Church won't waiver over wafer

[Ender]

Actually, from my understanding of being raised Catholic, you HAVE to take the wafer, but the wine is optional. Maybe it's just a misunderstanding on my part, but that's have I've always seen it. They made it seem like you can't have the wine unless you get the bread. Don't ask me. I always thought it was BS, but it was force-fed to me having gone to Catholic School all my life.

Infact, I still go to a Catholic highschool (oddly enough named simply "Catholic High School") and the subject was brought up in the Religion class, and even the teacher thought the fact that they aren't validating this little girl's first communion is bullshit.

Only requirement is one of the other once a year at Lent (preferable Easter Sunday itself)

[Ender]

You were mistaken. They give only the bread to those under the drinking age whose parents object to giving the children alcohol. The wine by itself does just as well for the Church's purpose as the bread by itself.

Maybe its different from church to church, but when I was an alterboy, we didn't use wine, we used that "sparkling grape juice" from Sam's Club. Then we watered it down.

[Ender]

Just another reason I would not be at all surprised to see the American Roman Catholic Church split off from Rome in our lifetimes.

Just out of curiousity, how would that work? Would that make you Protestants that call yourselves Catholic or something?

Not sure, I think it would be similar to the Eastern Orthodox church, or the group that split after Vat 2 (I think they call themselves "traditionalists" or something; basically they are the church prior to the changes of Vatican 2)

[Rogue 9]

You were mistaken. They give only the bread to those under the drinking age whose parents object to giving the children alcohol. The wine by itself does just as well for the Church's purpose as the bread by itself.

Maybe its different from church to church, but when I was an alterboy, we didn't use wine, we used that "sparkling grape juice" from Sam's Club. Then we watered it down.

*Chuckle* I'm a Methodist. That's all anyone uses in my church, since we're not supposed to drink. But they use the wine exclusively at the Catholic churches here...

[Kurgan]

At a Mormon church I visited they used water (yes, actual water, not even grape juice), but then, that's the Mormon church (I hear the Reorganized LDS church may use grape juice, but I don't have confirmation about this).

Needless to say, different beliefs about what the Eucharist is, thus different practices.

[Zoink]

Yes, because it's their own fault for having beliefs different from yours, those dirty heathen christians. You should go bomb their homes or something.

They are responsible choosing their religion. Are you saying they're not? I don't really know what you're saying since all you did was imply I hate Christians simply because I think their belief system is wrong... which I find kind of hypocritical since this entire thread is about how their wafer policy is stupid...

The Catholic religion is full of irrational traditions. The fact an individual is having difficulty with a particular tradition is not exactly a new development: gay members, condoms, etc, etc. This is why the Protestant church was formed. A bunch of people who finally took responsibility and formed their own church, instead of whining about how the one they're in doesn't reflect their desires/beliefs.

It's not the place of myself (as a non-Catholic) or the government to tell the Catholic church to change their wafer policy. I think its irrational (as I do their entire belief system) and it'd be rather pointless of me to criticize a particular minor detail such as wafers, while ignoring the fact I think they should change their entire outlook on life. That's what I'm getting at.

As to you implication that stating a non-Christian viewpoint equates to hate-mongering or house-bombing::: FUCK YOU. Here's a NEWSFLASH for you: Non-Christians generally disagree with Christian belief, as Christian do for other religions.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I remember from when I still considered myself Catholic and went to weekly classes for this. Transubstantiation is supposed to turn the bread and wine into literal flesh and blood, not in a symbolistic sense.

Does the wine clot?

[Kurgan]

Barring a few alleged "bleeding host miracles" (which are not officially recognized by the RCC to my knowledge), no.

The wine, to all human appearances is just ordinary grape wine. The bread is just ordinary wheat wafers.

The "change" is in the realm of the spirit, wherein it is believed that Jesus's actual body, soul, and divinity reside, allowing his followers to become united with him in a true sense, per the statements in the New Testament about "eating my flesh" and "drinking my blood" etc.

Regarded as a sacrament, it is an "outward sign" of an inner conveyance of divine grace. Thus, it's an "aide" to help human beings become closer to God.

To a non-believer, it obviously makes no sense, but then such a person wouldn't be in the situation of this family or other individuals like them in the first place, not caring about rituals of this sort.

Hopefully the church leaders will see reason and offer a dispensation or work out a compromise.

The real problem is that some churches are negligent in their duty to provide both "species" of the eucharistic sacrament (or not providing enough wine, etc.) every mass to all present.

[Falkenhayn]

If the family wants to blame someone for the 'hardship' they are having now, they should blame themselves. Choosing an irrational belief system as your modus operandi may lead to dilemmas being resolved irrationally

.

Yes cock. I'm sure not a day goes by where the family dosen't kick themselves for giving their child an allergic reaction to gleuten.

If their parish won't do it, another will.

Mine for example. Father Tony Diacetis, who recenlty recieved a pamphlet of new regulations from the Diocese of Albany. After reading them aloud, he declared to our packed congregation that "Tradition will prevail." In other words, Fuck you Bishop Hubbard.

He then declared that he was off to NYC to "protect the protestors." He's a chaplain in the NYNG.

And therin lies the fun with Catholicism. There are churches nearby that still celebrate Mass in Latin, Ukrainian and Polish, complete with Deacons, bells, full procession and robed altar boys, and my Church, where Right To Life collection plates would be better used as ash trays and Canon Laws are more polite suggestions rather than rules. Yet all these congregations are packed to standing room every Sunday.

Catholicism is a very rational belief system. One of those Sacraments that you Atheist and Protestant Fundies love to deride, is Confirmation.

At Confirmation, YOU, and YOU ALONE, decide whether or not you wish to remain in the Church, a decision that they spring on you around the age of 17, which I think we can all agree upons as an age where you are more than able to make up your own mind.

Now you can make a big statement and say NO, like a third of my confirmation class did, and they sent us home that very night with more grief than reprimand.

I ended up getting confirmed because I figure the Church will always be there, the same Mass I remember, and there is a parish somewhere that will fit me regardless of my politics or ethics.

Then again, with all this talke you do about "Irrational" acts and thought processes, you've probably got some crusty pictures of Leonard Nemoy tucked under your bed don't you?

[SyntaxVorlon]

Did you just call atheists, fundies?
Maybe I haven't heard much anti-Catholic, "those catholics and their silly 'confirmation'" said the atheist, rhetoric, because my mother is an ex-Cath, but I doubt it exists in other atheist circles.

Catholicism is a very rational belief system.

You lack support showing this as I have seen nowhere in your post evidence that Catholicism is based on objectivity. Catholicism, like any religion or religious sect, is based on a certain doctrine of faith. It is no more rational than Greek Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, Sunni, Sikh, or otherwise. The PEOPLE can be more rational, and I would suggest that as an alternative. But then many catholics, you have to admit, aren't rational in the least.

[Joe]

At Confirmation, YOU, and YOU ALONE, decide whether or not you wish to remain in the Church, a decision that they spring on you around the age of 17, which I think we can all agree upons as an age where you are more than able to make up your own mind.

17? Fuck, I was confirmed at the age of 13 and I didn't really know what I was doing. I just did it for the presents.

[Rogue 9]

I wouldn't ride on Protestants too hard. Around here, allies are few and far between for people who make posts like that, and I'm disinclined to be one after that little remark...

[Falkenhayn]

Did you just call atheists, fundies?
Maybe I haven't heard much anti-Catholic, "those catholics and their silly 'confirmation'" said the atheist, rhetoric, because my mother is an ex-Cath, but I doubt it exists in other atheist circles.

Catholicism is a very rational belief system.

You lack support showing this as I have seen nowhere in your post evidence that Catholicism is based on objectivity. Catholicism, like any religion or religious sect, is based on a certain doctrine of faith. It is no more rational than Greek Orthodox, Baptist, Methodist, Sunni, Sikh, or otherwise. The PEOPLE can be more rational, and I would suggest that as an alternative. But then many catholics, you have to admit, aren't rational in the least.

I wasn't basing in on objectivity, but on the influence the beliefs of the humble parish priest can have on his communicants. Rational in that there is room for a variety of ethical credos and the parishes to support them. Whether this was planned or not is incredibly dubious, but it appears to be how the system works.

And yes, I did. Fundamentalism, which I may, incorrectly, be using as a substitute for fantacism, transcends belief systems.

[Falkenhayn]

I wouldn't ride on Protestants too hard. Around here, allies are few and far between for people who make posts like that, and I'm disinclined to be one after that little remark...

Excuse me for saying so, but just what the fuck is this supposed to mean?

[Rogue 9]

I wouldn't ride on Protestants too hard. Around here, allies are few and far between for people who make posts like that, and I'm disinclined to be one after that little remark...

Excuse me for saying so, but just what the fuck is this supposed to mean?

I suppose you're too new around here. I'm saying that making claims to rationality in religion doesn't fly too well around here, and I'm one of the few people who will normally sympathize with those who do so. However, being a Protestant, I'm not overly inclined to be all that nice to someone who says things like this:

One of those Sacraments that you Atheist and Protestant Fundies love to deride, is Confirmation.

First, you brought up Confirmation out of the blue; if anyone's going to start in on it now, it'll be your fault. Second, last I checked there were no Protestant fundies going at you, so I assumed that you meant Protestants in general. This is not something calculated to make me too happy. Maybe I jumped the gun, and if so I apologize. Just back off on arguing religion. Makes it easier on all of us.

[SyntaxVorlon]

And yes, I did. Fundamentalism, which I may, incorrectly, be using as a substitute for fantacism, transcends belief systems.

And you're basing the statement on the existence of the atheist rhetoric flying around about how stupid confirmation is, rhetoric that I don't believe exists. That is why I was attacking your wording.