Enforcing the Prime Directive

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2004-08-25 01:00am

How do the Feddies do it? How do they keep pre-warp societies safe from Merchants with low/non-existant ethics? Does each planet have a destroyer on picket duty with sensor platforms keeping watch? How are they kept safe from the Harry Mudd's of the Quadrant?

Brought on by the 'First contact' questions in SLAM. Obviously the Feds have an official policy for when they find a pre-warp society, but how do they enforce it?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-08-25 01:14am

IIRC Insurrection shows us that starsystems inside their 'territory' (a useless term for space, but anyway...) is a part of the Federation even though the inhabitants are not Federation citizens. Therefore they can simply quarantine the world off from other rival powers, such as the Ferengi or Klingons etc, by claiming territorial sovereignty. This keeps those guys out.

As for internal Federation worlds? I should think Starfleet and the Federation Council would probably obey the PD if it suits them. Then again, if the system has something valuable then the PD gets thrown out the window.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-08-25 01:20am

The Prime Directive only applies to Federation citizens. However anyone under Prime Directive protection within Federation space is apparently shielded from outsiders as well.

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2004-08-25 01:22am

Actually, the Prime Directive applies only to Federation members and Starfleet, other civilizations are free to plunder and subjugate pre-warp socities to their hearts content. The Feringi are notorious for it as are the Cardassians. The caveate being that if you engage in such behavior the Feddies are likely to forbid you from trading within Fedddie space , thus cutting you off from the largest of all markets within the Alpha Quadrant.

I would imagine that Pre-warp civ's found within the boundaries of Federation controlled space are picketted or have stealthed sensor probes in place to monitor the world and report back to FleetHQ once they detect the prerequisite warp technology so that a First Contact team can be dispatched to induce this nascent world to join up with the Federation.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-08-25 04:52am

Although the prime directive is a Federation creation they dont like others violating it. In the Voyeger episode False Profit two Ferengi crash landed on a primitive world and took over the place with their superior technology. The Voyeger crew did their best to evict them even though it was none of their buisness. IIRC they cited the Ferengi as having violated the prime directive.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-08-25 05:24am

IUnknown wrote:Although the prime directive is a Federation creation they dont like others violating it. In the Voyeger episode False Profit two Ferengi crash landed on a primitive world and took over the place with their superior technology. The Voyeger crew did their best to evict them even though it was none of their buisness. IIRC they cited the Ferengi as having violated the prime directive.

Everything except simply sticking them in the brig. And then that silly bitch Janeway actually lets herself be talked into releasing them back to the planet on the grounds that to remove them would violate the Prime Directive by taking away the natives' "gods".

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-08-25 01:46pm

It seems like enforcing the Prime Directive would be a huge drain on Starfleet. I imagine most of the worlds within the Federation are not warp-capable, so they have to defend all those worlds with only the resources of the worlds that are warp-capable. They would have to keep everyone, including civilians, off them. In times of war, the drain becomes worse, because these worlds make excellent bases and resource pumps for the enemy, who doesn't follow the Prime Directive, right when they need ships elewhere. Under these circumstances, I imagine one of three scenarios is happening.

1. They ignore the Prime Directive, which makes them hypocrites.

2. They follow the Prime Directive, and are at a big disadvantage compared to their enemies.

3. They follow the Prime Directive, and manage to find enough resources on the planets they are allowed to exploit to overcome having to defend the planets they aren't allowed to exploit.

I see little evidence of the second scenario being true, and the third is too convenient to be believed. This leaves the first scenario. In other words, either the Prime Directive is less clear-cut than it's cracked up to be, or it's not being followed as scrupulously as we are led to believe.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2004-08-25 03:13pm

Does the Prime Directive actualy apply to Federation Citizens? I thought it only applied to Star Fleet.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2004-08-25 04:40pm

CDiehl wrote:It seems like enforcing the Prime Directive would be a huge drain on Starfleet. I imagine most of the worlds within the Federation are not warp-capable, so they have to defend all those worlds with only the resources of the worlds that are warp-capable.<snip>

What exactly are you basing that on?

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2004-08-25 08:38pm

Although the prime directive is a Federation creation they dont like others violating it. In the Voyeger episode False Profit two Ferengi crash landed on a primitive world and took over the place with their superior technology. The Voyeger crew did their best to evict them even though it was none of their buisness. IIRC they cited the Ferengi as having violated the prime directive.

That actually makes no sense whatsoever. How is the Federation going to put their laws on other powers like the Klingons, Romulans or Ferengi? Something was wrong there. I can only say it must have been bad writing.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-08-25 08:54pm

Superman wrote: That actually makes no sense whatsoever. How is the Federation going to put their laws on other powers like the Klingons, Romulans or Ferengi? Something was wrong there. I can only say it must have been bad writing.

Janeway came up with the rather dubious justification that since the Federation hosted the negations which lead to the Ferengi getting stranded in the DQ (and thus on that planet) they were duty bound to correct the situation.

In essence she didn’t like what the Ferengi were doing (with good reason) and just decided to correct the situation, I can’t really say I disapprove.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2004-08-26 01:12am

I'm basing it on the observation that many episodes of Star Trek involved cultures that had no obvious warp technology available. I think one can safely assume the same state of affairs exists all over the galaxy, with warp-capable cultures being rare. As a result, there would have to be a lot of inhabited planets inside Federation borders that are pre-warp, and off limits according to the Prime Directive. Such planets would have to be guarded by Starfleet, to make sure they can develop at their own pace without interference from anyone.

As for civilians not being bound by the Prime Directive, I doubt it. I'm sure most Federation citizens are not inclined to break it any more than they would be to break any major law or taboo. However all it takes is one greedy reprobate with a ship and some trinkets to wreck everything. I don't think a Starfleet captain or a Federation court is going to accept some smart-ass excusing having just been caught providing advanced technology to a pre-warp culture by saying the Prime Directive doesn't apply to him. For the Prime Directive to mean anything, it would have to apply to everyone in the Federation. Otherwise, it's nothing but empty idealism.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2004-08-26 02:10am

In TOS, the Federation would make contact with and even negotiate trade or safe harbour treaties with pre-warp civilisations when necessary ("A Taste Of Armageddon", "Friday's Child", "The Mark Of Gideon", "Wolf In The Fold") and in one instance provided covert arms and aid to balance out a tribal war where one side was being equipped covertly by the Klingons ("A Private Little War"). Starfleet was obliged to correct interference wrought by previous Earth expeditions upon primitive cultures ("A Piece Of The Action") as well as by Starfleet personnel or private individuals knowingly breaking the law; said individuals being held liable as much as Starfleet officers who violated Gen. Order n.1, e.g. John Gill, R.M. Merrick, and Capt. Ronald Tracy of the Exeter ("Patterns Of Force", "Bread And Circuses", "The Omega Glory"). It also seems that the Federation would deal with or even admit into Federation membership worlds which didn't have warp flight but did possess other advanced technologies and were aware of space civilisation ("A Taste Of Armageddon", "The Cloud-Minders", "The Mark Of Gideon").

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-08-28 12:53pm

Perhaps we can just say that Starfleet's interpretation of the "Prime Directive" has changed over the centuries...?

Though it is a confusing philosophy, to be sure.

Admiral_Handsome · Post by **Admiral_Handsome** » 2004-08-28 07:19pm

Alyeska wrote:

The Prime Directive only applies to Federation citizens...

Are you sure? That seems rather odd since all the pre-warp civilisations do not know the Federation even exists. How can they be citizens of something they know nothing about?

Take Mintaka for example. The prime directive was enforced on the planet (before the mess up) even though the Mintakans had no knowledge of the Federation and therefore did not consider themselves to be Federation citizens. Which would mean the prime directive wouldn't apply to them.

Actually, the Prime Directive applies only to Federation members and Starfleet

I would say the prime directive applies to ALL races that are not actively engaged in hostile acts against the Federation or that have not yet communicated and opened relations with the Federation. The Tamarians are a good example I think. Since communication was impossible, the Federation did not interfere with them. Once communication has been made, the prime directive is out of the window and trade as well as political discussion is open.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-06 10:36am

Admiral_Handsome wrote:Are you sure? That seems rather odd since all the pre-warp civilisations do not know the Federation even exists. How can they be citizens of something they know nothing about?

Take Mintaka for example. The prime directive was enforced on the planet (before the mess up) even though the Mintakans had no knowledge of the Federation and therefore did not consider themselves to be Federation citizens. Which would mean the prime directive wouldn't apply to them.

Your not paying attention. The restrictions of the Prime Directive only apply to Federation citizens. This means that only Federation citizens must abide by the Non Interferance rule. Now when a pre-warp civilization is within Federation space the Federation basicaly claim it under Prime Directive protection and prevent other governments and people from interferring.

I would say the prime directive applies to ALL races that are not actively engaged in hostile acts against the Federation or that have not yet communicated and opened relations with the Federation. The Tamarians are a good example I think. Since communication was impossible, the Federation did not interfere with them. Once communication has been made, the prime directive is out of the window and trade as well as political discussion is open.

Incorrect. The Federation would have to fight wars with just about everyone if they attempted to enforce the Prime Directive. What other soverign governments do in or near their borders is something the Federation can not change unless they are willing to go to war over it. Hence only the Federation and planets within the Federation fall under the Prime Directive.

Admiral_Handsome · Post by **Admiral_Handsome** » 2004-09-14 08:10am

Alyeska wrote:

Incorrect. The Federation would have to fight wars with just about everyone if they attempted to enforce the Prime Directive. What other soverign governments do in or near their borders is something the Federation can not change unless they are willing to go to war over it. Hence only the Federation and planets within the Federation fall under the Prime Directive.

Now it is YOU who is not paying attention miss Alyeska.

Which part of my post did you not get? I wrote this:

"I would say the prime directive applies to ALL races that are not actively engaged in hostile acts against the Federation or that have not yet communicated and opened relations with the Federation"

So where did you get this rubbish that I somehow implied the Federation wants to enforce the prime directive on races which have soverign governments, by the use of arms?

Read again. "I would say the prime directive applies to ALL races that are not actively engaged in hostile acts against the Federation or that have not yet communicated and opened relations with the Federation."

Let me clear that up, just in case you are not paying attention again.
If a previously unknown race such as the husnok came out of deep space and attacked the Feds without ever communicating then the prime directive ie the non interference in other species affairs part, would be out the nearest airlock.
Also, if communication cannot be made with a race, the Federation WILL NOT interfere with that race. The Tamarians are your example of this.

There you go miss Alyeska, now do pay attention in the future.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-14 11:01am

Grow a fucking brain. The Prime Directive is a Federation law. Why would the rest of the galaxy give a rats ass about that?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-09-14 11:19am

Admiral_Handsome wrote: Now it is YOU who is not paying attention miss Alyeska.

Which part of my post did you not get? I wrote this:

"I would say the prime directive applies to ALL races that are not actively engaged in hostile acts against the Federation or that have not yet communicated and opened relations with the Federation"

So where did you get this rubbish that I somehow implied the Federation wants to enforce the prime directive on races which have soverign governments, by the use of arms?

Read again. "I would say the prime directive applies to ALL races that are not actively engaged in hostile acts against the Federation or that have not yet communicated and opened relations with the Federation."

that logic doesn't work unless you only apply it to planets within federation territory. outside of federation territory Starfleet doesn't have the authority to enforce jack shit.

using your reasoning, the federation would enforce the prime directive in say, Romulan Space, during eras when the Romulans weren't engaged in hostilities with the federation. which it couldn't do without risking war with the Romulans since it has no business being in their territory in the first place.

Admiral_Handsome · Post by **Admiral_Handsome** » 2004-09-14 12:06pm

Let me first say this, Miss Alyeska please SHUT UP (grow a brain? What the hell is that meant to mean? How can I be typing if I have no brain? Yet again your reasoning awsome

)

Back to the discussion...

Darth Zod Wrote:

that logic doesn't work unless you only apply it to planets within federation territory. outside of federation territory Starfleet doesn't have the authority to enforce jack shit.

using your reasoning, the federation would enforce the prime directive in say, Romulan Space, during eras when the Romulans weren't engaged in hostilities with the federation. which it couldn't do without risking war with the Romulans since it has no business being in their territory in the first place.

I'm not sure we are on the same wavelength here. Let me make myself a little more clear so we can see where we stand. I'm not implying that any other race should obey the prime directive. You should read my comments in the context of how the Federation itself obeys the PD. Let me show you what I mean.

Take my earlier statement: "... the prime directive applies to ALL races that are not actively ..."

I meant this in terms of Federation policy towards other races. If the prime directive applies to a race (ie the Tamarians) then what I mean is that the Federation will not interfere with that race, and will uphold the prime directive when dealing with that race. therefore the PD applies to that race. Just a simple reading misunderstanding, but I can see how my comments could be read in that way. Hope that clears it Zod

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-14 12:33pm

I'm a guy dipshit.

Furthermore you got into an argument with me without ever reading everything in this thread. Prime Directive applies to non-warp civilizations that do not have previous contact with warp civilizations. The Prime Directive does not apply to warp capable civilizations. This means the Federation will do as it pleases with warp capable or warp visited civilizations.

Everything you have posted has already been covered, although you did a magnificent job of NOT speaking clearly and deciding to get into an argument over things already decided.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-09-14 12:35pm

One question:
What if two aspects of the Prime Directive contradict? (perhaps I'm wrong and this thing is part of Starfleet's directive, not the prime directive, but anyway:)
For example:
1) Always answer a distress call
2) Don't interfere with developing societies

?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-14 12:36pm

FYI Grow a Brain means that you are acting like and idiot and that you need to change your ways. The insult works in that it assumes you don't have one and that in order to change your ways you must grow one. Deductive reasoning isn't strong with you is it?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-09-14 12:37pm

Praxis wrote:One question:
What if two aspects of the Prime Directive contradict? (perhaps I'm wrong and this thing is part of Starfleet's directive, not the prime directive, but anyway:)
For example:
1) Always answer a distress call
2) Don't interfere with developing societies

?

Answering a distress call is not part of the Prime Directive. Infact Data has gotten in trouble for answering a distress call when it violated the Prime Directive.

Admiral_Handsome · Post by **Admiral_Handsome** » 2004-09-14 01:11pm

A Lady Wrote:

I'm a guy dipshit

??? Then why do you have such a sissy girls name? What does it mean?

The Prime Directive does not apply to warp capable civilizations

Then why was Janeway so careful about not giving tech to the warp civilisations she ran across during the voyage home?

This means the Federation will do as it pleases with warp capable or warp visited civilizations

You mean like the Tamarians? No contact was possible so they didn't interfere with them for decades, they completely avoided them until picard bridged the two for future talks, and only because THEY were the ones who made the 'first contact'.

although you did a magnificent job of NOT speaking clearly

Am I the one at fault? You read my earlier post and then 'click' you finally understood and saw how pathetic your earlier posts had been.

you need to change your ways

Or what? Why do I need to change? And what is it exactly that I need to change?

Praxis Wrote:

One question:
What if two aspects of the Prime Directive contradict? (perhaps I'm wrong and this thing is part of Starfleet's directive, not the prime directive, but anyway:)
For example:
1) Always answer a distress call
2) Don't interfere with developing societies

If a planet just like modern day Earth, with 6 billion people was in danger, (lets say a meteorite is about to hit it) then the Federation would not lift a finger to help the inhabitants on that planet for the simple reason that they are not technologicaly advanced enough. The Federation would rather watch 6 billion people die than help a civilisation that is not as technologicaly advanced as they. How on Earth they can call themselves civilised is beyond me. My guess is that if something as bad as my above example actually happened, then the Federation leaders would be overthrown by the more compassionate general public.