Imperial starfighters

[Darwin]

easy to make, or easy to MAINTAIN?

The Empire has huge numbers of TIEs. You want your support structure for these to be as small as possible to make your forces leaner and meaner. So the TIE is a bubble with engines and guns and radiators. I bet they have a LOT less downtime and groundcrew per fighter than the X-Wing, which has even in the EU been criticized for being maintenance-intensive. A Tie's simple and effective construction means they can probably just swap out parts that need maintenance with their stocks, and get the fighter right back on duty.

[Jade Falcon]

The reason for the lack of hyperdrives on TIE's is sometimes given as cost, other times it's because TIE's operate close to a home base or starship, and the third reason I've heard is to discourage defection.

[Lex]

Well the Empire did plan to build TIE's with shields(Defenders), but yet again it was one of the Emperors projects, and struggled after his first death, and failed after his second. the emperor built TIE Fighters and Interceptors when he needed a huge amound of fighters quickly to maintin his navy, and then he searched for a better version, which never came to mass use, unfortunately for the empire.

[Kurgan]

A better question is why the Empire bothered to stick giant solar panels on the sides of their fighters which can't possibly produce very much power for the ship and do things like restricting the pilots view and addeds to it's mass.

They aren't solar panels

Don't blame him for the "Solar Panels" thing, until the SWTC pretty much every official source said they were Solar Panels.

[Rogue 9]

The BFC trilogy still identifies them as solar panels, and had the TIEs in question lose power and be sluggish out in interstellar space, allowing the Lady Luck to outrun them and escape.

[Sarevok]

easy to make, or easy to MAINTAIN?

The Empire has huge numbers of TIEs. You want your support structure for these to be as small as possible to make your forces leaner and meaner. So the TIE is a bubble with engines and guns and radiators. I bet they have a LOT less downtime and groundcrew per fighter than the X-Wing, which has even in the EU been criticized for being maintenance-intensive. A Tie's simple and effective construction means they can probably just swap out parts that need maintenance with their stocks, and get the fighter right back on duty.

Actualy TIEs require more maintainence.

From the Starfighter section of WEG Rebel Source Book.

However, it must be noted that this applies equally to both sides in the conflict. Imperial starfighters usually operate from superbly-equipped bases, often aboard Star Destroyers, but their ships are generally inferior in design and construction to ours, and their mechanics of a low grade of competence indeed. Downtime for TIE craft between battles is roughly four times as long as it is for Alliance ships, and TIEs have a reputation for severe loss of effectiveness if flown into battle without being properly maintained.

[Isolder74]

Actualy TIEs require more maintainence.

From the Starfighter section of WEG Rebel Source Book.

However, it must be noted that this applies equally to both sides in the conflict. Imperial starfighters usually operate from superbly-equipped bases, often aboard Star Destroyers, but their ships are generally inferior in design and construction to ours, and their mechanics of a low grade of competence indeed. Downtime for TIE craft between battles is roughly four times as long as it is for Alliance ships, and TIEs have a reputation for severe loss of effectiveness if flown into battle without being properly maintained.

What it sounds like in that is that because the Empire does not train its mechanics as well(they figure the tie that is damaged is not coming back) their ships suffer from more down time despite having better parts and supplies.

[Stark]

Who cares about shields that can't save you from a direct hit? Forget the games, how many TIEs killed all the rebels in ANH? Like, 4, then Vader and 2 more? TIEs aren't inferior to Xwings in any significant ways, bar hyperdrives, and thats a design tradeoff, and warheads, which do shit anyway.

And I know TIEs aren't pressurised; Xwing pilots that eject would die in space. So who cares about their pilots again?

The idea of TIEs as crap, disposable weapons of an evil, irresponsible Empire is just stupid, and even better, not supported by the movies. They *are* a minimalist design, but they're naval superiority fighters. And good ones.

[saethar]

The Empire didn't worry about shields on the TIE's because their pilots were literally a dime a dozen. It's called clones. GL has already stated in the comments of the AC DVD that the clones will become the storm troopers and pilots of the Empire.
When you have a steady supply of well trained personel you worry less about protecting them. Also take into account the probably millions of TIE fighters there are in production at any given time (72 per Imp SD, + others on all the other capital ships & non-capital carrier ships, + all the ground based imperial installations).
Number of Imp SD based on this thread.
Saethar

[Lord of the Farce]

The Empire didn't worry about shields on the TIE's because their pilots were literally a dime a dozen. It's called clones. GL has already stated in the comments of the AC DVD that the clones will become the storm troopers and pilots of the Empire.
-snip

Again, if that's the case, why the massive discrepency between the resources the Empire put into ground troops (Stormtrooper armour are, IIRC, reputed to each cost almost as much as a cheap interstellar space craft), and their starfighters?

[Kurgan]

Maybe Lucas had the Kamikaze in mind when he created the TIE Pilots?



As to being clones, well, if they are like Kamino style clones, that's still 10 years to "grow" and train another trooper to replace the one you lost. Even if these are faster clones, you'd still need to put them through flight school. UNLESS these are some kind of Zahnian "flash brain imprint" type clone (but then, wouldn't they go nuts from the Force aging too fast thing or something? I haven't read the Hand of Thrawn, so sue me...).

Though maybe they give them a minimum of training and they may not all be clones... Though if they are clones perhaps a nearby Jedi controls their minds. Though this wouldn't be pratical for the Empire since they just have Vader... unless Palpatine manipulates every pilot in battle (like he's said to do in the EU)...

So many possibilities!

[Rogue 9]

and warheads, which do shit anyway.

Correction: And warheads, which destroyed both Death Stars.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Maybe Lucas had the Kamikaze in mind when he created the TIE Pilots?

I very much doubt Lucas had any of this shields bullshit in mind when he came up with the ideas of TIE Fighters and X-Wings. The only reason the EU harps on the TIE's "lack" of shields is because there is no dialouge in the movie of Imperial pilots saying, "shields on, double front" and stuff like that, whereas we do with Rebel pilots.

[FTeik]

Considering, that the same source claims imperial officers to be highly competent one has to wonder, why the same isn´t true for their mechanics.

Also considering, that according to the ICS there are no movable parts on a TIE, what greatly reduces the time to maintain them, this quote about TIEs needomg four times as much time to maintain, smells of rebel-propaganda ten miles against the wind.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Maybe Lucas had the Kamikaze in mind when he created the TIE Pilots?

I very much doubt Lucas had any of this shields bullshit in mind when he came up with the ideas of TIE Fighters and X-Wings. The only reason the EU harps on the TIE's "lack" of shields is because there is no dialouge in the movie of Imperial pilots saying, "shields on, double front" and stuff like that, whereas we do with Rebel pilots.

Of course... we also see the TIE pilots a lot less, which is of course something they miss.

Of course, anything that can possibly be turned as a plus for the RA and a minus for the Empire is seized on by those stupid WEG-fanwank authors that write 90% of the more well-known material.

However, it must be noted that this applies equally to both sides in the conflict. Imperial starfighters usually operate from superbly-equipped bases, often aboard Star Destroyers, but their ships are generally inferior in design and construction to ours, and their mechanics of a low grade of competence indeed. Downtime for TIE craft between battles is roughly four times as long as it is for Alliance ships, and TIEs have a reputation for severe loss of effectiveness if flown into battle without being properly maintained.

A typical case of Rebel Alliance propaganda. Remember that Wedge Antilles supposedly wrote this drivel as part of his lecture. He can't very well say "The Empire has superior pilot training (at least they certainly get more than 10 hours of simulator training before being thrown into the line), better maintenance, more maneuverable ships and they just have plain more of them by an order of magnitude or more to boot!"

The only way this can possibly be true is if the Empire uses conscripts for most of its enlisted mechanics. There is no way the main government's average mechanic quality can be inferior to the guerilla force's unless they are conscripts (which greatly shortens the available time for training and thus closes the training level gap between the two).

It is not impossible - the Soviets do it that way. Still... I bet the authors were just trying to slam more dirt in the Empire's face in their ruthless smear campaign when they wrote that.

EDIT:

Another possibility is Limited Perception. Wedge is a pretty good pilot, so he might have been assigned from the outset to one of the Rebel's better bases with their choice personnel. While on average, the government's force will have an advantage, if he serves on an elite base where they concentrate a bunch of veteran chiefs for the maintenance task, they could achieve a higher grade of competence than the military, which even if not conscript is a mix of people ranging from the equivalent of E1 to the officers.

The Empire didn't worry about shields on the TIE's because their pilots were literally a dime a dozen. It's called clones. GL has already stated in the comments of the AC DVD that the clones will become the storm troopers and pilots of the Empire.

I can buy them making up a part of the Force - just natural good strategy. But I don't see anything undeniable yet about being forced to think of them as the entire Force.

[His Divine Shadow]

You know I think the TIE's are underrated, so what if they aren't as durable, they got speed, maneuverability and firepower and they blasted rebel fighter alright in the movies.
I blame EU writers for this "TIE's use numbers to win against superior rebel fighters, bling bling".

Not sure about the bling bling part but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Master of Ossus]

The BFC trilogy still identifies them as solar panels, and had the TIEs in question lose power and be sluggish out in interstellar space, allowing the Lady Luck to outrun them and escape.

Is this the same BFC that features SW starfighters and planetary defense weapons firing slugs at enemy targets, and has everyone up in arms over a vagabond starship that must have unspeakable power because it managed to cripple an Imperial frigate with a single volley?

[Rogue 9]

The BFC trilogy still identifies them as solar panels, and had the TIEs in question lose power and be sluggish out in interstellar space, allowing the Lady Luck to outrun them and escape.

Is this the same BFC that features SW starfighters and planetary defense weapons firing slugs at enemy targets, and has everyone up in arms over a vagabond starship that must have unspeakable power because it managed to cripple an Imperial frigate with a single volley?

Yes it is. You'll note that I rolled my eyes at it.

[His Divine Shadow]

Is this the same BFC that features SW starfighters and planetary defense weapons firing slugs at enemy targets, and has everyone up in arms over a vagabond starship that must have unspeakable power because it managed to cripple an Imperial frigate with a single volley?

Well...
1) The slugs in question came from a planetary railgun that fired 120 or so a minute IIRC, we have no idea to know the mass or speed of them, I don't see whats bad about such a weapon(they could be huge and near lightspeed projectiles for all we know).
Personally I love this part because the slugs imparted enough energy to overheat a republic destroyers generators, the thing is that they overheated rather than where torn out of their moorings, so so much for the SW KE weakness argument.

2) It was more of an unknown and it was a small intelligence operation or something like that because the vagabond was rumored to have all this exciting technology or it being an ancient alderaan weapons cache and so on, the vagabon did fry an imperial frigate, but these where just some two bit warlords and it didn't really have people up in arms.

[Rogue 9]

Oh yeah, although a lot of other stuff about the BFC trilogy was bad, using mass drivers isn't one of those. Physical impact has its own advantages.

[consequences]

From the Starfighter section of WEG Rebel Source Book.

However, it must be noted that this applies equally to both sides in the conflict. Imperial starfighters usually operate from superbly-equipped bases, often aboard Star Destroyers, but their ships are generally inferior in design and construction to ours, and their mechanics of a low grade of competence indeed. Downtime for TIE craft between battles is roughly four times as long as it is for Alliance ships, and TIEs have a reputation for severe loss of effectiveness if flown into battle without being properly maintained.

Less complicated shit=less maintenance.

Shield generators, hyperdrives, warhead launchers, freaking moveable S-foils, and an integral life-support system all require more maintenance than a freaking ball with two squares attached to it.

Personally, I think the real reason the Rebels used astromech droids rather than a built-in programmable navicomp in their fighters is that the damned things are so temperamental that they require on-board maintenance while still in flight.

[saethar]

Again, if that's the case, why the massive discrepency between the resources the Empire put into ground troops (Stormtrooper armour are, IIRC, reputed to each cost almost as much as a cheap interstellar space craft), and their starfighters?

Storm Trooper armor which can't even stop the energy from a low power blaster pistol (like the one used by Leia in ANH)? Bah - that armor was only good against KE (bullets, knives, punches, etc) and probably not even to good against that. Probably cost less then 5 credits per trooper, plus another 20 or so for the fancy crap in the helmet. Add into it that the Empire would be getting the armor at below cost (nice part of being an evil dictatorship that believed in slave labor & resource raping) and you're lucky if the empire actually paid more than 20 credits total for an entire suit of armor.

At the same time the cost of producing a ship as "simplistic" (really - it flys in space, how simple can it be?) as the TIE is very very low. I assume that the listed price for the TIE Fighter and TIE Interceptor has been grossly inflated, probably on a magnitude of 10 or more. Keep in mind that the same principles which make the ST armor low also apply to the TIE.

Just imagine if the Raptor or JSF could be produced at or below cost (real cost, not jacked up "we make really cool planes" cost) because LHM was putting out a couple hundred thousand of them.

Saethar

[Rogue 9]

Storm Trooper armor which can't even stop the energy from a low power blaster pistol (like the one used by Leia in ANH)?

Note the detention cell break-in. When the unarmored naval troopers and watch officer are shot, they fly backwards over tables/into walls. When stormtroopers are shot later by the same rifles, they merely collapse. That armor does something. Hell, we have no proof that those troopers were even dead inside that armor.

[saethar]

Note the detention cell break-in. When the unarmored naval troopers and watch officer are shot, they fly backwards over tables/into walls. When stormtroopers are shot later by the same rifles, they merely collapse. That armor does something. Hell, we have no proof that those troopers were even dead inside that armor.

There is no practical difference between "dead" and "laying on the ground waiting for your enemy to shoot you in the head" except the hope that your enemy is to busy to do the afore-mentioned head shooting. In the detention scene they were using powerful blaster rifles (vs. the little pistol that Leia used). Besides you know those naval troopers were over-acting cause their faces were visable

Now a more interesting comparison would be the shot that Leia took in the arm in RotJ while completely unarmored, or the shot taken by C3P0 in ESB. Unfortunately there are very few blaster hits in the OT which don't involve storm troopers falling down like the redshirts they obviously are intended to be.

Saethar

[Rogue 9]

When 3PO was hit, he was blasted to pieces. Again, stormtroopers are not. Actually, I think I remember a mention on here of some EU source specifying that the trooper Leia shot did live. Could be wrong, though.