Why the Emperor Isn't a Moron

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Faqa
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Post by Faqa »

Palpatine was absolutely neccesary, mostly because of Luke. As we saw in the Skiff fight, he was by this point perfectly capable of going through ground grunts like a hot knife through butter. If he hadn't drawn him off, the resulting battle would have been MUCH harder. While one Jedi may not be able to take down a legion of troopers and armor, he CAN be a sufficiently large advantage to the Rebels that they might even concievably win, or at least achieve their objective.

Use Vader alone? Trust Vader to turn his own son, or kill him if he fails? Trust Vader, who had already offered to help overthrow him? Right. He HAD to be there.

Plus, of course, Palpy's ego. He wanted a grand victory. He wanted to destroy all his enemies at once. And, if it hadn't been for a sudden lobotomy on the part of the ground commander("Hmmmm.... the shit hit the fan. Should I send all of my forces out? Naaah.....") and his gloating at the end, he WOULD have won. I'm pretty sure it was, ironically, the Emperor's words that stopped Luke in the end, by reminding him who he was allying with.

It WAS overconfidence, but not to such a degree as many seem to think.
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Post by Crazedwraith »

Faqa wrote: I'm pretty sure it was, ironically, the Emperor's words that stopped Luke in the end, by reminding him who he was allying with.

It WAS overconfidence, but not to such a degree as many seem to think.
Whether Luke was sucess fdully Darksided is pretty much immaterial, Even if Luke durned to the darkside the DSII would still have been blown to smitherens, all though its convicble the Emperor might have Escaped.
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Post by Publius »

As Mr. Lou Cannon noted in his biography President Reagan, there are several different types of intelligence. A person phenomenally gifted in one field may be remarkably ignorant in another; this does not detract from his or her intellect, but rather reflects its limitations. Thomas Jefferson, for example, was intellectually quite gifted, but was at the same time woefully ignorant of finance and economic theory. It is precisely for this reason that the "supremely excellent" leader acknowledges his or her own weaknesses, and takes steps to compensate by procuring the assistance of others who are able to ameliorate them.

To the Galactic Emperor's credit, he did precisely that. He focused on his socio-political schemes, manipulating individual masses and governments into doing what he wanted them to do; he delegated actual command and control in military and naval matters to the experts (i.e., the grand admirals, grand generals, and the High Command). Unfortunately, he chose to dispense with his technical advisors and personally planned the Endor operation, with disastrous results. This does not mean that he is a fool, only that he made a foolish series of decisions.

Everything we the audience know about the Galactic Emperor indicates that he plans his operations far, far in advance, with meticulous preparation and "backstage" work; the ultimate example of this long-term planning is of course his Shadow Hand Strategy, which was essentially an autopilot for the Galactic Empire, spelling out in detail exactly what was to be done at the exact time it was to be done. As another example, the Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook indicates that he was already possessed of sufficient wealth, power, and influence to dominate the galaxy before he was elected Supreme Chancellor – i.e., the pieces were all in place long before the game began.

It is noteworthy that each time we the audience have seen the Galactic Emperor make extremely poor decisions, with disastrous results, he was basically leaving his own area of expertise – Seldonian games of grand strategy – and working outside his field. Instead of manipulating others into doing what he wanted at Endor, he was actively pushing them, playing at being a general; there was no preparation at all for his sudden appearance at Da Soocha, and he was making decisions ad hoc throughout Dark Empire II and Empire's End. In short, when he is no longer working from his script, he falls flatly on his face; he cannot improvise.

Indeed, it is quite possible that his prodigious gifts – both preternatural and otherwise – contribute to this inability. He is a quasi-immortal demigod; he has repeatedly survived death and even transcended space/time. Like a sort of Kwizats Haderach, he is prescient and can be in many places at once. He spends very, very little time interacting with normal sentient beings; he does not actively govern the Empire, but rather spends most of his time studying and meditating. When he is not secluded in esoteric study, he is primarily interacting with people like Lord Vader and Inquisitor Jerec – neither of whom is "normal."

One is reminded of Dr. Manhattan in The Watchmen, who lost the ability to judge reality from a human perspective. When divorced from the experience of reality from a single time and place, he lost the ability to relate to mundane perspectives; what seems important to someone else may simply not register with him. The Galactic Emperor at the time of Return of the Jedi was in a process of transcendence, from an individual into a force of nature; he was gradually absorbing nearly 20 billions of people into himself on Byss, as well as regularly projecting his awareness beyond the normal confines of space and time. He quite simply did not view things from a normal perspective.

He probably did not understand the necessary technical details of the ambush he wanted to create, but he personally planned it anyway. He probably not have understood the viewpoint of his admirals had they tried to correct his plan, and would indeed have been incensed at the suggestion that he somehow needed their advice when he had not sought it (he shows traits of malignant narcissism, and would very likely be deeply resentful of any suggestion of inadequacy on his part). He basically failed to acknowledge his limitations, and made what appeared to him to be reasonable decisions which were unfortunately disastrously ill-advised.

To argue that the risk to him personally was nil is rather curious. In the first place, he very nearly did not survive his death at Endor, being as it was wholly unexpected. In the second place, even if he were completely invulnerable in his own person, that would not in fact justify the decisions he made regarding the operation itself. A general who exposes himself to unnecessary danger in a poorly planned operation is not excused for his negligence by the fact that he personally had nothing to lose. A poor plan is a poor plan regardless, and the Galactic Emperor's plan at Endor was indeed a poor one. It is perhaps explained by his particular circumstances, but explanation is altogether different from excuse.

He essentially disregarded his own established practice of leaving practical details to others and made a plan that seemed good to him; for various reasons, his judgment was unreliable in this particular matter, and it was in fact a poor plan, which he may have realized had he not been so grossly overconfident in himself and ignorant of the realities of the situation. One may fairly conclude by saying that while the debacle at Endor certainly does not prove that the Galactic Emperor is an idiot, it certainly does prove that he can make idiotic decisions.
Last edited by Publius on 2004-08-27 08:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mark S »

Was The Emperor being stupid with his plan? Let’s take a look at it and see.

First we need to establish what the ultimate ends of this plan were supposed to be. Those would be: turning Luke to the Dark Side and the destruction of the Rebel Alliance.

How can he turn Luke to the Dark Side? He needs to get Luke in front of him, tear down everything that is Luke Skywalker, show him the error of his ways and rebuild. Vader wasn’t supposed to try on Bespin (only freeze him and bring him to the Emperor) and failed when he did. It was time for the Emperor, the Master, a man with vast experience in corrupting people, to see to it personally.

How is he going to get Luke before him? That’s easy. Luke wants to see him dead. If Luke finds out he is going to be somewhere, and thinks he has any hope of achieving that goal, he will try. So the Emperor allows the news to be leaked that there is a second Death Star and allows the Bothans to learn the secret location. He even lets it be known that he, himself, will be on the station at such-and-such a time. I plum far too sweet for the Rebellion to pass up and a mission that Luke will definitely be a part of.

Not only that, but an opportunity he knows the rebellion can not afford to screw up. They will be sending as much firepower as they can at the station to make sure that it will be destroyed. The bulk of the rebel fleet will be sent and will be ripe for harvesting. Especially considering that what he failed to let leak was that the Imperial fleet would also be there and the battlestation would be fully armed and operational.

He also knows that if Vader is anywhere near Luke, the boy will try to seek his father out. So he tells Vader that when that happens he is to bring Luke to him. All of that comes to pass exactly as he had foreseen it, and Luke standing in the throne room waiting to be turned. Now all he has to do is tear away at Luke until he lets his anger take over. Once he feels the power it will give him, he’ll never turn back. Just like his father.

How does he do that? First, sit back for a while and make Luke watch the Rebel Alliance that he has fought for and loved for so long be trapped by the Imperial fleet he didn’t expect to be there and the wiped out by the super-laser that he hadn’t expected to be operation. As Luke watches his friends die while listening to the Emperor laugh about it, he’s going to get angrier and angrier. With a little goading he’ll give in to the anger and hate and attack. Vader will be there to defend and oh what luck. With that little fact he can force Luke to kill his own father, the one man he’s looked up to all his life until knowing the truth. Then the Emperor can point on that he’s just like his father, let the kid rage a bit about it, and then point out how powerful he’s become and all the things he can do with that power. Once that’s happened he’s as good as dancing on the Dark Side. And if Luke doesn’t live up and Vader wins the fight (or Luke fails to be turned as he did), he’ll die, Vader will have killed his own son and the Emperor will be uncontested.

Meanwhile, he knows the rebels will be sending all the ships they can get, and that the only hope they have is to knock out the shield generator. There only going to be able to sneak a few commandos onto the surface of Endor so to make sure they will be defeated he puts an entire legion down there. To anyone’s mind that would be more than a match. Especially since the rebel commandos would have very limited recon about the generator (which they did. They did not know about the back door until the ewoks told them).

Now the shield will not be down and the rebel attack will be in vain. All you have to do is destroy them. He does that by having the Imperial fleet there to trap them against the Death Star and keep them from escaping and the Death Star super-laser operational to pick them off with impunity. Even if some escape, they will only live to tell the tale of their futility. Fear of the battle station will crush any other resistance.

How is that a bad plan? That’s a great plan. It worked perfectly. And it would not have concluded as it did if not for two factors. Vader and ewoks. If Vader had not turned away from the Emperor for love of his son, Luke would have been dead. If the ewoks hadn’t helped the rebel commandos, the shields would never have been dropped and the Death Star, and Emperor, would have been perfectly safe.

The Emperor’s only problems were his inability to see the light side in his bulldog, his inability to foresee that the primitive life on Endor would think a rebel droid was a god and be convinced to fight against him, and underestimating those primitives. Even still. The legion didn't lose the generator because of ewoks. They lost it because of Han Solo's stolen AT-ST ploy.
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Post by FTeik »

Can somebody please tell me, what the Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook has to say on Palpatine´s wealth and influence?

Thank you.

Concerning the emperors intellect, while the plan for the battle of Endor wasn´t perfect from a pure military point of view, concerning Palpatine´s goal of turning Luke Skywalker it was probabely a working option. For itself each of the small factors, that when amounted finally turned the battle in the rebellions favour wouldn´t have caused much damage.

The involvement of the ewoks, Chewbacca taking over the AT-ST, Han Solo´s plot with the bunker-guard, the rebel capital ships attacking the star destroyers ... . Each point of that alone wouldn´t have helped the rebels to achive victory.

And Vader turning on him? Well, the man has been under his thumb for twenty years, so Palpatine would have had reason to assume, that he had Vader under perfect control (especially if ROTS shows, that Vader already had to made a similar decision).

However some of the blunders at the time of the DE-series are inexcusable.
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Post by Publius »

FTeik wrote:Can somebody please tell me, what the Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook has to say on Palpatine´s wealth and influence?
Although the direct quote is not presently available, it essentially states that Senator Palpatine had established a cozy, mutually beneficial relationship with the members of the Galactic Corporate Policy League (viz., the Tagge Company, Merr-Sonn Mil/Sci, Ayelixe/Krongbing Textiles, Millennium Entertainments, Bank of the Core, Chiewab Amalgamated Pharmaceuticals Company, Kuat Drive Yards, Rendili StarDrive, Cybot Galactica, and the Karflo Corporation). These are, of course, some of the largest and most influential conglomerates in the galaxy, and their leadership had a vested interest in Senator Palpatine's political success.

The actual statement itself is that by the time he was elected "President," he had already accumulated "wealth and connections enough to guarantee him unlimited power". Both the films and the Expanded Universe show him to keep modest, unpretentious quarters (the vast majority of the Imperial Palace being for public use rather than a private domicile), and one is led to conclude that he carefully concealed the true extent of his wealth.
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Post by Tychu »

Um this just popped in my head, What happend to the Royal Guards that we see by the elevator when Vader brings Luke in? They should have played a role in all this when they saw Vader pick up the Emperor
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Post by Robert Treder »

Tychu wrote:Um this just popped in my head, What happend to the Royal Guards that we see by the elevator when Vader brings Luke in? They should have played a role in all this when they saw Vader pick up the Emperor
The Emperor commanded them to leave him. My guess is that, in the other room, they were unaware of the full extent of the situation between Vader and the Emperor, and even if they were, they wouldn't disobey the Emperor by interfering.
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Post by Admiral_Handsome »

Vympel has hit the nail on the head. The Emperor was after Luke, thats why he needed to be there. In the Emperors mind, the DS2 would have been lost because Luke would have destroyed it like the DS1 before.
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Re: Why the Emperor Isn't a Moron

Post by Praxis »

Imperial Overlord wrote:My apologizies if this has already been covered. I searched and didn't find anything.

Obviously the Emperor shouldn't have been on DS II and it wasn't necessary for him to be there in order to trap the rebel fleet, but he did have good reasons (from his perspective) for being there.

1. The Emperor is a Sith Lord. He is heir to an ancient tradition that has fought the Jedi for millenia. They have both risen and fallen into near extinction several times. From a Sith point of view, the most important thing is the final extermination of their ancient enemies, the Jedi.

2. Darth Vader is obviously good at Jedi slaughter, but not particularily reliable in the case of his own son. He has already failed to convert or kill Luke, the last known surviving Jedi. The extermination of the last true threat (from a Sith point of view) to his regime is too important to be left to chance. The Jedi must fall before he destroys the Sith of trains more Jedi.

3. Adding his presence to DS II makes the bait irresistable. The Jedi will be their and Palpatine will be on hand to make sure Vader gets the job done or take charge himself.

4. Protected by a planetary shield generator with a reinforced garrison, an operational DS II, and an Imperial fleet waiting in ambush; the risks to the Emperor are minimal.

5. Obviously, it didn't work out. But the Emperor did have good reasons for doing it.
Plus the fact that he was coordinating the Imperial forces with the Force, and when Vader killed him the Imperial formation collapsed.
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