Swift Boat Shyster: Another Lie From John O'Neil

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Glocksman
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Post by Glocksman »

Elfdart wrote:Kerry said he was serving in Vietnam. He didn't say he was on land the whole time. Nice of you to quote only part of his record, Glocksman. But here's the part you left out:
June 8, 1967 – Kerry reports to USS Gridley-serves in several capacities.

February 9, 1968 – USS Gridley departs for a Western Pacific (WESTPAC) deployment, to engage in operations in support of the Vietnam War. Ship spends time in the Gulf of Tonkin off North Vietnam, at Subic Bay in the Philippines and in Wellington, New Zealand.

February 10, 1968 – Kerry requests duty in Vietnam He lists his first preference for a position as an officer in charge of a Swift Boat (designated PCF for Patrol Craft Fast), his second as an officer in a patrol boat (designated PBR, for Patrol Boat River) squadron.

May 27, 1968 – USS Gridley sets sail for the US.
So, Kerry was serving in Vietnam in April of 1968, whether he set foot on land during that time or not. By your logic, if a sailor in WW2 said he served in Europe, but spent most or all of his time at sea in the Med or the North Atlantic, he's lying. That's horseshit and you know it.

Are you dense or merely stupid?

Kerry said he was in Vietnam. He didn't say that he was in the Gulf of Tonkin on a cruiser or that he was in theater.

He said that he was in Vietnam and he was not.

Just how many sailors do you know anyway? In addition to my Uncle, several other members of my extended family were in both the Navy and the Coast Guard during both WW2 and Vietnam and I never heard one of them say 'I served in Europe' or 'I served in Vietnam'.

It was always phrased 'I served in the Med', 'I was in the Pacific', 'I served in the Atlantic', or 'I was stationed in the Tonkin Gulf'. It may come as a surprise to you, but sailors tend to think in terms of oceans or other bodies of water rather than countries.


Better grab that straw or you'll drown. :P
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Post by Glocksman »

Besides, all of this would be superfluous if Kerry would run on his Senate record instead of basically saying 'I'm a War Hero™. Vote for me'.

Exactly why isn't Kerry talking about his Senate career? Could it be that to get elected to the Senate from Massachusetts, you have to be a liberal, and that doesn't play well in a lot of states?


Nah, couldn't be. :roll:

If he'd run on his record in the Senate, then Vietnam would never have come up as the Bushies aren't too eager to have people take a close look where George W. was at back then.

Like I said, they're both swine and no matter who wins, the country is the loser. :cry:
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Post by Elfdart »

Rogue 9 wrote:
They are just proof that the truth hurts. If Kerry should be faulted for something, it's that he understated the atrocities US forces had committed.
Prove it, dumbass.
The Tip of the Iceberg:
Toledo Blade Report on Vietnam War "Tiger Force" Atrocity Is Only the Beginning


......... by Nick Turse November 10, 2003

On October 19, 2003, the Ohio-based newspaper the Toledo Blade launched a four-day series of investigative reports exposing a string of atrocities by an elite, volunteer, 45-man "Tiger Force" unit of the U.S. Army's 101st Airborne Division over the course of seven months in 1967. The Blade goes on to state that in 1971 the Army began a 4.5 year investigation of the alleged torture of prisoners, rapes of civilian women, the mutilation of bodies and killing of anywhere from nine to well over one hundred unarmed civilians, among other acts. The articles further report that the Army's inquiry concluded that 18 U.S. soldiers committed war crimes ranging from murder and assault to dereliction of duty. However, not one of the soldiers, even of those still on active duty at the time of the investigation, was ever court martialed in connection with the heinous crimes. Moreover, six suspected war criminals were allowed to resign from military service during the criminal investigations specifically to avoid prosecution (see: http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... TIGERFORCE).



The Toledo Blade articles represent some of the best reporting on a Vietnam War crime by any newspaper, during or since the end of the conflict. Unfortunately, the articles tell a story that was all too common. As a historian writing his dissertation on U.S. war crimes and atrocities during the Vietnam War, I have been immersed in just the sort of archival materials the Toledo Blade used in its pieces, but not simply for one incident but hundreds if not thousands of analogous events. I can safely, and sadly, say that the "Tiger Force" atrocities are merely the tip of the iceberg in regard to U.S.-perpetrated war crimes in Vietnam. However, much of the mainstream historical literature dealing with Vietnam War atrocities (and accompanying cover-ups and/or sham investigations), has been marginalized to a great extent -- aside from obligatory remarks concerning the My Lai massacre, which is, itself, often treated as an isolated event. Unfortunately, the otherwise excellent reporting of the Toledo Blade draws upon and feeds off this exceptionalist argument to a certain extent. As such, the true scope of U.S.-perpetrated atrocities is never fully addressed in the articles. The men of the "Tiger Force" are labeled as "Rogue GIs" and the authors simply mention the that Army "conducted 242 war-crimes investigations in Vietnam, [that] a third were substantiated, leading to 21 convictions... according to a review of records at the National Archives" – facts of dubious value that obscure the scope and number of war crimes perpetrated in Vietnam and feed the exceptionalist argument.



Even an accompanying Blade piece on "Other Vietnam Atrocities,"

(http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... /110190165) tends to decontextualize the "Tiger Force" incidents, treating them as fairly extraordinary events by listing only three other relatively well known atrocity incidents: former Senator, presidential candidate and Navy SEAL Bob Kerrey's raid on the hamlet of Thang Phong; the massacre at Son Thang -- sometimes referred to as the "Marine Corps' My Lai"; and the war crimes allegations of Lt. Col. Anthony Herbert -- most famously chronicled in his memoir Soldier. This short list, however, doesn't even hint at the scope and number of similar criminal acts.



For example, the Toledo Blade reports that its "review of thousands of classified Army documents, National Archives records, and radio logs reveals [the "Tiger Force"] ... carried out the longest series of atrocities in the Vietnam War [from May and November, 1967]..." (http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... /110190168). Unfortunately, this seven month atrocity-spree is not nearly the longest on record. Nor is it even the longest string of atrocities by one unit within its service branch. According to formerly classified Army documents, an investigation disclosed that from at least March 1968 through October 1969, "Vietnamese [civilian] detainees were subjected to maltreatment" by no less than twenty-three separate interrogators of the 172d Military Intelligence (MI) Detachment. The inquiry found that, in addition to using "electrical shock by means of a field telephone," an all too commonly used method of torture by Americans during the war, MI personnel also struck detainees with their fists, sticks and boards and employed a form of water torture which impaired prisoners' ability to breath.



Similar to the "Tiger Force" atrocities chronicled by the Blade, documents indicate that no disciplinary actions were taken against any of the individuals implicated in the long-running series of atrocities, including 172d MI personnel Norman Bowers, Franciszek Pyclik and Eberhard Gasper who were all on active duty at the time that the allegations were investigated by Army officials. In fact, in 1972, Bowers' commanding general pronounced that "no disciplinary or administrative action" would be taken against the suspected war criminal and in a formerly classified memorandum to the U.S. Army Chief of Staff, prepared by Colonel Murray Williams on behalf of Brigadier General R.G. Gard in January 1973, it was noted that the "...determination by commanders to take no action against three personnel on active duty who were suspected of committing an offense" had not been publicly acknowledged. Their crimes and identities kept a secret, Bowers, Pyclik and Gasper apparently escaped any prosecution, let alone punishment, for their alleged actions.



Similarly, the Toledo Blade pays particular attention to Sam Ybarra, a "notorious suspect," who was named in seven of the thirty "Tiger Force" war crimes allegations investigated by the Army -- including the rape and fatal stabbing of a 13-year-old girl and the brutal killing of a 15-year-old boy (http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... /110190160). Yet, Ybarra's notorious reputation may well pale in comparison to that of Sergeant Roy E. "the Bummer" Bumgarner, a soldier who served with the 1st Cavalry Division and later the 173d Airborne Brigade. According to a former commander, "the Bummer" was rumored to have "personally killed over 1,500 people" during a forty-two week stretch in Vietnam. Even if the number was exaggerated, clues on how Bumgarner may have obtained high "body counts" came to light in the course of an Army criminal investigation of an incident that took place on February 25, 1969. According to investigation documents, Bumgarner and a subordinate rounded up three civilians found working in a rice paddy, marched them to a secluded area and murdered them. "The Bummer" then arranged the bodies on the ground with their heads together and a grenade was exploded next to them in an attempt to cover-up their crime. Assorted weapons were then planted near the mutilated corpses to make them appear to have been enemy troops.



During an Army criminal investigation of the incident, men in Bumgarner's unit told investigators that they had heard rumors of the sergeant carrying out similar acts in the past. Said one soldier in a sworn statement to Army investigators:



"I've heard of Bumgarner doing it before -- planting weapons on bodies when there is doubt as to their military status. I've heard quite a few rumors about Bumgarner killing unarmed people. Only a couple weeks ago I heard that Bumgarner had killed a Vietnamese girl and two younger kids (boys), who didn't have any weapons."



Unlike Sam Ybarra, who had been discharged from the military by the time the allegations against him came to light and then refused to cooperate with investigators, "the Bummer" was charged with premeditated murder and tried by general court martial. He was convicted only of manslaughter and his punishment consisted merely of a demotion in rank and a fine of $97 a month for six months. Moreover, after six months, Bumgarner promptly re-enlisted in the Army. His first and only choice of assignments -- Vietnam. Records indicate he got his wish!



Military records demonstrate that the "Tiger Force" atrocities are only the tip of a vast submerged history of atrocities in Vietnam. In fact, while most atrocities were likely never chronicled or reported, the archival record is still rife with incidents analogous to those profiled in the Blade articles, including the following atrocities chronicled in formerly classified Army documents:



A November 1966 incident in which an officer in the Army's Fourth Infantry Division, severed an ear from a Vietnamese corpse and affixed it to the radio antenna of a jeep as an ornament. The officer was given a non-judicial punishment and a letter of reprimand.



An August 1967 atrocity in which a 13-year-old Vietnamese child was raped by American MI interrogator of the Army's 196th Infantry Brigade. The soldier was convicted only of indecent acts with a child and assault. He served seven months and sixteen days for his crime.



A September 1967 incident in which an American sergeant killed two Vietnamese children -- executing one at point blank range with a bullet to the head. Tried by general court martial in 1970, the sergeant pleaded guilty to, and was found guilty of, unpremeditated murder. He was, however, sentenced to no punishment.



An atrocity that took place on February 4, 1968, just over a month before the My Lai massacre, in the same province by a man from the same division (Americal). The soldier admitted to his commanding officer and other men of his unit that he gunned down three civilians as they worked in a field. A CID investigation substantiated his confession and charges of premeditated murder were preferred against him. The soldier requested a discharge, which was granted by the commanding general of the Americal Division, in lieu of court martial proceedings.



A series of atrocities similar to, and occurring the same year as, the "Tiger Force" war crimes in which one unit allegedly engaged in an orgy of murder, rape and mutilation, over the course of several months.



While not yielding the high-end body count estimate of the "Tiger Force" series of atrocities, the above incidents begin to demonstrate the ubiquity of the commission of atrocities on the part of American forces during the Vietnam War. Certainly, war crimes, such as murder, rape and mutilation were not an everyday affair for American combat soldiers in Vietnam, however, such acts were also by no means as exceptional as often portrayed in recent historical literature or as tacitly alluded to in the Blade articles.



The excellent investigative reporting of the Toledo Blade is to be commended for shedding light on war crimes committed by American soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division in 1967. However, it is equally important to understand that the "Tiger Force" atrocities were not the mere result of "Rogue GIs" but instead stem from what historian Christian Appy has termed the American "doctrine of atrocity" during the Vietnam War -- a strategy built upon official U.S. dictums relating to the body count, free-fire zones, search and destroy tactics and the strategy of attrition as well as unofficial tenets such as "kill anything that moves," intoned during the "Tiger Force" atrocities and in countless other atrocity tales, or the "mere gook rule" which held that "If its dead and Vietnamese, it's VC." Further, it must also be recognized that the "Tiger Force" atrocities, the My Lai massacre, the Herbert allegations and the few other better-known war crimes were not isolated or tangentially-related incidents, but instead are only the most spectacular or best publicized of what was an on-going string of atrocities, large and small, that spanned the entire duration of the war.



The headline of one Blade article proclaims, "Earlier Tiger Force probe could have averted My Lai carnage," referring to the fact that the 101st Airborne Division's "Tiger Force" troops operated in the same province (Quang Ngai), with the same mission (search and destroy) months before the Americal Division's men committed their war crimes. But atrocities were not a localized problem or one that only emerged in 1967. Instead, the pervasive disregard for the laws of war had begun prior to U.S. buildup in 1965 and had roots in earlier conflicts. Only by recognizing these facts can we hope to begin to understand the "Tiger Force" atrocities and the history of American war crimes in Vietnam, writ large.



(Nick Turse is a Columbia University graduate student completing a
dissertation on American war crimes during the Vietnam War.)
I don't believe Kerry mentioned the rape and murder of any 13-year-old girls. If you want absolute proof that war crimes were condoned at the highest levels, keep in mind that after Calley was finally convicted of murder, Nixon commuted his sentence and let him go.
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Post by Elfdart »

Glocksman wrote:Besides, all of this would be superfluous if Kerry would run on his Senate record instead of basically saying 'I'm a War Hero™. Vote for me'.

Exactly why isn't Kerry talking about his Senate career? Could it be that to get elected to the Senate from Massachusetts, you have to be a liberal, and that doesn't play well in a lot of states?


Nah, couldn't be. :roll:

If he'd run on his record in the Senate, then Vietnam would never have come up as the Bushies aren't too eager to have people take a close look where George W. was at back then.



Like I said, they're both swine and no matter who wins, the country is the loser. :cry:
Kerry brought up his service for four reasons:

1) He's proud of his service overall -and should be.
2) SF Lt. Jim Rassman, who hadn't seen Kerry in a long time came out of retirement a testified to Kerry's courage and integrity -and so did the crew members of his boat.
3) Douglas Brinkley, a widely respected historian, wrote a bestselling book about Kerry's time in Vietnam
4) The Bush slime machine had already smeared John McCain and Max Cleland, both of whom assumed everyone knew about their service and that anyone impugning it is an asshole. They thought wrong.

McCain was accused of being a traitor and a Vietnamese agent who snitched on his fellow POWs. Then when he became angry about it was accused of being unbalanced by supporters of the Smirking Chimp. Sound familiar?

Cleland was accused of violating his oath to defend the nation (after losing three limbs in Vietnam) and his draft-dodger opponent ran an ad in which the face of Osama turned into the face of Saddam, then turned into Max Cleland.

Kerry made sure people knew he fought in Vietnam BEFORE Chicken George's stooges slimed him and it has worked. In spite of the ads and the free media given to the Scumbags, Kerry and Bush are still even (within the margin of error) and Kerry is ahead in more states with more electoral votes. What's more, Bush's cowardice and dishonesty have been exposed once again. For the last several days the stories coming out have been that new eyewitnesses and documents back Kerry.
'What happened happened'
A career military man, Lambert is no fan of Kerry’s either. He doesn’t like Kerry’s post-Vietnam anti-war activity and doesn’t plan to vote for him.

“I don’t like the man himself,” Lambert said, “but I think what happened happened, and he was there.”

A March 1969 Navy report located by The Associated Press this week supports Lambert’s version. The report twice mentions the incident and both times calls it “an enemy initiated firefight” that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry’s.

Kerry’s Bronze Star was awarded for his pulling Special Forces Lt. Jim Rassmann, who had been blown off the boat, out of the river. Rassmann, who is retired and lives in Florence, Ore., has said repeatedly that the boats were under fire, as have other witnesses. Lambert didn’t see that rescue because Kerry was farther down the river and “I was busy pulling my own boat officer (Thurlow) out of the water.”

Thurlow could not be reached for comment about Lambert’s recollections.

New stories about the Scumbags revolve around their lies being exposed.
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Post by Glocksman »

Yet even more questions about Kerry
In the midst of the controversy between the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and Kerry campaign representatives about Kerry's service in Vietnam, new questions have arisen.

The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.

But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a "Silver Star with combat V."

But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."

Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.

Fake claims not uncommon



B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.

Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.

Kerry's Web site also lists two different citations for the Silver Star. One was issued by the commander in chief of the Pacific Command (CINCPAC), Adm. John Hyland. The other, issued by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman during the Reagan administration, contained some revisions and additional language. "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself... ."

One award, three citations



But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment captured and a body count of dead enemy.

Maj. Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Vietnam veteran, calls the issuance of three citations for the same medal "bizarre." Milavic hosts Milinet, an Internet forum popular with the military community that is intended "to provide a forum in military/political affairs."

Normally in the case of a lost citation, Milavec points out, the awardee simply asked for a copy to be sent to him from his service personnel records office where it remains on file. "I have never heard of multi-citations from three different people for the same medal award," he said. Nor has Burkett: "It is even stranger to have three different descriptions of the awardee's conduct in the citations for the same award."

So far, there are also two varying citations for Kerry's Bronze Star, one by Zumwalt and the other by Lehman as secretary of the Navy, both posted on johnkerry.com.

Kerry's Web site also carries a DD215 form revising his DD214, issued March 12, 2001, which adds four bronze campaign stars to his Vietnam service medal. The campaign stars are issued for participation in any of the 17 Department of Defense named campaigns that extended from 1962 to the cease-fire in 1973.

However, according to the Navy spokesman, Kerry should only have two campaign stars: one for "Counteroffensive, Phase VI," and one for "Tet69, Counteroffensive."

94 pages of records unreleased?



Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."

What could that more than 100 pages contain? Questions have been raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.

Experts point out that even the official military records get screwed up. Milavic is trying to get mistakes in his own DD214 file corrected. In his opinion, "these entries are not prima facie evidence of lying or unethical behavior on the part of Kerry or anyone else with screwed-up DD214s."

Burkett, who has spent years working with the FBI, Department of Justice and all of the military services uncovering fraudulent files in the official records, is less charitable: "The multiple citations and variations in the official record are reason for suspicion in itself, even disregarding the current swift boat veterans' controversy."

Heh. Looks like there are even more questions popping up.


Kerry brought up his service for four reasons:
He's done more than just 'brought it up'. Kerry should have just made note of his service and run on his past 20 years in Congress. Instead he chose to push the war record and ignore his congressional record. By doing so, he's made the war record a legit subject for probing and criticism.

This strategy is possibly to his own detriment. There's a Bush ad that played a clip of Kerry talking about intelligence reform being vital and then states that in the year after 9/11, Kerry missed every meeting of the Intelligence Committee he was a member of. If nothing else, he ought to start letting all of this Vietnam bullshit fade and start talking about what he's accomplished as a Senator.
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Post by Durandal »

I've got to wonder, when was the last time Kerry brought up his military record when it wasn't in response to the relentless attacks on him by various right-wing groups? As far as I can tell, all he's done is say things like, "You know, I've been to war, and I think it should be a last resort." How is that "running on his record"? From everything I've seen, he mentions his record where it is applicable and talks about other things when it is not.

The guy does have other things to say, and I'm beginning to think that this constant smearing by the right is just to get him to repeatedly bring up his record so they can chide him for running solely on it.

As for the this ridiculous "third citation" business ... so what? What does that prove? What does it even imply? Oh, so it was bizarre. That's it?

And about the silver star with combat V? That's a giant fucking lie, but not on the part of Kerry.
JohnKerry.com wrote:Lt. John Kerry's leadership, courage, and sacrifice earned him a Silver Star, the Navy's fifth highest medal, a Bronze Star with Combat V, and three Purple Hearts, awarded for wounds received in combat.
And, as you can see here, the V device can, in fact, be worn with a Bronze Star. The reason it's not given out with Silver Stars is because the Silver Star itself indicates valor. Good thing Kerry never claimed that he received a V device with his Silver Star.

My my, the Right must hate Google.

EDIT: And by the way, yes, Kerry's DD214 on his website does list "Silver Star with Combat V." However, was it Kerry who wrote that thing up? I seriously doubt it. Isn't it more likely that it's just a typo on the part of whoever did, especially given that he only lists the Bronze Star with Combat V on his service page, the one people are more likely to read?
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Post by Ender »

I'm just curious, am I the only one who regards this kind of crap as cheating to win the election?
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Post by Elfdart »

When my dad died, we went through a lot of his old pictures, documents and received some stuff from Fort Bragg and the VA. According to one form he was 6'3". He was actually 5'11" if he stood on the balls of his feet -maybe.

His DD-214 misspelled his last name, too. I guess that means he didn't serve in Vietnam. :roll:
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Post by Elfdart »

Ender wrote:I'm just curious, am I the only one who regards this kind of crap as cheating to win the election?
It's the MO of Bush and his people: Let others defame your opponent, then pretend to be "troubled" by it -then try to confuse the issue.

The Swifty Scumbags, as well as Ted Sampley only slithered out when Bush was lagging behind against Kerry and McCain, respectively. Now Bush is saying he never attacked Kerry's war record (he let his henchmen and supporters do it for him) and wants all independent TV ads yanked.

This is apples and rutabegas. MoveOn has run ads that at least are based in fact. The Swift boat ads are chock full of lies. They are not equal. Bush only wants the independent ads yanked because he knows the left-leaning ones are about to retaliate against him for the Scumbag ads. He's like a boxer who threw a suckerpunch before the first bell and then wants the round to end immediately because he knows he might just get his ass kicked.
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Post by MKSheppard »

JFK's enlistment paper

It looks like Kerry joined the Reserves and got called up!! He never "volunteered". Coulda happened to Bush, but it happened to kerry. Kerry tried to avoid the war too.

*******

"Kerry's service record indicates that on 18 February 1966 he enlisted in the USNR

That is correct.

Kerry enlisted in the US Navy Reserves as a Reservist...See block 4.

Kerry enlisted in the reserves for inactive duty. See block 15.
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Post by Iceberg »

Shep, do you TRY to be a giant cunt? Or does it just come naturally by this point?
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Iceberg wrote:Shep, do you TRY to be a giant cunt? Or does it just come naturally by this point?
:twisted: I love goring oxes :twisted:
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Post by Glocksman »

Durandal wrote:I've got to wonder, when was the last time Kerry brought up his military record when it wasn't in response to the relentless attacks on him by various right-wing groups? As far as I can tell, all he's done is say things like, "You know, I've been to war, and I think it should be a last resort." How is that "running on his record"? From everything I've seen, he mentions his record where it is applicable and talks about other things when it is not.
Well, it's not as if the attacks weren't invited.
DNC Chairman welcomes military service debate
On Sunday, Terry McAuliffe, the Democratic national committee chairman, told ABC’s This Week programme that he would welcome a debate over military service if Mr Kerry won the party’s nomination.

"I look forward to that debate - when John Kerry, a war hero with a chest full of medals, is standing next to George Bush, a man who was AWOL in the Alabama National Guard," Mr McAuliffe said. "George Bush never served in our military in our country. He didn’t show up when he should have showed up."

Considering how controversial Kerry's service record and his exaggerations of it have become, that's as stupid as Bush's 'bring it on' remark was.

EDIT: And by the way, yes, Kerry's DD214 on his website does list "Silver Star with Combat V." However, was it Kerry who wrote that thing up? I seriously doubt it. Isn't it more likely that it's just a typo on the part of whoever did, especially given that he only lists the Bronze Star with Combat V on his service page, the one people are more likely to read?
I'm sure it is a typo. Some clerk probably did a cut and paste of 'w/Combat V' from a Bronze Star citation.
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Post by Glocksman »

It's getting worse for Kerry.

'Trying to acquire Purple Hearts'
John Kerry has presented his Vietnam record as his major qualification to be president of the United States. It is, therefore, the duty of the American public to scrutinize that record carefully. And it is the duty of candidate John Kerry to facilitate that scrutiny. If all the senator's claims about his four months in Vietnam are factual, it would be to his great advantage to facilitate such scrutiny.
Before we get to his record in Vietnam, however, we should examine the widespread misconception about how he got to Vietnam. The oft-repeated claim that Mr. Kerry volunteered to go to Vietnam misleads: He apparently volunteered only after the draft deferment he had applied for was turned down — thus allowing him to choose service in the Navy to avoid being drafted into the Army.

I served as a combat surgeon in DaNang, (U.S. Naval Support Hospital) from Dec. 10, 1967, through Dec. 11, 1968. While there, I evaluated and treated hundreds of severely wounded combatants.
During my year in DaNang, a few combatants urged me to verify small abrasions as "wounds" so they could get a Purple Heart. Each freely admitted trying to acquire Purple Hearts as rapidly as possible to take advantage of the policy allowing those with three Purple Hearts to apply to leave Vietnam early. I refused them. But some went shopping for another opinion. Unfortunately, we had some antiwar physicians in Vietnam who were happy to become accomplices in these frauds. Most with valid Purple Hearts didn't need to apply to leave Vietnam: The seriousness of their wounds demanded it.
Lt. John Kerry's collecting three Purple Hearts within 100 days — all for wounds too minor to require hospitalization — recalls the distasteful memories of having to deal with those few miscreants in DaNang. More disturbing is the revelation that crewmen on Mr. Kerry's boat denied they had received any gunfire from shore at the time when Lt. Kerry claimed such gunfire had caused his wound. The doctor who disapproved Lt. Kerry's application for his first Purple Heart for that wound agreed that the tiny metal splinter sticking in the skin of his arm was inconsistent with enemy gunfire from shore. His crewmates claimed that Lt. Kerry, himself, had fired a grenade launcher from the boat striking a rock on the nearby shore — and his wound was from a metal splinter from the grenade that ricocheted back, striking him in the arm.
Is there any way we can determine who was telling the truth about this first Purple Heart? Yes, there is. The type of wound can reveal much about the weapon that caused it. The tiny sliver of metal and its very superficial penetration is typical of fragments from explosive devices — like grenades. It would not have resulted from the most likely gunfire from shore — small arms rifle fire. The AK 47 rifle, used by the enemy, fires a 30-caliber bullet, which is 50 times or more as heavy as the sliver of metal sticking in Lt. Kerry's skin. Such a bullet would have passed through any part of his body it struck, and certainly no part of it would have remained sticking in his skin.
In the absence of the medical records that Mr. Kerry apparently declines to make public, the only details we have about his second and third Purple Hearts are that he also based them on wounds too minor to require hospitalization. My reason for refusing to verify insignificant wounds as the basis for a Purple Heart was the regulation covering Purple Heart awards. In Part B, Paragraph 2, of the Army Purple Heart Regulation (600-8-22 of 25 February 1995), we find "the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer."
Dr. Louis Letson was entirely correct in turning down Lt. Kerry's first Purple Heart — even if the wound had been the result of enemy action. Can there be any doubt that the tiny metal sliver could have been removed easily, and safely, by a Navy corpsman? It certainly did not "require" treatment by a medical officer (an MD).
Purple Hearts are not supposed to be awarded for self-inflicted wounds, nor for wounds too minor to require treatment by a physician. So where and how did Lt. Kerry eventually obtain a Purple Heart for his first wound? Nobody seems to know. Only his medical records will tell — and the American public needs that information to evaluate candidate Kerry's qualifications and candor.
The highly unlikely occurrence of being wounded three times within 100 days, in the very beginning of a tour of duty, and all three wounds being so minor that none required hospitalization, would seem sufficient cause for further investigation.Addingthe inconsistencies surrounding Lt. Kerry's first Purple Heart should make mandatory a thorough scrutiny of his medical records by someone highly qualified to interpret military medical records, and familiar with the regulations on the qualifications for the Purple Heart Medal, to determine if the wounds for which Lt. Kerry was awarded the Purple Heart Medal were serious enough to "require" treatment by a medical officer, as called for by the Purple Heart regulation.
Mr. Kerry has made his Vietnam War record the centerpiece of his campaign. This demands a thorough objective evaluation of his medical records to determine if the three Purple Hearts that allowed him to leave Vietnam after only four months of duty were justified. This evaluation needs to be done before the election.

Dr. Martin L. Fackler served as a combat surgeon in Vietman in 1968. A fellow of both the American College of Surgeons and the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, he also is an author, expert witness and lecturer on wound ballistics and surgery, and former director of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory at Presidio.
Admiral speaks out, disputes Kerry's account of 1st wound

This is a Robert Novak piece, so keep that in mind.
NEW YORK -- Retired Rear Adm. William L. Schachte Jr. said Thursday in his first on-the-record interview about the swift boat veterans dispute that "I was absolutely in the skimmer" in the early morning on Dec. 2, 1968, when Lt. (j.g.) John Kerry was involved in an incident that led to his first Purple Heart.





"Kerry nicked himself with a M-79 [grenade launcher]," Schachte said in a telephone interview from his home in Charleston, S.C. He said, "Kerry requested a Purple Heart."

Schachte, a lieutenant, said he was in command of the small boat called a Boston whaler or skimmer, with Kerry aboard in his first combat mission in the Vietnam War. The third crew member was an enlisted man, whose name Schachte did not remember.

Two enlisted men who appeared at the podium with Kerry at the Democratic National Convention in Boston have asserted that they were alone in the small boat with Kerry, with no other officer present. Schachte said it "was not possible" for Kerry to have gone out alone so soon after joining the swift boat command in late November 1968.

Kerry supporters said no critics of the Democratic presidential nominee ever were aboard a boat with him in combat. Washington lawyer Lanny Davis has contended that Schachte was not aboard the Boston whaler and says the statement that Schachte was aboard in Unfit for Command undermines that critical book's credibility.

Schachte until now has refused to speak out publicly on this question and agreed to give only two interviews. One was a television interview with Lisa Meyers of NBC News, for broadcast Thursday night. The second was a print interview with me, for publication today.

Schachte described the use of the skimmer operating very close to shore as a technique that he personally designed to flush out enemy forces so that the larger swift boats could move in. Around 3 a.m. on Dec. 2, Schachte said, the skimmer -- code-named "Batman" -- fired a hand-held flare. He said that after Kerry's M-16 rifle jammed, the new officer picked up the M-79 and, "I heard a 'thunk.' There was no fire from the enemy," he said.

Patrick Runyon and William Zaladonis are the two enlisted men who said they were aboard the skimmer and did not know Schachte. However, two other former officers interviewed Thursday confirmed that Schachte was the originator of the technique and always was aboard the Boston whaler for these missions.

Grant Hibbard, who as a lieutenant commander was Schachte's superior officer, confirmed that Schachte always went on these skimmer missions and said, "I don't think he [Kerry] was alone" on his first assignment. Hibbard said he had told Kerry to "forget it" when he asked for a Purple Heart.

Ted Peck, another swift boat commander, said, "I remember Bill [Schachte] telling me it didn't happen" -- that is, Kerry getting an enemy-inflicted wound. He said it would be "impossible" for Kerry to have been in the skimmer without Schachte.

"I was astonished by Kerry's version" [in his book Tour of Duty] of what happened Dec. 2, Schachte said Thursday. When asked to support the Kerry critics in the swift boat controversy, Schachte said, "I didn't want to get involved." But he said he gradually began to change his mind when he saw his own involvement and credibility challenged, starting with Davis on CNN's "Crossfire" on Aug. 12.

The next time he saw Kerry after the first Purple Heart incident, Schachte said, was "about 20 years" later on the U.S. Senate subway in the basement of the Russell Senate Office Building. "I called, 'Hey, John.' He replied, 'Batman.' I was absolutely amazed by his memory." He said they "talked about having lunch" but never did it.

Schachte said he never has been contacted by or talked to anybody in the Bush-Cheney campaign or any Republican organization. He said he has been a political independent who votes for candidates of both parties
Finally, the SecNav at the time has no memory of writing the citation that bears his signature.

Kerry citation a 'total mystery' to ex-Navy chief
Former Navy Secretary John Lehman has no idea where a Silver Star citation displayed on Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's campaign Web site came from, he said Friday. The citation appears over Lehman's signature.

"It is a total mystery to me. I never saw it. I never signed it. I never approved it. And the additional language it contains was not written by me," he said.

The additional language varied from the two previous citations, signed first by Adm. Elmo Zumwalt and then Adm. John Hyland, which themselves differ. The new material added in the Lehman citation reads in part: "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (jg) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself...."

Asked how the citation could have been executed over his signature without his knowledge, Lehman said: "I have no idea. I can only imagine they were signed by an autopen." The autopen is a device often used in the routine execution of executive documents in government.

Kerry senior adviser Michael Meehan could not be reached for comment on Kerry's records.


Thomas Lipscomb is chairman of the Center for the Digital Future in New York

In Kerry's defense, the citation may have been signed by an autopen operated by someone authorized to use it in the Secretary's behalf.

Perhaps the Navy has more information.
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Deleted Shep's reposting of the same thing Glocksman posted.
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Regarding Novak's piece:
In his August 27 column, syndicated columnist and CNN Crossfire co-host Robert Novak presented his interview with retired Rear Admiral William L. Schachte Jr. -- who claims to have been the commander on the December 2, 1968, mission for which the U.S. Navy awarded Senator John Kerry (D-MA) his first Purple Heart -- as decisive evidence supporting allegations by the anti-Kerry group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that Kerry did not deserve the award because his wound was self-inflicted and minor. Having landed what he called Schachte's "first on-the-record interview about the Swift Boat Vets dispute," Novak quoted Schachte claiming that he was on Kerry's crew for the mission and denying that the boat received hostile fire; the Swift Boat Vets' own website and the accounts of crewmen present on Kerry's boat that night contradict his claims.

Kerry won his first Purple Heart for "hrapnel in left arm above elbow," according to documents reviewed by The New York Times. Gunfire broke out after "Kerry's crew spotted some people running from a sampan, a flat-bottomed boat, to a nearby shoreline," according to an April 14 Boston Globe article. Schachte, however, told Novak that "Kerry nicked himself with a M-79 (grenade launcher)." He added, "Kerry requested a Purple Heart." Schachte also said, "There was no fire from the enemy."

The account of the incident on Swift Boat Vets' own website contradicts Schachte's assertion, also in Novak's column, that Schachte was the commander on Kerry's boat. According to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth's website (archived copy here):

The action that led to John Kerry's first Purple Heart occurred on December 2, 1968, during the month that he was undergoing training with Coastal Division 14 at Cam Ranh Bay. While waiting to receive his own Swift boat command, Kerry volunteered for a nighttime patrol mission commanding a small, foam-filled "skimmer" craft with two enlisted men.

The two enlisted men who joined Kerry on the December 2, 1968, mission, William Zaladonis and Patrick Runyon, have both insisted (here and here) that no one apart from Kerry was with them on the boat that night. "There definitely was not a fourth," Runyon told The Boston Globe.

The same Globe article also notes that both Zaladonis and Runyon believe that their skimmer received enemy fire, though they are not completely certain. Both also doubt the crew even carried an M-79 -- the weapon with which Schachte claims Kerry was injured -- on the boat that night:

"I am reasonably sure we didn't have an M-79," Zaladonis said. "I didn't see one. I don't remember it."

Runyon says the only weapons the trio had were an M-60 machine gun, two M-16 combat rifles, and, possibly, a .45 caliber pistol. Is he 100 percent sure there wasn't an M-79 grenade launcher in the boat?

"I wouldn't say 100 percent, but I know 100 percent certain that we didn't shoot them," replies Runyon.

In an August 20 New York Times article, Runyon expressed resentment at how Swift Boat Veterans for Truth had distorted his version of events after he -- mistakenly believing Swift Boat Vets was a pro-Kerry group -- sent the group a statement describing the skimmer incident. "Runyon said the edited version was stripped of all references to enemy combat, making it look like just another night in the Mekong Delta. 'It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire,' he said. 'He [the SBVT investigator] made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the scariest night of my life.'"
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Post by Glocksman »

Snopes isn't the be-all and end-all authority on the topic.

Dr. Fackler says something else entirely:
More disturbing is the revelation that crewmen on Mr. Kerry's boat denied they had received any gunfire from shore at the time when Lt. Kerry claimed such gunfire had caused his wound. The doctor who disapproved Lt. Kerry's application for his first Purple Heart for that wound agreed that the tiny metal splinter sticking in the skin of his arm was inconsistent with enemy gunfire from shore. His crewmates claimed that Lt. Kerry, himself, had fired a grenade launcher from the boat striking a rock on the nearby shore — and his wound was from a metal splinter from the grenade that ricocheted back, striking him in the arm
I'd love to know where Fackler got the information about his crewmates stating that Kerry injured himself with a grenade launcher because that directly contradicts what Zaladonis said. Did Runyon say it?


Fackler's on firmer ground with this:
Is there any way we can determine who was telling the truth about this first Purple Heart? Yes, there is. The type of wound can reveal much about the weapon that caused it. The tiny sliver of metal and its very superficial penetration is typical of fragments from explosive devices — like grenades. It would not have resulted from the most likely gunfire from shore — small arms rifle fire. The AK 47 rifle, used by the enemy, fires a 30-caliber bullet, which is 50 times or more as heavy as the sliver of metal sticking in Lt. Kerry's skin. Such a bullet would have passed through any part of his body it struck, and certainly no part of it would have remained sticking in his skin.
It could have been an RPG rocket fragment, but an RPG hitting a swift boat would have caused a lot more wounds and probably have sunk the boat.
Another possible explanation is that an AK bullet struck the edge of a railing and a piece of the bullet jacket or fragment of metal from the railing became shrapnel.

The highly unlikely occurrence of being wounded three times within 100 days, in the very beginning of a tour of duty, and all three wounds being so minor that none required hospitalization, would seem sufficient cause for further investigation. Adding the inconsistencies surrounding Lt. Kerry's first Purple Heart should make mandatory a thorough scrutiny of his medical records by someone highly qualified to interpret military medical records, and familiar with the regulations on the qualifications for the Purple Heart Medal, to determine if the wounds for which Lt. Kerry was awarded the Purple Heart Medal were serious enough to "require" treatment by a medical officer, as called for by the Purple Heart regulation.
Purple Hearts are not supposed to be awarded for self-inflicted wounds, nor for wounds too minor to require treatment by a physician. So where and how did Lt. Kerry eventually obtain a Purple Heart for his first wound? Nobody seems to know. Only his medical records will tell — and the American public needs that information to evaluate candidate Kerry's qualifications and candor.
If Fackler is correct, there are still 'fishy' circumstances surrounding Kerry's PH's. Kerry could end all of this by releasing all of his records. In my mind, the fact that he won't release all of his records is what gives credibility to charges such as this.
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Glocksman wrote:It could have been an RPG rocket fragment, but an RPG hitting a swift boat would have caused a lot more wounds and probably have sunk the boat. Another possible explanation is that an AK bullet struck the edge of a railing and a piece of the bullet jacket or fragment of metal from the railing became shrapnel.
If memory serves, Kerry's boat was very close to shore during this incident. It's not at all unlikely that the RPG exploded on shore and sent shrapnel in the boat's direction.
If Fackler is correct, there are still 'fishy' circumstances surrounding Kerry's PH's. Kerry could end all of this by releasing all of his records. In my mind, the fact that he won't release all of his records is what gives credibility to charges such as this.
Okay, for just a second, let's indulge this "fishy circumstances" crap. Let's say that Kerry's shrapnel wound was, in fact, pretty minor, and he shouldn't have gotten a Purple Heart for it. Then what would we conclude about Kerry? Did he strong-arm the Navy into giving him that Purple Heart? No. It was issued to him.

And why should Kerry release his medical records? The Navy has those records, and they issued a Purple Heart based on them. I fail to see how that gives any credibility to the assholes crowing about how the records must contain information that discredit's the issuance of a Purple Heart to Kerry.

This is yet another witch hunt being whistled up by the right. Maybe they're finally getting bored of demonizing Clinton. Calling for a public investigation into the Navy's issuance of a Purple Heart to a Junior-grade Lieutenant over 30 years ago? Who gives a shit? These people will find any inconsistency they can and just blow it up beyond any reasonable proportion (as exemplified perfectly in that "V device" crap). Ender is exactly correct. This is cheating to win an election.
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Post by Glocksman »

Okay, for just a second, let's indulge this "fishy circumstances" crap. Let's say that Kerry's shrapnel wound was, in fact, pretty minor, and he shouldn't have gotten a Purple Heart for it. Then what would we conclude about Kerry? Did he strong-arm the Navy into giving him that Purple Heart? No. It was issued to him.
Issued, yes, but under what circumstances? Officers arranging for the award of medals they didn't really earn isn't new and wasn't confined to Vietnam.

During WW2, there were several Generals who got caught issuing themselves CIB's and were later ordered to take them off.

I'm not sure who to believe but every time I turn around there's more questions, and the documents that could answer them are currently being witheld by the Kerry camp.

Of course I can't help but wonder if this is all a big trap by Kerry: let a big a deal as possible be created about this and then when it reaches a crescendo, take the wind out of the enemy's sails by releasing all the documentation proving them wrong.
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Glocksman wrote:Issued, yes, but under what circumstances? Officers arranging for the award of medals they didn't really earn isn't new and wasn't confined to Vietnam.
I'm sure it wasn't. However, please provide evidence that Kerry "arranged" for his Purple Hearts. He was a junior-grade lieutenant ... did he have pictures of his superior with a prostitute or something? How much power do you really think he wielded?
During WW2, there were several Generals who got caught issuing themselves CIB's and were later ordered to take them off.
And Kerry was in a position to issue a medal to himself?
I'm not sure who to believe but every time I turn around there's more questions, and the documents that could answer them are currently being witheld by the Kerry camp.
Of course there are. That's what a smear campaign does. Point out an uncertainty or inconsistency and then give the people watching a tiny nudge in the "conspiracy theory" direction, even if that inconsistency is perfectly explainable through something mundane and ordinary, like a typo. Again, I refer you to that "V device" nonsense.

The pattern here is that these people are that these people are staying away from attacking Kerry's record itself. Small wonder. His record is fucking exemplary and full of praise from everyone he served under. Rather, they will nitpick (like Thomas Lipscomb, that idiot who wrote about the combat V in his article titled "The Plot Thickens" :roll:) or simply lie outrightly (like the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth). All the controversy has surrounded his Purple Hearts, not his Silver and Bronze Stars, because the actions he took to earn those showed unquestionable valor and courage. No, they ignore that and try to convince everyone that he's a pussy who was somehow issued medals that he didn't deserve (as if you can break into the Military Building and steal medals) just so he could get out of Vietnam early after being assigned to one of the most dangerous outfits.

People like the SBVT are a particularly low form of scum: the opportunistic kind. Sure, they had no problems when Kerry was running for the Senate; they could deal with a so-called liar just being a lowly senator. But president? Oh that's just going too far. Time to suddenly recall memories from 30 years ago with perfect clarity and start the FUD cannons!
Of course I can't help but wonder if this is all a big trap by Kerry: let a big a deal as possible be created about this and then when it reaches a crescendo, take the wind out of the enemy's sails by releasing all the documentation proving them wrong.
I'd be laughing for several weeks straight if that was the case, and it would be a brilliant move on his part.
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Post by Andrew J. »

The thing about this whole controversy over medals and military service is this: the medals and reports have been a matter of public record for 35 years. If the people in this swift boat group were really so sure that Kerry didn't earn some of his medals, why didn't they say anything earlier? They didn't even say anything during Kerry's Senate elections.
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Andrew J. wrote:The thing about this whole controversy over medals and military service is this: the medals and reports have been a matter of public record for 35 years. If the people in this swift boat group were really so sure that Kerry didn't earn some of his medals, why didn't they say anything earlier? They didn't even say anything during Kerry's Senate elections.
Because they're opportunistic pieces of shit, as I said before.
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Post by Iceberg »

Having seen many politicians' careers killed by opportunistic pieces of shit like this, I've taken a new adage where political scandals are concerned:

"Where there's smoke, there's probably a smoke machine."
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Iceberg wrote:Having seen many politicians' careers killed by opportunistic pieces of shit like this, I've taken a new adage where political scandals are concerned:

"Where there's smoke, there's probably a smoke machine."
Indeed, especially when it comes to veterans who have fallen out of favor of the Republican party.
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