5.56 NATO Showing Insufficient Lethality in Iraq

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

At a Vietnam Special Forces base during 1964, I watched a U. S. soldier fire 15 rounds of .223 caliber ammunition into a tethered goat from an AR-15 rifle; moments after the last round hit, the goat fell over. Looking at the dead goat, I saw many little bullet entry-holes on one side; and when we turned him over, I saw many little bullet exit-holes on the other side. Over time, those observations were confirmed and reconfirmed, revealing that the stories we were told on the lethality of the .223 caliber cartridge were fabrications. Those false reports drove the adoption of the .223 caliber cartridge as the 5.56mm NATO cartridge and, ever since, Americans have been sent to war with a cartridge deficient in combat lethality; a deficiency that has recently caused the deaths of U.S. soldiers in Iraq.

Time to start looking for a new caliber, preferably one that can be used in the same STANAG mags currently in use...

[Chardok]

I'll say it again, people. 5.56 is a good round. a great round. For armor piercing, and wounding. (It may be based on an old doctrine, but shooting a guy and not killing him is, Many time, More effective than killing him. Who is going to leave a wounded and screaming comrade? Yeah, they'll leave one whose already been martyred, but wounded? Hmm..

Plus the round is fast, and accurate out to 10 bazillion meters. It ain't going anytime soon. complaints will cease when the DoD fields more weapons WITH MY PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSS 7.62 ROUNDS!!! YESSSSSSSS PRECCCCIOUSSSSSSSSS YESSSSSSSSSS

TRICKSY M4's! FALSE!! WE KILL THEM WITH THE M-60!!!!

*FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP*

Oh...sorry when that happens...only pay attention to the first part, the second part is just my fanwhore fappilizing.

[MKSheppard]

ALL HAIL THE M-240G

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Wau d00ds...





How yall feel about the 6.8mm SPC as a replacement round for the Five Fifty Six?

[Rogue 9]

Well think about it, Ein. Ever read The Krytos Trap, X-Wing series by Stackpole? Same principle. If they die, the enemy has a funeral and it's over. If they're wounded and in need of medical attention, the enemy must expend resources giving them said medical attention. Sure, there's the off chance that survivors will eventually get patched up to full health and return to the field, but which is more costly to the enemy? A funeral, or an extended hospital stay for multiple entry and exit wounds?

[MKSheppard]

ALL HAIL THE 240 GOLF! 7.62mm boogers of death!

Booger booger!

[MKSheppard]

Well think about it, Ein. Ever read The Krytos Trap, X-Wing series by Stackpole? Same principle. If they die, the enemy has a funeral and it's over. If they're wounded and in need of medical attention, the enemy must expend resources giving them said medical attention. Sure, there's the off chance that survivors will eventually get patched up to full health and return to the field, but which is more costly to the enemy? A funeral, or an extended hospital stay for multiple entry and exit wounds?

That's only an issue in a lengthy campaign.

If they are DEAD they cannot pull a trigger. In the kind of urban combat
US forces are going to be facing in the future, enemies cannot
be propped up against walls to fire AK-47s before they expire of their
wounds.

[Chardok]

How yall feel about the 6.8mm SPC as a replacement round for the Five Fifty Six?

Goddammit, Ein, nowhere in that sentence was the number 7.62!

Honestly, though, I really can't speak for the 6.8 having not seen/used it. Perhaps Vympel or Sea Skimmer knows more. But being the rabid fanwhore that I am, I won't be converted until I see the shit being used.

[Perinquus]

I'll say it again, people. 5.56 is a good round. a great round.

Since they are experiencing numerous failures to stop enemy soldiers, I would have to say it is not, in fact, a great round. A round that does not reliably put the enemy down cannot be called a great round.

For armor piercing, and wounding. (It may be based on an old doctrine, but shooting a guy and not killing him is, Many time, More effective than killing him. Who is going to leave a wounded and screaming comrade? Yeah, they'll leave one whose already been martyred, but wounded? Hmm..

This doctrine is falling increasingly out of favor, and for a very good reason: you may wound an adversary with every shot, but not wound him sufficiently to render him incapable of further combat. This is, in fact, what has been happening over and over and over again in Afghanistan and Iraq. Enemies are taking multiple hits, and they keep fighting. An enemy with a bullet in his guts may still be entirely capable of pulling the trigger on an AK47, or RPG, and it doesn't do you much good if he dies later, or needs the aid of a buddy to get back to a safe place for treatment when his bullets or rocket propelled grenades take your life.

Plus the round is fast, and accurate out to 10 bazillion meters. It ain't going anytime soon. complaints will cease when the DoD fields more weapons WITH MY PRECIOUSSSSSSSSSSS 7.62 ROUNDS!!! YESSSSSSSS PRECCCCIOUSSSSSSSSS YESSSSSSSSSS

7.62mm is fine for sniper rifles and medium machine guns. It's too powerful for an assault rifle, as the round has too much recoil to be controllable on full auto. This is why US M14s, and British L1A1s had their selective fire capability removed, and were permanently set to fire semi-auto only.

The new 6.8mm round may offer the best compromise, and finally give the troops an assault rifle with a powerful enough round, but not an overpowerful one.

TRICKSY M4's! FALSE!! WE KILL THEM WITH THE M-60!!!!

*FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP*

Oh...sorry when that happens...only pay attention to the first part, the second part is just my fanwhore fappilizing.

We don't use M60s anymore. They've been replaced with the M240, which is a far more reliable weapon.

[aerius]

There's always tradeoffs. A 5.56 has less stopping power but it's lighter & smaller so a soldier can carry a crapload of rounds, bigger rounds kill better but you can't carry as many, and they're also harder to control on full auto. Maybe the Vietnam era "tumble & fragment" 5.56 is what we need, I don't know, I'm not a gun expert.

[MKSheppard]

This doctrine is falling increasingly out of favor, and for a very good reason: you may wound an adversary with every shot, but not wound him sufficiently to render him incapable of further combat. This is, in fact, what has been happening over and over and over again in Afghanistan and Iraq. Enemies are taking multiple hits, and they keep fighting. An enemy with a bullet in his guts may still be entirely capable of pulling the trigger on an AK47, or RPG, and it doesn't do you much good if he dies later, or needs the aid of a buddy to get back to a safe place for treatment when his bullets or rocket propelled grenades take your life.

DING DING DING DING

We have a winnar!

Precisely that. While the doctrine of wounding an enemy may make sense
to a BEANCOUNTER, it makes absolutely no sense at all to the guy on the
frontline, as a wounded enemy can still KILL HIM.

Ideally, we'd all be walking around with recoilless 20mm cannons on
our shoulders for insta-kills, but that's not feasibul, and 5.56mm is showing
that it just isn't powerful enough to insure incapication reliably enough.

[Chardok]

We don't use M60s anymore. They've been replaced with the M240, which is a far more reliable weapon.

Chardok knows all these things. Chardok knows about the 240 B and bloody G. Chardok will never be weaned off of the M-60. Chardok had his '60 taken away and replaced with a 249. Chardok is not happeh.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I thought Vympel had a military study which showed that the rumors of 5.56 low-lethality were largely mythical.

[Alyeska]

The answer is very simple. Equip holowpoint rounds. The recognized former government of Iraq is overthrown. Effectively the US is fighting an insurgent and terrorist force. Geneva convention is thrown out the window. Holowpoint rounds with 5.56mm weapons work wonders and is a hell of a lot more inexpensive then most other options.

[Perinquus]

I thought Vympel had a military study which showed that the rumors of 5.56 low-lethality were largely mythical.

In Vietnam it performed well. But there were factors mitigating in its favor there.

1) That was the older, M192 ball, with a slower rifling twist. It had more tendency to tumble when it hit (and hence, inflicted more severe wounds), but less armor pentration.

2) In Vietnam, most buildings were of light wood and bamboo construction, so fighting in twons and villages provided less cover than mud brick buildings in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Somalia.

3) Body armor was little, if any used among the North Vietnamese, and even if a ballistic vest doesn't completely stop a bullet, it can reduce its lethality by absorbing much of its kinetic energy.

Back then, the 5.56mm performed adequately, now it is not doing so, and numerous reports coming back from the soldiers on the ground are confirming this.

[Veramocor]

What size bullets can todays cermaic body armour/kevlar vests stop?

[Illuminatus Primus]

He was not referencing a study from the '60's on M192, Christ. It was from Operation IRAQI FREEDOM.

[Jalinth]

The answer is very simple. Equip holowpoint rounds. The recognized former government of Iraq is overthrown. Effectively the US is fighting an insurgent and terrorist force. Geneva convention is thrown out the window. Holowpoint rounds with 5.56mm weapons work wonders and is a hell of a lot more inexpensive then most other options.

How is the Geneva convention out the window? It has parts designed expressly to deal with occupying powers and insurgents - what is an enemy combatant, what is an illegal combatant, what is a spy, etc...

Insurgent forces are fine under the convention - they are expressly allowed as long as certain rules are followed. Terrorists are not. Also, would Americans complain if the insurgents also use hollowpoints or other "forbidden" weapons? Likely yes.

[Alyeska]

The answer is very simple. Equip holowpoint rounds. The recognized former government of Iraq is overthrown. Effectively the US is fighting an insurgent and terrorist force. Geneva convention is thrown out the window. Holowpoint rounds with 5.56mm weapons work wonders and is a hell of a lot more inexpensive then most other options.

How is the Geneva convention out the window? It has parts designed expressly to deal with occupying powers and insurgents - what is an enemy combatant, what is an illegal combatant, what is a spy, etc...

Insurgent forces are fine under the convention - they are expressly allowed as long as certain rules are followed. Terrorists are not. Also, would Americans complain if the insurgents also use hollowpoints or other "forbidden" weapons? Likely yes.

Iraq already has a government and as such hollowpoints can be used as a police action, just like they are used in the US.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

This doctrine is falling increasingly out of favor, and for a very good reason: you may wound an adversary with every shot, but not wound him sufficiently to render him incapable of further combat. This is, in fact, what has been happening over and over and over again in Afghanistan and Iraq. Enemies are taking multiple hits, and they keep fighting. An enemy with a bullet in his guts may still be entirely capable of pulling the trigger on an AK47, or RPG, and it doesn't do you much good if he dies later, or needs the aid of a buddy to get back to a safe place for treatment when his bullets or rocket propelled grenades take your life.

DING DING DING DING

We have a winnar!

Precisely that. While the doctrine of wounding an enemy may make sense
to a BEANCOUNTER, it makes absolutely no sense at all to the guy on the
frontline, as a wounded enemy can still KILL HIM.

Ideally, we'd all be walking around with recoilless 20mm cannons on
our shoulders for insta-kills, but that's not feasibul, and 5.56mm is showing
that it just isn't powerful enough to insure incapication reliably enough.

Adopt 7.62x39!

[Ma Deuce]

Maybe the Vietnam era "tumble & fragment" 5.56 is what we need, I don't know, I'm not a gun expert.

Yes, that's exactly what we need: The newer 62 grain rounds (combined with the tighter 1 in 7 rifling twist) were only adopted in the early '80s to give 5.56mm weapons better penetration, and thus make them more effective against armor-clad Soviet infantry. Trouble is, when you make a bullet more effective at penetrating armor, you decrease it's stopping power, because it transfers less of it's kinetic energy into whatever it hits. Since almost none of the enemies US troops are fighting these days wear body armor, the old 55 grain cartridges combined with a looser rifling twist (1 in 12, like the M16A1) seems the more logical choice.

[Perinquus]

He was not referencing a study from the '60's on M192, Christ. It was from Operation IRAQI FREEDOM.

I'll take the word of soldiers on the ground, especially the Delta Force and SF guys, who have experienced so many failures to stop that they have taken to using 77 grain Sierra Match King bullets, rather than the issue 62 grain bullets, and who also, in consequence of these failures to stop, themselves undertook to develop the 6.8mm SPC cartridge, in cooperation with Remington. I'm pretty sure these failures to stop are not all in their heads, or they wouldn't have taken these actions.

[Perinquus]

Adopt 7.62x39!

Doesn't do well enough at longer ranges. The 6.8mm SPC looks like it may actually have better terminal ballistics as well as better long range performance, and still be at least as controllable in a full auto weapon. Time will tell though.

[darthdavid]

Hollow out the bullets and put a small magnetic buble filled with anti-matter that's designed to collapse when it hits a target inside. That will fix the lethality issue...

[Ma Deuce]

ALL HAIL THE 240 GOLF! 7.62mm boogers of death!

Booger booger!

Shep, the it's actually the MG3 that totally rules, what with being able to spit out 1,200 7.62mm rounds a minute . To add to the MG3's uberness, it's identical to the legendary MG42 in every way except caliber...