Borg/Species 8472/Empire Debate

[Rightous Fist Of Heaven]

Our information comes from official evidence. Attack Of the Clones: Incredible Cross Sections, derived from that it is easy to determine how powerfull an ISD is using just maths, and note this is a 20 year old TRANSPORT while an ISD is dedicated warship which alone can turn an entire planets crust to molten slag or conduct large scale ground assault operations.

Pg. 23 : Manufacturer: Rothana Heavy Engineering (subsidiary of KDY)
Make: /Acclamator/-class tran-galactic military transport ship
Dimensions: length 752m; width 460m; depth (with landing gear) 200m; depth (in flight) 183m
Max. acceleration (linear, in open space): 3,500 G
Power: main reactor peak 2e23 W; peak shielding 7e22 W
Hyperdrive: class 0.6; range 250,000 light-years fully fueled
Passengers: 16,000 clone troopers and support personnel
Armament: 12 quad turbolaser turrets (200 gigatons per shot); 24 laser cannons (6 megatons per shot); 4 missile/torpedo launch tubes

This is a direct quote from the book. The site which we are talking about is www.stardestroyer.net which's bb this is, the site actually justifies the claims there and it proves them, unlike DITL, DITL is basically just fanfic and the creator does not really want to prove anything by using science or evidence.

[Mr Bean]

Not just here DITL is not exactly popluar with anyone

Course even IT has more Crebility than say... Darkstar

[Vendetta]

Not just here DITL is not exactly popluar with anyone

It's got some quotes from actual canon on it.

And the layout's very good, takes Star Trek's own system of presentation and runs with it.

Most of the actual CONTENT is fanfic, (not just Portal).

[Mr Bean]

The Content not layout is how a site is usaly judged

[Vendetta]

The Content not layout is how a site is usaly judged

And as fanfic, it's better than many of it's ST competitors .

And judging it as a website, presentation is important, because that defines how easy it is to access the content, and establishes a context.

[Shinova]

So, where did DITL get its info?

[Vympel]

If you check his pages- he has the color coded as

- Canon (yellow)
- Backstage Info (green)
- Speculation (white)

Needless to say, the page is very short on yellow and very HIGH on white.


In other words, he merely makes shit up.

Post some new arguments Sovereign ... how boring.

[Shinova]

If you check his pages- he has the color coded as

- Canon (yellow)
- Backstage Info (green)
- Speculation (white)

Needless to say, the page is very short on yellow and very HIGH on white.


In other words, he merely makes shit up.

Post some new arguments Sovereign ... how boring.

Of course, canon is only visual, so one would have to do at least some speculating to derive numbers from visuals.

Just wanted to add that.

[Vendetta]

Of course, canon is only visual, so one would have to do at least some speculating to derive numbers from visuals.

Just wanted to add that.

Yeah, but Kennedy doesn't. He makes the numbers up.

[Mr Bean]

Of course, canon is only visual, so one would have to do at least some speculating to derive numbers from visuals.

Noo.. Thats SCIENCE, If we know A, And Know B, and Have C,D, and E

To calcuate F is it speculation? No

We have an onscreen event(Astriod Vaporzation) we know how much power it takes to Vape those and the most common astroid type out there

Then just to be safe we use the weakest type ever seen, thats not speculation, Its science!

[Ender]

Wher do you get SW info, this site, how does this site get its info? From Cannon SW books?

Bingo Sparky

I do get mine from DITL, but what makes that wrong and this site right?

THe fact that GK makes it up as he goes along?

IN CONTEXT it is a good site. But the context is that h believes thisis what you would see if you went to an actual library if you lived in the Trek universe. This means it has a good grasp on the basics of Trek and in some cases made some probable conclusions, but it is in no way based in the scientific rules that govern reality. IF DITLs explanations then made it onscreen, his explanations would be accepted under Suspension o' Disbelief, but as it stands it is a bunch of horse hockey.

And here is an interesting thing for you:
Take the volume of a borg cube, and assume 90% hollow (95% is the standard I've seen used, but lets go high end here). Now for simplicity, convert it to the volume of a sphere and find the diameter. Plug itinto the asteroid calculator and look at the value of iron (Iron being the basic standard used) for vaporization. Now add on 2.2 GT (What warsies rate borg shields at, which is incidetly higher then what GK rates them at).

You get 40.8GT.
A single LTL is 50GT.
That is right, a Siener partol ship can vaporize a cube with a single shot. And most outerrim systems have a few of those things, or more powerful craft, for basic customs work.

The borg are fucked.

[NecronLord]

Did we mention there's no way the Alliance will discover the wormhole so much sooner then the Empire to trade technology and teach the Feds how to use it/even get them up to the bare minimum tech level to deploy it.

If I give ancient Rome and full schematic and materials for a jet engine, can they build it?

In time probably

remember the competence scale

Aincient Rome
Imperials
>
>
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>
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>
>
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>
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USA
>
Romulans
>
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Klingons
UFP
Darkstar
Borg

[Shinova]

Due to the thread's title, how does S8472 fit into this picture?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I cant help it. Everyone is so eager to claim Star Wars as the winner without real proof. Just a lot of "oh yeah, proove it!" Well, lets get this all figured out, without flaming.

It is the *validity* of the claims that matters. 2+2 equals 4 without flaming. 2+2 STILL equals 4 WITH flaming. Are you resorting to style over substance fallacy?

"Everyone is so eager to claim Star Wars as the winner without real proof." WITHOUT real proof? No shit, sherlock. So Death Star is not real proof, vaporized asteroids in TESB is not real proof, and hyperdrive is not a real proof either, eh?

BTW, burden of proof falls on you since it was YOU who came up with this arguments on the first place.

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Well, we now have an Alliance of The Rebels, Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Breen, Dominion, Cardassian, and so on. Every species in this alliance has its own tribute. The Rebels giving the most, Hyperdrive, Proton Torpedoes, etc. The ST universe on the other hand has something to give as well.

Could you point me in which episode(s) all those Star Trek races allying themselves instead of fighting with each other? Oh, waddaminute. It NEVER happened, did it?

Ablative armour was originally developed for the USS Defiant; the Borg had proven their ability to penetrate Federation shields with ease during their encounter with the Enterprise at system J-25, and the Defiant designers wanted the ship to have a degree of protection even if the shields should be overcome in the expected future encounters.
The value of the armour was proven when the Defiant came up against Dominion forces. Like the Borg, the Dominion were able to penetrate Federation shielding systems relatively easily in the first years of hostility between the two powers, and the Defiant's ablative armour allowed the ship to withstand attacks that would have otherwise caused significant damage.

Recently there has been a massive revolution in this technology with the appearance of the ablative armour generator. This device was given to the crew of the USS Voyager by a future version of Admiral Janeway, who travelled back in time to the ship in order to assist them in returning home from the Delta Quadrant. The generator involves a series of devices placed onto the hull of a vessel; when activated these replicate a layer of armour over the surface of the ship. The effectiveness of armour is considerable. The system Voyager employed was able to withstand a simultaneous attack by several Borg cubes. One of the most useful features of this system is that as it can be materialised and dematerialised as needed, even weapons systems can be covered over when they are not actually in use. This gives a much greater degree of coverage than any standard armour protection which must leave permanent apetures to operate such systems through.

At time of writing Starfleet had had relatively little time to asses this technology, but the ease with which it was adapted for use on Voyager without spacedock or any outside support indicates that it should be reasonably easy for the remainder of Starfleet's ships to create ablative armour generators for themselves. This should multiply the hull strength of the fleet massively at a single stroke.

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Dominion ships all appear to use the phased polaron beam as their primary weaponry, and this gave them a heavy advantage in early conflicts with Federation forces. The destruction of the USS Odyssey prompted an intense flurry of activity on many fronts within Starfleet. Ship production was ramped to a maximum and starship designs were altered to increase their combat effectiveness, while the academy training program was speeded up massively to provide crews for the new ships. By themselves, however, these projects would be of little use so long as the Dominion was able to defeat Federation ships so easily.
Perhaps the most important project the Federation embarked on was that of shield enhancement. Between 2371 and 2373 the Federation put huge emphasis on the development of new shield technology. The capture of a Dominion vessel in 2373 gave the Federation an operational Dominion weapons system. This proved to be a crucial step towards the development of an effective polaron shield.

The first real test of the system came at the end of 2373, when the Dominion launched an all out attack on Deep Space Nine. The stations shields proved to be highly effective, holding off the fleet and allowing the station to destroy over fifty enemy ships. Federation ships and stations continued to be resistant to Dominion weaponry for the remainder of the war

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Banned by many Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers in the Second Khitomer Accords, these weapons are among the most dangerous ever conceived. The Accords compel all signatory governments to make all possible efforts to restrict the proliferation of subspace weapons, including restrictions on access to sensitive records; as a result information concerning them tends to be very hard to come by.

In the Federation, subspace weapons were first proposed in the 2330's. A low level research project was initiated, and when the researchers began achieving promising results the pace of development was stepped up in 2339. In the late 2330's and early 2340's relations with the Klingon Empire deteriorated significantly, to the point where it was widely predicted that war was imminent. The Federation Council pushed for a test weapon as soon as possible, and by 2343 a device was ready for detonation. The Federation's first subspace weapon was detonated by the Excelsior class USS T'Plek in the Sigma 387 system on Stardate 21347.8.

The weapon was an Isolitic device; many records have still not been made public, but from what has been published it appears that the subspace warhead was composed of a large matter-antimatter charge surrounded by a set of concentric shells composed of Verterium Cortenide and Tungsten-Cobalt-Magnsium. The same material as used in standard warp coils, these converted a large part of the detonation into a pulse of subspace radiation which would be of sufficient magnitude to cause a sympathetic detonation within the nacelles of any Starship within one light second. Such an secondary explosion would release more than enough energy to destroy the ship, while the subspace effect would be virtually unaffected by most known forms of shielding. Starfleet expected this weapon to boost the combat effectiveness of its Starships by at least an order of magnitude.

However, the Isolitic burst did not perform as predicted. Early in the project the development team had worried that such a large release of subspace energy would breach the space / subspace barrier, causing a tear which would allow the two sides to come into contact. Extensive research was conducted in order to determine the likelihood of this type of rift, and after considerable experimentation combined with theoretical models it was finally determined that the barrier between space and subspace was virtually impossible to breach using this form of weapon. Unfortunately, the test weapon detonated by the T'Plek formed a subspace tear immediately; the tear quickly began to spread across space towards the T'Plek.

The T'Plek attempted to evade and retreat at impulse speed, but the tear rapidly closed the distance; Captain Senak initiated warp drive to clear the area. The instant the warp drive was engaged the tear virtually exploded towards the T'Plek, enveloping and destroying the ship with all hands still aboard. Subsequent analysis indicated that the effect was attracted to the residual subspace radiation within the T'Pleks warp core and nacelles. With the strength of the attraction proportional to the intensity of the radiation, the T'Plek had done the worst possible thing by going to warp; the fully active warp core had dragged the tear across space at an estimated Warp 9.9992, almost equal to subspace radio speeds.

Despite the loss, Starfleet continued with its research throughout 2343. However, the weapon effects quickly proved themselves to be hugely unpredictable. Less than 5% of the devices tested performed as intended; some 60% simply exploded in a near normal matter/antimatter reaction, with no apparent subspace effect at all. The remaining 35% caused subspace tears which would then expand rapidly towards a nearby source of subspace energy. Even this effect was unpredictable; the research teams took to positioning large subspace radiation generators near the test areas in order to attract any subspace tear away from monitoring vessels. Despite these precautions, the USS Armin was almost lost when a tear headed for it rather than the decoys. Only the Captains quick thinking in jettisoning both warp core and nacelles saved the ship from destruction. For subsequent tests purpose built monitors were provided which contained no subspace technology at all.

After the loss of the Enterprise-C at Narendra III in 2344, tensions with the Klingons eased considerably. The second Khitomer conference was held in this year; at the arms control talks the Klingons announced that they, too, had been developing Isolitic subspace weapons - also with very limited success. It was agreed that these devices were simply too unpredictable for either side to employ, and production and deployment of these weapons was outlawed by the Second Khitomer Accords. Although initially applying only to the Federation and Klingons, virtually all other Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers have since signed up to this particular provision. Among several notable exceptions are the Son'a, an offshoot of the Ba'ku species who were reported to have fitted their warship fleet with subspace weapons. This was confirmed when a Son'a vessel fired an Isolitic burst at the Enterprise-E in 2375; a subspace tear was formed which headed directly towards the Enterprise. This ship was already suffering from battle damage at the time, and was unable to manoeuvre well as the battle was fought within a large set of anomalies known as the "Briar Patch" - not that being in open space would have made a great deal of difference...

In the event, the crew ejected the ships warp core and detonated it inside the tear. This tactic had been suggested during the Federations research program, but the unpredictability of these weapons made the theory tenuous at best and no ship had the opportunity to test the idea out. Fortunately for the Enterprise, the tactic worked on this occasion and the ship was subsequently able to use the "Riker Manoeuvre" to defeat the Son'a ships.

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Like the ablative armour, the transphasic torpedoes were given to Voyager's crew by a future version of the ship's own captain. Even though the ship lacked any access to a spacedock or outside support of any kind, it was still a relatively quick proceducre to prepare the weapons systems for these devices. At time of writing Starfleet has had little chance to asses the technology, but Voyager used several of them during its battles with the Borg when returning to Earth and they were massively effective on this occasion. Voyager was able to destroy a Borg cube with two hits, and a second with only a single hit.
Starfleet is sure to conduct a rapid assessment of these weapons, and it is highly likely that they will make a fleetwide deployment of them in the near future. It seems certain that this will result in a massive increase in the offensive firepower of all torpedo-equipped vessels. Given that the ablative armour generator technology is also likely to spread through the fleet shortly, it seems that Starfleet will shortly eclipse all of its competitors in military strength.

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The trilithium torpedo was created by Doctor Tolian Soran, an El Aurian scientist who had an encounter with the Nexus in 2293. Soran searched for a safe method of re-entering the Nexus for decades; eventually he hit upon the idea of altering its course to bring it close to a planetary surface. This would allow him to wait on the planet in safety. In order to alter the course of the Nexus, Doctor Soran needed to significantly alter the mass of stars at certain points close to its course. The trilithium torpedo was his solution to this problem.
Precise details of the trilithium weapon are uncertain, but members of the Enterprise-D crew were able to scan a torpedo at close range. Subsequently the ship was able to record detailed sensor information when the Amargosa system was destroyed by Doctor Soran. Those records indicate that the torpedo initially causes a massive flare-up in the stars output. This initial burn lasts for some seven seconds, and consumes approximately 23% of the mass of the star - sufficient to significantly alter the gravitational forces in the region. As a secondary effect the detonation releases some 4.2 x 1046 Joules, producing a shock wave more than powerful enough to destroy everything in the solar system.

Immediately subsequent to the primary energy release, a quantum implosion occurs within the star. This causes a very rapid breakdown in all remaining fusion processes; starved of the thermal pressure that normally holds a star inflated, the remnants of the Amargosa star collapsed under their own weight into a black dwarf.

Doctor Soran attempted to launch a further weapon at the Veridian sun, but was prevented in doing so by two Starfleet officers. This weapon was destroyed together with all of its supporting facilities when it exploded on launching.

The Federation has classified its information concerning trilithium weapons and outlawed any attempt at production, in line with the laws against the production and use of weapons of mass destruction. However, it is likely that detailed research is proceeding and it is conceivable that Starfleet will eventually be allowed to add trilithium weapons to its fleet should the Dominion war require it.

Impressive. A long-winded essay about how powerful exotic Trek technology relative to mundane Trek tech. Too bad it never explain about how they will stand against Star Wars technology. So what's the point???

[His Divine Shadow]

If you check his pages- he has the color coded as

- Canon (yellow)
- Backstage Info (green)
- Speculation (white)

He lists laser invulnerability as canon

[Vympel]

If you check his pages- he has the color coded as

- Canon (yellow)
- Backstage Info (green)
- Speculation (white)

He lists laser invulnerability as canon

What a moron ... this from a school teacher

[Zoink]

If you check his pages- he has the color coded as

- Canon (yellow)
- Backstage Info (green)
- Speculation (white)

He lists laser invulnerability as canon

That's just sad. The borg cutting beam is a laser (canon).

[Sovereign]

A Star Wars Laser is really a form of Plasma Technology, I forget which Novel explained it, but to a Star Trek Ship it would be very powerful and would take out a ships shields with no problem. This happened during the Dominion Wars when the Cardassians deployed defence platforms that used Plasma Weapons. The Allies lost lots of ships to these. Now this still does not make a ISD invincible to Allied fire power. Small Ships like to Defiant Class could and would dodge almost any ISD attack. It takes a lot of energy to power an ISDs shields this is why they do not have both of them (energy/physical shields) on at the same time. This would allow a sneak attack to damage an ISD. If the Rebels joined with the Allies, and they would, it would mean that ST ships would be upgraded for Hyperspace. This could be easy to do since all they would have to do is change from ant-matter to hyper matter.

An alliance of all the ST species could happen. The Federation, Klingons, and Romulans were mortal enemies for almost 200 years, 2151-2369, and they joined against the Dominion. With the Cardassians crippled, they will join the Allies. The Gorn are allies to the feds. The Tholians Would help out the Feds. The Dominion would also help out since they would be next in line for invasion. Can anbody find anything wrong with this? I want to figure this out in a common sence fasion.

[Cpt_Frank]

Hey we've got a new trekkie idiot here! Now the SWvsST section doesn't have to degenerate in a forum of pro-wars people debating if 1 hit kill SW weapons exceed ST shield limits by a factor of 400 or 400000!
Three cheers for Sovereign!

[His Divine Shadow]

A Star Wars laser is not a form of plasma tech at all, it is a form of EM energy that can be fired at variable velocities from 0 to 300.000km/s

A defiant cannot evade almost any attack, thats a poorly thought out tactic, there are over a hundred light turbolasers on an ISD with refire rates of several shots a second, they could buffet an area making it impossible for the defiant to dodge, they need only fire a small amount of TL's for that too, and they can set the bolt speed to high since it doesn't matter against ST shields.

As for sneak attacks, not going to happen with realspace FTL that shines up a ship like a lightbulb in a dark room, only with hyperspace tech would that work.

As for the rebels joining the UFP, hardly of any consequence, assuming they will be alive by that time.

Now this is something that made me cry when I read it, WTF did you get the idea it's just to replace this and that and that because they use anti-matter they can use hypermatter?!?!"?"¤?"%#¤"&?¤y25365958142!!!!!!!!!!


ARGH! The ignorance in that statement, have you no knowledge of engineering? You think you could just strap a 747 jet engine to a horse for example? They are lightyears apart, and not even based on the same principles.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Imperial warships maintain particle/ray shielding at all times. The ISD guns can track and fire on ships several light-seconds away under standard battle conditions.

The Defiant would be blasted to hell with one light turbolaser blast.


The 128 Megaton yield of the Quantum Trops means it'd take hundreds of thousands of Quantum Torps to outright destroy an ISD. Does you Defiant have those? Can it get close enough without being vaped?

No. The Defiant fires a torp, the ISD shrugs it off effortlessly, ISD light turbolaser blows Defiant to shreds with one hit.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Antimatter and hypermatter are not interchangable in Trek Warp Cores. I cannot stress this enough. The ignorance in that suggestion is staggering.

Trek is at the level of tech SW was at 25,000 years before the movies take place in the chronology. They refer to how subspace tech was used by these primitive, pre-hyperdrive, pre-Republic interstellar civilizations.

Again, if I give all the neccessary plans and lists for neccessary materials (alloys, composites, etc) and their composition, etc, could the Romans build a jet engine?

No. They lack the technology to make the fuel, make the structure, make any of the basic components, much less put it together. It'd take years and Rebel engineers personally working on the problem to develop hyperdrives toned down and Trek ships toned up enough to use even a primitive form of the drive. Trek ships don't have the power to even supply a hyperdrive if one was simply installed somewhere on a Trek ship.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Lastly, the reason Imperial tech is invulnerable to "Allied" Trek firepower is because the Trek weapons are simply too weak. They don't have enough raw power.

[Master of Ossus]

Wher do you get SW info, this site, how does this site get its info? From Cannon SW books? I do get mine from DITL, but what makes that wrong and this site right?

Oh, great. I leave for a couple of days and when I come back there's a moronic trekkie who has absolutely NO clue what's going on.

Graham Kennedy produces no reasoning or math of any kind to back up his figures. He just presents an outlandish number that is contradicted by any number of incidents and posts it on his site. Mike Wong does not do that. Graham Kennedy's site is totally wrong in multiple areas. Mike Wong's site is accurate in the vast majority of areas that it covers. We do not draw our SW information STRICTLY from Mike's site. Rather, we look at what Mike posts on his site and then examine his reasoning and methods to ensure that it makes sense. You blindly follow GK's stupid and uninformed lead. If your information is wrong, of course your results are very likely to be incorrect as well. Why don't you learn something about the two universes and then come back and debate.

[Master of Ossus]

I cant help it. Everyone is so eager to claim Star Wars as the winner without real proof. Just a lot of "oh yeah, proove it!" Well, lets get this all figured out, without flaming.
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Well, we now have an Alliance of The Rebels, Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Breen, Dominion, Cardassian, and so on. Every species in this alliance has its own tribute. The Rebels giving the most, Hyperdrive, Proton Torpedoes, etc. The ST universe on the other hand has something to give as well.

Sorry, everyone. I went back and read the thread. This is so stupid it simply MUST be addressed.

Why do the ST sides HAVE to have "something to give as well?" Their technology is so far inferior in almost all military respects that they likely have virtually no military technology that the rebels would need or even find useful. One of the reasons I find this guy so annoying is that he dismisses Mike's site without reading it or finding any flaws in its work. This is almost invariably the first response of rabid trekkies. They decide they don't have to read Mike's site to debate here, but they come back and say that ST would win easily because they say it would. This bothers me to no end. The reason why we don't, generally, state why Imperial technology is almost certainly better in most respects than UFP technology is that there is so much evidence that it is, and generally it takes much longer to post it than it would for a Trekkie to simply read the site, where everything is already posted in an easy-to-read format. The fact that they come here to us demanding proof is highly irritating because it implies strongly that they feel their view point is justified unless we spell out to them what aspects they are incorrect in.