Cyborg Stan wrote:And I'd still like to see them explain the process used to determine what is and is not suitable for transubstantiation.
They use the materials that Jesus used for the Last Supper when he passed the bread and wine to the disciples, to wit, unleavened wheat bread and grape wine. I say that that's just what Jesus happened to have on hand, and just about anything can be used for Communion, but hey, I'm just a Protestant.
As an atheist, I think the Catholic Church is silly by definition and the fact they demand wheat in wafers is no sillier than demanding you believe in Jesus as the Son of God. If they'd change that requirement to suit my desires, then perhaps I'd go to church if the wafers were tasty... but that's not going to happen either.
The reverend is demanding wheat because he was told it must be wheat, just like he was told God exists.
If the family wants to blame someone for the 'hardship' they are having now, they should blame themselves. Choosing an irrational belief system as your modus operandi may lead to dilemmas being resolved irrationally.
Zoink wrote:As an atheist, I think the Catholic Church is silly by definition and the fact they demand wheat in wafers is no sillier than demanding you believe in Jesus as the Son of God. If they'd change that requirement to suit my desires, then perhaps I'd go to church if the wafers were tasty... but that's not going to happen either.
The reverend is demanding wheat because he was told it must be wheat, just like he was told God exists.
If the family wants to blame someone for the 'hardship' they are having now, they should blame themselves. Choosing an irrational belief system as your modus operandi may lead to dilemmas being resolved irrationally.
Yes, because it's their own fault for having beliefs different from yours, those dirty heathen christians. You should go bomb their homes or something.
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Actually, from my understanding of being raised Catholic, you HAVE to take the wafer, but the wine is optional. Maybe it's just a misunderstanding on my part, but that's have I've always seen it. They made it seem like you can't have the wine unless you get the bread. Don't ask me. I always thought it was BS, but it was force-fed to me having gone to Catholic School all my life.
Infact, I still go to a Catholic highschool (oddly enough named simply "Catholic High School") and the subject was brought up in the Religion class, and even the teacher thought the fact that they aren't validating this little girl's first communion is bullshit.
You were mistaken. They give only the bread to those under the drinking age whose parents object to giving the children alcohol. The wine by itself does just as well for the Church's purpose as the bread by itself.
Rogue 9 wrote:You were mistaken. They give only the bread to those under the drinking age whose parents object to giving the children alcohol. The wine by itself does just as well for the Church's purpose as the bread by itself.
They never made it seem that way, but I guess that could be true.
Rogue 9 wrote:Well I did go ask a Benedictine monk before posting that.
Then I will take your word for it. I never bothered to ask nor did I care to, I just thought that was what was going on. Whenever I go to Mass with my grandmother, I watch most people take the host but not the wine, and no one goes straight for the wine, so I figured the wine was optional and the bread was mandatory.
Well, sucks to be that Jesus cannibal-vampire I suppose. Bloody church, reminds me of the speech the apostle Rufus gives in Dogma about religion being a good idea spoiled by making an incontrovertable belief system out of it.
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Rye wrote:Well, sucks to be that Jesus cannibal-vampire I suppose. Bloody church, reminds me of the speech the apostle Rufus gives in Dogma about religion being a good idea spoiled by making an incontrovertable belief system out of it.
One reason I loved that movie is that they wre basically stating my beliefs a lot of the time. That and it was damn funny.
Love how you refer to catholics, I'm gonna have to call my catholic friends that from now on.
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Cyborg Stan wrote:In my view, simply subsituting or using wine in it's place still doesn't address the fundamental concern - what if someone as allergic to both wheat and grape-derived products?
And I'd still like to see them explain the process used to determine what is and is not suitable for transubstantiation.
These days my understanding is we (Catholics) just try not to think about whether it's actually magically turning into bits of Jesus or whether it's a symbolic stand-in. Hell, I don't even know what the Vatican says these days. I don't think I know anyone who thinks the host (ie wafer) and wine actually turn into bits of Jesus, and that includes several priests.
Just another reason I would not be at all surprised to see the American Roman Catholic Church split off from Rome in our lifetimes.
Howedar wrote:
Just another reason I would not be at all surprised to see the American Roman Catholic Church split off from Rome in our lifetimes.
Just out of curiousity, how would that work? Would that make you Protestants that call yourselves Catholic or something?
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Howedar wrote:
Just another reason I would not be at all surprised to see the American Roman Catholic Church split off from Rome in our lifetimes.
Just out of curiousity, how would that work? Would that make you Protestants that call yourselves Catholic or something?
Like Mel Gibson, you mean?
Man. If there's one thing that would shatter the brethren at the abbey, that would be it. Father Theodore (103 years old, the oldest Benedictine in the world, and remarkably enough still lucid) would freak, along with probably Father Stephen. I actually don't know which way the abbot would swing, mainly because Abbot Lambert is resigning and a new abbot is to be elected in December. No clue who it's going to be.
Howedar wrote:And I'd still like to see them explain the process used to determine what is and is not suitable for transubstantiation.
These days my understanding is we (Catholics) just try not to think about whether it's actually magically turning into bits of Jesus or whether it's a symbolic stand-in. Hell, I don't even know what the Vatican says these days. I don't think I know anyone who thinks the host (ie wafer) and wine actually turn into bits of Jesus, and that includes several priests.[/quote]
It's my understanding that the whole process is supposed to be a rather mysterious thing whereby the bread and wine aren't physically turned into flesh and blood, but something that are in essence flesh and blood. Although it's still technically bread and wine. *head explodes*
I remember from when I still considered myself Catholic and went to weekly classes for this. Transubstantiation is supposed to turn the bread and wine into literal flesh and blood, not in a symbolistic sense.
Howedar wrote:
Just another reason I would not be at all surprised to see the American Roman Catholic Church split off from Rome in our lifetimes.
These orders came from the local diocese though, not the Vatican.
If anything it seems the Church in the US has more problems than the Church elsewhere in the West (I know rice wafers are perfectly acceptable in the UK, but we have a more healthy attitude towards religion overall on both sides of the street, so to speak).
Cyborg Stan wrote:Transubstantiation is supposed to turn the bread and wine into literal flesh and blood, not in a symbolistic sense.
Which makes it even WORSE. Ick.
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www.Skepdic.com has a thing on Transubstantiation if you haven't seen it.
Transubstantiation is the alleged process whereby the bread and wine offered up at the communion service has its substance changed to that of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ while its accidents appear to be that of bread and wine. What looks like, tastes like, etc., bread and wine is actually another substance altogether. How this happens is a mystery and defies logic. How it can happen would require a miracle.
I say poppadoms and lager would help the church greatly in britain.
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This looks to me like the diocee and the parish refuse to change the rules that have been set down by the Vatican on their own initiative, rather than the entire Catholic Church telling a little girl she has to risk her life taking a gleuten communion or risk her soul by not taking communion at all. I don't think anybody had ever heard of celiac sprue disease when they wrote the rules. I'll withhold judgement until I find out what the Vatican has to say.
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Fascinating topic. I read the article in the newspaper over lunch at work the other day, but frankly didn't expect to see a discussion about it here.
I too have an allergy to wheat gluten, though it's not nearly as severe as the one this girl has. Over the years it seems to have lessened to the point where I can take bread communion on occasion without much problem, but for years I've taken only the wine and there is no problem health wise or theologically with this. One "species" (as its referred) of the eucharistic meal is as good as the other. It's nice to take both every single day if you can, but that's merely a formality. It's like praying 5 times a day instead of 4.
The issue over bread vs. wine was supposedly due to fears that people would be too incompetent or sloppy to take care of the wine properly (much greater chance of mishandling). If you have competent staff on hand (eucharistic ministers) this can be avoided. There's also the issue of passing germs along with the drinking cup (chalice) used (they wipe off the rim with a cloth, but of course there's still the possibility of 'backwash'). During the winter months for example, I tend to go for the bread for this reason.
As far as transubstationiation is concerned (or consubstantiation, which is more acceptable a definition for many protestants), it's the mysterious prescense of Christ (being God, he can do amazing things after all) in the bread & wine, so it need not register as anything but bread and wine to anyone doing tests on it in a lab. In the realm of the supernatural (undetectable so far by science, but only by faith) it's all good, so the belief goes.
As far as the wine is concerned, there's the issue of alcoholics. So if a person is unlucky enough to be both deathly allergic to wheat and also an alcoholic who can't have any alcohol, that's where they need to make a dispensation or figure out something to allow the person to participate fully in the faith.
In this girl's case, taking the wine should solve her problem, and any notion that this isn't a "full communion" for her is just being difficult. Theologically there's no problem with this. She can't take the bread, so there's the wine instead.
But, the issue would come up for those who can't take either but still wish to remain Catholic. So that possibility begs that more thought be given the subject by the Vatican leadership.
To add (and you can very well look this up on your own I realize), yes the Eucharist is believed to be a miracle, with the precedent being from Jesus himself.
Transubstantiation is just another step in theological assesment from Consubstantiation. Consub is saying "we know Jesus is really present in the bread & wine, but we're not sure how" (some would say that Jesus's 'spirit' is in it). Transub says that "we can say with confidence that Jesus is there to the degree that it is transformed, on the spiritual level."
I guess it's like the difference between having Neopolitan ice cream and having chocolate, vanilla and strawberry ice cream tossed into a blender and run on high speed until it's all one thing and you can't see the seperation of each individual flavor. <---- my attempt at being a theologian for a second.
