LOL - as much contact as Snoopy did with the Red Baron?

[MKSheppard]

Yes, because we all know I read and committ to memory every thread in the message board.

I posted those two pictures in another thread about Kerry; and the
same bullshit got thrown forth by the peanut gallery; "THERES NO PROOF
THEY SERVED TOGETHER!!!"

[Perinquus]

Here's a version of that same photo on the sift boat veterans' web page:


It's presented because most of the men in that photo don't support Kerry, and object to his use of their images to further his campaign.

[SirNitram]

Yes, because we all know I read and committ to memory every thread in the message board.

I posted those two pictures in another thread about Kerry; and the
same bullshit got thrown forth by the peanut gallery; "THERES NO PROOF
THEY SERVED TOGETHER!!!"

That's nice.

[Darth Wong]

It's presented because most of the men in that photo don't support Kerry, and object to his use of their images to further his campaign.

Most of the men in that photo are mad at Kerry for joining the antiwar movement after coming home. It's pretty obvious why they don't support Kerry. The problem is when people who weren't even present at a specific wartime engagement are running around claiming that Kerry lied about what happened during those engagements, and that the official military records are all wrong.

The fact that they were serving in the same part of the military as him does not mean they were present for the specific engagement in question. The men who were on Kerry's boat verified his account of events, and nobody in the division seemed to hate Kerry until he joined the antiwar movement after coming home, which says all you need to know about their motivations.

[Iceberg]

It's presented because most of the men in that photo don't support Kerry, and object to his use of their images to further his campaign.

Most of the men in that photo are mad at Kerry for joining the antiwar movement after coming home. It's pretty obvious why they don't support Kerry. The problem is when people who weren't even present at a specific wartime engagement are running around claiming that Kerry lied about what happened during those engagements, and that the official military records are all wrong.

The fact that they were serving in the same part of the military as him does not mean they were present for the specific engagement in question. The men who were on Kerry's boat verified his account of events, and nobody in the division seemed to hate Kerry until he joined the antiwar movement after coming home, which says all you need to know about their motivations.

Several of them have given strongly glowing statements about Kerry even after the war, as recently as his last re-election campaign for the Senate in 2000, as well.

Follow the money, folks...

[Perinquus]

It's presented because most of the men in that photo don't support Kerry, and object to his use of their images to further his campaign.

Most of the men in that photo are mad at Kerry for joining the antiwar movement after coming home. It's pretty obvious why they don't support Kerry. The problem is when people who weren't even present at a specific wartime engagement are running around claiming that Kerry lied about what happened during those engagements, and that the official military records are all wrong.

The fact that they were serving in the same part of the military as him does not mean they were present for the specific engagement in question. The men who were on Kerry's boat verified his account of events, and nobody in the division seemed to hate Kerry until he joined the antiwar movement after coming home, which says all you need to know about their motivations.

The implication being that their motivations are somehow dishonest? I don't see how. First off, how do we know what they really thought of Kerry before he became involved in politics? Is there any record of that? Should they have organized themselves into a group to express their disagreement with Kerry when he was a 26 year old nobody? The thing I find so interesting about this is that there are just so many people who served with Kerry who are coming out against him. You have one of John Kerry's crew members, his doctor, every commanding officer he ever had, & large numbers of soldiers who fought alongside Kerry in other boats along with officers who served with Kerry all saying his not fit to be commander in chief, all are participating in some sort of bizarre, republican funded, right wing conspiracy to derail Kerry's run at the presidency. I find it hard to believe that that many of Kerry's fellow veterans have dishonest motives for opposing him. If there were a handful of guys involved, sure, you'd have to consider that possibility, but this seems to go a lot deeper than that.

This much I'll grant you: if someone who wasn't present at a specific incident is lying about what happened during that incident, that is dishonest, and is almost certainly politically motivated. However, I don't think all the swift boat veterans are saying that. I think some of them simply oppose Kerry for his post war activities, and not only do I see nothing dishonest about that, I actually agree with them.

Kerry was not simply part of the anti-war movement of the 1960s. Many people opposed the Vietnam war then for a variety of reasons, and there is nothing wrong with that. I myself think it was a bad idea for us to have got involved in that one. Kerry didn't simply come back and protest the war, and say we had no business there and should get out. He accused Americans still fighting in Vietnam of widespread atrocities on a daily basis, and stated that these atrocities were authorized all the way up the chain of command, and that these atrocities were committed for racial reasons. He charged U.S. soldiers with doing things to the Vietnamese that we would never do to Europeans.

As Thos. Sowell pointed out, this will no doubt come as some surprise to those German men women and children who perished by the thousands in cities we fire-bombed to rubble in World War II. In John Kerry's speeches and public appearances, however, he said that Americans deliberately killed innocent Vietnamese civilians, raped Vietnamese women wholesale and had "free-fire zones" where troops were under orders to shoot anything that moved.

Now that he is running for president, Kerry is now trying to back away from some of those statements. He is trying to excuse those remarks by saying they were just the words of "an angry young man." Anger is one thing. Lies are another. If what Kerry said was true then, it is still true now. If they were lies then, then they are still lies. Personally, I think he was lying about those allegations. I have no doubt that some atrocities were committed in Vietnam by some American soldiers. That sort of thing happens in every war, regrettably. But I do not believe for a moment that it was as widespread as Kerry claims it was, and that approval for it ran all the way up the chain of command.

John Kerry and many other strident 1960s anti-war activists said things about our servicemen in Vietnam and what they were doing that basically represented our servicemen as dishonorable and criminal, this was widely reported by the media, and created an atmosphere in which men who had risked their lives for this country in Vietnam returned to find themselves dishonored in their native land, denounced as "baby killers" and spat upon, when they stepped off the plane hoping to be greeted warmly by firends and family. I think it is entirely understandable that these veterans are not just bitter about what Kerry said of them, they are incensed at it, and horrified at the thought that he might become President of the United States - horrified that a man who lied about them to besmirch their good names is within reach of becoming commander in chief. They don't believe such a man is fit to be president, and neither do I. What amazes me is that some people seem to think it is necessary to dream up some conspiracy theory to explain what these veterans are doing?

[Perinquus]

It's presented because most of the men in that photo don't support Kerry, and object to his use of their images to further his campaign.

Most of the men in that photo are mad at Kerry for joining the antiwar movement after coming home. It's pretty obvious why they don't support Kerry. The problem is when people who weren't even present at a specific wartime engagement are running around claiming that Kerry lied about what happened during those engagements, and that the official military records are all wrong.

The fact that they were serving in the same part of the military as him does not mean they were present for the specific engagement in question. The men who were on Kerry's boat verified his account of events, and nobody in the division seemed to hate Kerry until he joined the antiwar movement after coming home, which says all you need to know about their motivations.

Several of them have given strongly glowing statements about Kerry even after the war, as recently as his last re-election campaign for the Senate in 2000, as well.

Follow the money, folks...

And even more of them didn't.

Back in the 60s when Kerry was making his allegations of atrocities, many in the media repeated those allegations without proof being asked for or given, and without reporting the remarks other Vietnam veterans who flatly contradicted what Kerry was saying. The Senate committee that gave Kerry's testimony national publicity refused to allow John O'Neill, who served in the same unit, to testify with a contrary view.

Most of these vets' opposition to Kerry goes all the way back to the 1960s. You don't have to cook up some crackpot conspiracy theory to explain their hostility to him now.

[Sea Skimmer]

Wait, didn't Snoopy want to shoot down the Red Baron?

Yes, which is why he flew a British Sopwith Camel fighter.