources in a debate!!!)
This is highly hypocritical considering his VERY first post on that topic was a cut and paste that wasn't even ON TOPIC (it was a shotgun blast of irrelevant crap made to cloud the issue)- and in the last sentence, which he actually typed himself- he accused me of 'distortion'!
I didn't have time to call him out on this, because when I attempted to continue the thread, I was promptly banned.
the thread after which I was banned was locked after I posted a host of bible translations, dictionaries, commentaries etc etc all *fully referenced* to destroy the vague appeal to authority SBollinger had been making throughout our entire debate- something along the lines of "200 years of Bible scholarship agrees with me". Nowhere in the entire debate did he cite any sources to support his opinion, and flatly refused to acknowledge (without reasoning, of course) that the entire New Testament agreed that Christ would be returning 'very quickly' (which I supported with numerous direct quotes and citations, with bold type for emphasis).
His reasoning was "another cut and paster, see ya" (heaven forbid you use sources in a debate!!!)
This is highly hypocritical considering his VERY first post on that topic was a cut and paste that wasn't even ON TOPIC (it was a shotgun blast of irrelevant crap made to cloud the issue)- and in the last sentence, which he actually typed himself- he accused me of 'distortion'!
I didn't have time to call him out on this, because when I attempted to continue the thread, I was promptly banned.
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As was I for appealing to that thread-locking.Vympel wrote:Here's something you should mention:
the thread after which I was banned was locked after I posted a host of bible translations, dictionaries, commentaries etc etc all *fully referenced* to destroy the vague appeal to authority SBollinger had been making throughout our entire debate- something along the lines of "200 years of Bible scholarship agrees with me". Nowhere in the entire debate did he cite any sources to support his opinion, and flatly refused to acknowledge (without reasoning, of course) that the entire New Testament agreed that Christ would be returning 'very quickly' (which I supported with numerous direct quotes and citations, with bold type for emphasis).
His reasoning was "another cut and paster, see ya" (heaven forbid you use sources in a debate!!!)
This is highly hypocritical considering his VERY first post on that topic was a cut and paste that wasn't even ON TOPIC (it was a shotgun blast of irrelevant crap made to cloud the issue)- and in the last sentence, which he actually typed himself- he accused me of 'distortion'!
I didn't have time to call him out on this, because when I attempted to continue the thread, I was promptly banned.
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005
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Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:25 am Post subject:
jairyn wrote:
jairyn wrote:
jairyn wrote:creationistalltheway wrote:verilon wrote:What canb you say about God wants? Did he tell you? *Expects quotes from Bible or some such argument...*
Wow, now thats demanding. "Did God tell you what He wants, by the way I want you to answer without the Word of God" Its a loaded question. I can't prove to you what God says and disregard the Book in which He said it. As long as this is general bible discussion it makes absolutely no sense to argue as if it's falsity was a given, and try to get me to tell you how I know something that's in the Bible.
You guys are beating around the bush. Verilon wants us to paraphrase the bible so its easier on our eyes. Jairyn wants us to speak for God by not using the Bible, then is accusing of speaking for God.
You people are so nitpicky. Can we debate without having to test our Direction Following skills on how we can phrase it that's suitable to everyone?
I didn't ask you not to use the Bible, and neither did Verilon...simply not to use quotes, is all. And it seems YOU are beating around the bush by NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTION. You're stalling.
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005
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Woot! They even made a special prayer request for me! LOL!!!
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005
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jairyn wrote:You're stalling; I asked if saying that something is done in the name of God, is it taking his name in vain?Gricksigger wrote:Okay, you start a religion called Weeism. It teaches to wear green socks all the time. Now somebody goes around and says "Wear yellow socks in the name of Weeism!". Should we accept this as Weeism?
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005
neoolong wrote:If this board is going by the rules of the user policy, then Alyrium Denryle and others who have been banned for being homosexual should be unbanned. The rules governing this board have a policy regarding bans. As the admins and mods are supposed to follow these policies as well, then the banned users should not have been banned, as they did not violate the policy.
"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed)."
Of course, if they are not unbanned and the mods and admins responsible do not show how the banned members have violated the policy, then we, as users, can only assume that the admins and mods responsible are abusing their powers and censoring the board, ignoring the limits of the ban policy. In addition they are violating the rules of the boards and are being extremely hypocritical in that they believe that the users should abide by the policies set forth when they do not.
Therefore, I ask, why should the users of this board be subject to the rules when the admins and mods are not?
Damn, I feel like a lawyer.
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You sound like one, too...neoolong wrote:neoolong wrote:If this board is going by the rules of the user policy, then Alyrium Denryle and others who have been banned for being homosexual should be unbanned. The rules governing this board have a policy regarding bans. As the admins and mods are supposed to follow these policies as well, then the banned users should not have been banned, as they did not violate the policy.
"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed)."
Of course, if they are not unbanned and the mods and admins responsible do not show how the banned members have violated the policy, then we, as users, can only assume that the admins and mods responsible are abusing their powers and censoring the board, ignoring the limits of the ban policy. In addition they are violating the rules of the boards and are being extremely hypocritical in that they believe that the users should abide by the policies set forth when they do not.
Therefore, I ask, why should the users of this board be subject to the rules when the admins and mods are not?
Damn, I feel like a lawyer.
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005
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R.I.P. Eddie Guerrero, 09 October 1967 - 13 November 2005
Can you sue them over this?neoolong wrote:neoolong wrote:If this board is going by the rules of the user policy, then Alyrium Denryle and others who have been banned for being homosexual should be unbanned. The rules governing this board have a policy regarding bans. As the admins and mods are supposed to follow these policies as well, then the banned users should not have been banned, as they did not violate the policy.
"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed)."
Of course, if they are not unbanned and the mods and admins responsible do not show how the banned members have violated the policy, then we, as users, can only assume that the admins and mods responsible are abusing their powers and censoring the board, ignoring the limits of the ban policy. In addition they are violating the rules of the boards and are being extremely hypocritical in that they believe that the users should abide by the policies set forth when they do not.
Therefore, I ask, why should the users of this board be subject to the rules when the admins and mods are not?
Damn, I feel like a lawyer.
Don't hate; appreciate!
RIP Eddie.
RIP Eddie.
I doubt it. But, it sets a precedent which means you can act like an ass. They'll probably ban you, but it'll get the users to notice what hypocrites the admins are. A little dissent in the ranks can do wonders. Especially considering how polite my posts have been. If I get banned I'll get another username to post about my ban and have people see how extreme the admins are.Andrew wrote:Can you sue them over this?
It'll all come crumbling down like a house of cards. Mu ha ha ha ha.
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Alrighty, my latest post.
Let's see what happens.As it has been over 24 hours and those responsible for the bans have not yet responded I have decided to make it easier for them to do so. I am doing this on the boards and not through a private message because this matter concerns all the users on this board.
Vympel:
From what I can gather Vympel was posting on the a thread about Mark9:1. This thread was locked. After this incident Vympel started a new thread questioning the locking. From what I have learned from Vympel he was promptly banned after this incident.
I am asking the mod(s) responsible to explain how Vympel's threads and posts violated the ban policy as mentioned in the first post of this thread. If the mod(s) is not able to show how Vympel violated the policy then it is evidence that the mod(s) are being hypocritical in regards to the situation. This of course should make all the users question why they should follow the rules governing the board if the admins and mods do not.
Verilon:
From what I can gather Verilon was posted for this post:
"Is that all you can do is delete threads that are perfectly logical? I am saddened that you are even a moderator. You give mods a bad name, not to mention debaters. I bet you're not even reading this thread. YOu have a preemptive notion that this thread has something against you (which it does), but you don't care; you hold a grudge against me. THat's okay. Your debating skills are obviously no match for mine, or Vymer's for that matter."
He posted this four times after, I repeat after, it was ignored by the mods. I ask the mod(s) responsible how this post, even considering the count, violated the ban policy resulting in Verilon's expulsion from this board. Again, if the mods are not able to prove this and do not repeal the ban, it is more evidence for the users that the mods and admins are being hypocritical. Again, why should the users follow the rules if the mods and admins do not think they need to follow the rules themselves?
Alyrium Denryle:
From what I can gather Alyrium Denryle was banned for this post:
"Well It just so happens that i am a homosexual. And I see many things about the "Gay agenda" and guess what we do have an agenda. And would you like to know what ir really on it? Well whether you want to know or not I will tell you anyway.
1. To be free from discrimination based on sexual orientation.
What this means is that we would like to be treated fairly. We would like to be secure in employment and free from possible termination of our jobs because our boss is a homophobic bigot. It just so happens that religion is also protected by anti-discrimination laws. you choose your religion, I do not choose my sexual orientation. If anything I am more entightled to such protections than you are.
2. To be able to love and be intimate with the person of my choice without the threat of imprisonment. Did you know that In the state of i daho i can be imprisoned for life, for no other reason than being intimate with my boyfriend? In Idaho I am viewed as more of a public menace than a first degree murderer.
3. To be protected from harassment and hate crimes by law.
Without laws to protect me my school would not be willing or even be able to protect me from harassment based on my sexual orientation. Someone could beat my black and blue and the school would not be able to do anything but suspend the person for three days. I find it ironic that religion is protected under anti-discrimination laws as well.
The same arguments you are using now where used to deny the sdame rights of African Americans, women, and all the other minorities in this country. And yet i a homosexual am still living in fear. There is something terribly wrong with that picture."
Again, I ask the mod(s) responsible how this post violates the ban policy. Again, I ask the mod(s) to show how it does so. If they cannot then Alyrium Denryle should be unbanned. And again if the ban is not lifted nor the post shown to be in violation of the ban policy it is more evidence to the arbitrary nature of the admins and mods. Finally, if the nothing is done, why should any user on the board follow the rules of this board, when the admins and mods are free to ignore them?
Ultimately, it is not about what they believe in, nor religion, nor the Bible. What this is about is the adherence to the policies of this board. The admin, SBollinger, has mentioned the rules governing this board in his announcement on sock puppets. If the users are expected to follow the rules, the admins and mods must do so as well.
Therefore, I ask the those in charge to prove that the aforementioned users violated the ban policy or submit to the claim that their actions are evidence that the mods and admins feel it is justified for them to enforce their will, despite violation of policy, and ignore the rules of this board arbitrarily.
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Another one.
Actually, I have not been protesting the decisions. I have been asking for proof of how the decision to ban the members follows the user policy that was set forth when I registered. I have been reading the board long enough to notice which threads have been deleted and to have been able to communicate with the members mentioned that have been banned. Of course I would not want to stick around if stating opinions and supported opinions will be deleted and members will be banned arbitrarily. If the mods responsible are justified, then why not show how the banned members violated the user agreement, the one that is posted when people register. As it is posted during registration, it is public policy. I don't want control of the board nor do I wish to make unfair demands. I simply wish to know the rules governing the board and the nature of the posts that are allowed. Furthermore, I wish to know the ban policy so that I know what is allowed and what isn't.SBollinger wrote:To neoolong:
You have made a total of 4 posts, all in protest of mod's decisions. One has to wonder what your reason for being here is as this is not a "gripe about the mod's message board." You haven't been around long enough to have a vested interest in anything about this board. One must assume you are here to stir up trouble. You are now being formally warned to knock it off. If you want a board run to suit you, then go set one up and pay for it. This is not nor ever will be your board to control and make demands on. You can either participate in what this board is about or take a hike. Simple as that.
So I ask, what is this board about? I am willing and desire to participate in the debates about the various subjects here. However, when opinions and supported opinions are deleted and members banned, that does not fall under the category of debate. So which is it? Is this a board where I will be able to participate in a debate and where I can actually defend my opinions with evidence, or will I be arbitrarily banned if a mod or admin feels that my views do not conform to his?
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Losers ... I'd love to get that SBollinger idiot to debate where he can't ban me ... MAN I had him good in that thread.
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