Borg vs Firearms

[Natorgator]

Don't believe its possible? Well remember that episode when Worf and Troi were stuck on that wild west holodeck program with the safeties off, and the computer made a holo figure of Data into the evil bad guy? At the end of that, Worf was forced into a shoot out by the holo Data. and guess what? Worf reconfigured his comm badge (I think?) to make a personal defense shield. Data fired his gun (which was an old revolver, you know the type, they are like small cannon with massive recoil) and Worf stood there completely still while the bullets bounced off. There is a perfect example of a KE absorbing shield for you. And since the Borg downloaded all the data on the Enterprise, they would have that tech (if they didn't already).

That thing only worked for a few shots, and then drained its power. Moreover, it was attached to a relatively large device, not microscopic internal implants.

Do the devices necessarily have to be microscopic? At the very least, his example shows that personal shield generators are feasible with treknology.

[Prozac the Robert]

Ignoring borg drones for a moment: If we can have faster than light travel (without affecting causality even), mass lightening, Heisenberg compensators, etc. then I see no reason to think that more magic could be used to send momentum elsewhere and convert kinetic energy to something else.

Back to the drones though, I can't really see a good reason to stop bullets but not close combat weapons.

[Gustav32Vasa]

Back to the drones though, I can't really see a good reason to stop bullets but not close combat weapons.

You can kill from distance with a gun. If you have to use close combat weapons you must get close to the drone, making it easier for it to assimilate you.

[Admiral_Handsome]

Quote:
I am not suggesting that a Borg shield is merely an impenetrable barrier to the bullets. I'm saying that they have the tech to absorb KE and channel it elsewhere, just like dampening fields do.

I love the way you're so hopelessly ignorant that you don't recognize that momentum and KE are different things.

I love the way you assume I know nothing about momentum conservation, you moron. Where in my post did I give you that impression (moron)?

I see you completely ignored the point of the rebuttal, moron. The fact that you can make something work on a large scale does not mean you can necessarily make it work on a small scale.

But that doesn't mean you can't either, moron (my my, you like this word don't you ).

Eg 1 a tank has a big gun capable of firing projectiles, likewise a soldier also has a gun but on a smaller scale. It too fires projectiles, but these generally have less momentum than their larger scale analogues.
Eg 2 a ship can carry large anti-aircraft missiles. Similarly a foot soldier can carry a smaller version such as the stinger.

Point made, moron.

By your imbecilic logic, the fact that US warships have fire-suppression systems must mean that US infantrymen do too, so they should be immune to napalm.

That's just ridiculous. At this point I'm thinking you are either an idiot, or an engineer...I still can't decide which.

Quote:
Don't believe its possible? Well remember that episode when Worf and Troi were stuck on that wild west holodeck program with the safeties off, and the computer made a holo figure of Data into the evil bad guy? At the end of that, Worf was forced into a shoot out by the holo Data. and guess what? Worf reconfigured his comm badge (I think?) to make a personal defense shield. Data fired his gun (which was an old revolver, you know the type, they are like small cannon with massive recoil) and Worf stood there completely still while the bullets bounced off. There is a perfect example of a KE absorbing shield for you. And since the Borg downloaded all the data on the Enterprise, they would have that tech (if they didn't already).

That thing only worked for a few shots, and then drained its power...blah blah blah...

Then it did work!!!

Moreover, it was attached to a relatively large device, not microscopic internal implants. And that "small cannon" remark is just stupid. Given a fixed power output for their onboard systems, they can't throw in everything but the kitchen sink. It's pretty obvious that you've never designed anything in your life, hence the concept of design trade-offs is clearly foreign to you.

If handled incorecctly, the recoil from a magnum revolver is enough to break a man's wrist. My "small canon" remark stands, I think that it is your remark that is stupid.

As for the rest of your post...please, spare me your technobabble shit, it doesn't make you seem any more intelligent.

[The Silence and I]

I think Robert was suggesting a K.E. shield is within the technological capabilities of the Borg--not that it is actually commonly employed.

I also think his points about the theoretical K.E. shield are valid:
A common arguement against the feasability of such shields is that the momentum imparted by the attack through the shield to the user would displace the implants generating the shield and in the process cause massive, perhaps fatal, internal injuries.
Robert's suggestion was that a form fitting shield potentially could impart the attack's momentum directly to the skin of the user, avoiding fatal internal injuries. He went further, proposing this theoretical shielding system might spread the momentum over the entire area of the user facing the attack. This would result in minor bruising over much of the body, instead of heavy bruising over a relatively small area--common to today's bullet "proof" vests.
This system would still allow an attack to knock the user over and does not suggest invulnerability to K.E. attack--no limits fallacies never entered this proposal, and it is suggested only as a theoretical system, not one in use currently (He offers an inability to distinguish between harmful and harmless physical interaction as a reason this is not employed by drones).

At least, that was my interpretation of his posts. Just hoping to clear some things up, as I like the idea in theory and don't want it dismissed on a misinterpretation only.

[Kurgan]

Star Wars has personal shields. The difference is that the "Borg Shields" are said to be moored to the internal organs and tissues of a Borg drone's flesh (the implants visibly spring out of the person's skin).

Wars personal shields are generated from rigid metallic armor that is worn on the person's body (such as a belt, vest, or full body suit), so the impact is imparted to a person's body. Like a medieval Knight, obviously they can still be killed from the blunt trauma of impacts or otherwise messed up, but this is a far cry from nanoprobes that are projecting a piece of metal through your skin, and then hitting THAT with a KE attack.

Reasons I can speculate why Personal Shields aren't used more often in Wars include: 1) too costly 2) weapons are so powerful they often don't make much difference 3) somehow unreliable 4) laws prohibiting their production/use 5) lazy writers ; )

Anyway...
The first hit is going to kill the Drone as it rips apart the organs that are supporting the shield generators.

Borg KE shields could reasonably work, they just need to be designed differently than the currently used mechanism that has been mentioned and demonstrated time and again in the show.

[Mr Bean]

Reasons I can speculate why Personal Shields aren't used more often in Wars include: 1) too costly 2) weapons are so powerful they often don't make much difference 3) somehow unreliable 4) laws prohibiting their production/use 5) lazy writers ; )

Reason one and three from the EU, A expensive. C. Overheat and exploded making them slightly less than useful

[Pablo Sanchez]

I love the way you assume I know nothing about momentum conservation, you moron. Where in my post did I give you that impression (moron)?

It was when you said that "they have the tech to absorb KE and channel it elsewhere." Which, following the rules of conservation of momentum, is a scientific impossibility. Your analogy using dampening fields is useless because there is no reason to believe that the momentum transfer due to acceleration has been made to disappear via magical processes. Rather, I would consider it more probable that the acceleration that would normally act on the interior of the ship is countered by the same devices which generate the ship's internal gravity, and that the acceleration which would normally be flinging the crew about the ship is instead made to act on the far more resilient superstructure of the ship. Instead of getting rid of the momentum it is transferred to another place within the same system.

Now, just a guess... but one that makes far more sense than yours.

Eg 1 a tank has a big gun capable of firing projectiles, likewise a soldier also has a gun but on a smaller scale. It too fires projectiles, but these generally have less momentum than their larger scale analogues.

The differences between a 120mm smoothbore tank cannon and an M16 are so many and various that I can't even begin to go into them here. Suffice it to say that the only thing they have in common is the process of propelling a piece of metal by chemical expansion in an enclosed barrel.

Eg 2 a ship can carry large anti-aircraft missiles. Similarly a foot soldier can carry a smaller version such as the stinger.

Rocketry is an extremely atypical example, in that it can be made to act on virtually any scale. A better example (more accurate and working in the same principles as our actual discussion) would be chobham armor. It can be made to protect an armored vehicle very effectively yet would not work very efficiently as, say, personal body armor.

That's just ridiculous. At this point I'm thinking you are either an idiot, or an engineer...I still can't decide which.

That does not constitute a rebuttal and in fact reveals astonishing ignorance, in that you seem to believe that engineers are stupid or too literalist.

Then it did work!!!

A sixteenth century arquebus "works" but it will never be a M16. In the same way, Worf's personal shield "works" but would never be remotely effective in actual combat.

If handled incorecctly, the recoil from a magnum revolver is enough to break a man's wrist.

It was not a magnum revolver, the first magnum cartridge was developed in 1912 for hunting purposes, and would have been quite out of place in a "Western" holodeck simulation.

Furthermore, the only way that a heavy pistol's recoil would break a man's wrist is if he were Samuel L. Jackson in Unbreakable; or perhaps "incorrect handling" refers to some method of handling a pistol with which I am utterly unfamiliar. Maybe firing the pistol while simultaneously bashing one's wrist with a hammer?

[Robert Walper]

I think Robert was suggesting a K.E. shield is within the technological capabilities of the Borg--not that it is actually commonly employed.

Thank you. That is exactly what I was saying.

I also think his points about the theoretical K.E. shield are valid:
A common arguement against the feasability of such shields is that the momentum imparted by the attack through the shield to the user would displace the implants generating the shield and in the process cause massive, perhaps fatal, internal injuries.
Robert's suggestion was that a form fitting shield potentially could impart the attack's momentum directly to the skin of the user, avoiding fatal internal injuries.

Edit: I should point out I've mentioned earlier that Borg drones typically possess at least leather like armor Michael Wong has shown on his website. This should add to the degree of protection; the shield wouldn't be interacting directly with the users skin, unless the area of affect is without covering. But as we know, most of the drone's body is covered anyways.

He went further, proposing this theoretical shielding system might spread the momentum over the entire area of the user facing the attack. This would result in minor bruising over much of the body, instead of heavy bruising over a relatively small area--common to today's bullet "proof" vests.
This system would still allow an attack to knock the user over and does not suggest invulnerability to K.E. attack--no limits fallacies never entered this proposal, and it is suggested only as a theoretical system, not one in use currently (He offers an inability to distinguish between harmful and harmless physical interaction as a reason this is not employed by drones).

At least, that was my interpretation of his posts. Just hoping to clear some things up, as I like the idea in theory and don't want it dismissed on a misinterpretation only.

Finally! Someone who actually understands what I was pointing out. Your description/explanation couldn't have been more accurate. Thank you Silence.

[Robert Walper]

*snip*

Brilliant job at pointing out the obvious, Sherlock. Care to quote me where I said the Borg typically employ KE shielding?

[SirNitram]

*snip*

Brilliant job at pointing out the obvious, Sherlock. Care to quote me where I said the Borg typically employ KE shielding?

Typically don't enter into it. We see a large array of situations with both normal and decidedly non-normal Drones. Besides, it was more a crushing blow against Handsome.

[Darth Wong]

I am not suggesting that a Borg shield is merely an impenetrable barrier to the bullets. I'm saying that they have the tech to absorb KE and channel it elsewhere, just like dampening fields do.

I love the way you're so hopelessly ignorant that you don't recognize that momentum and KE are different things.

I love the way you assume I know nothing about momentum conservation, you moron. Where in my post did I give you that impression (moron)?

By acting as though you can solve the collision problem by postulating that they can absorb the KE. We can absorb KE today, you idiot. That's what crumple zones do. For that matter, it's what the flesh in your chest cavity does. But that doesn't allow us to ignore conservation of momentum.

I see you completely ignored the point of the rebuttal, moron. The fact that you can make something work on a large scale does not mean you can necessarily make it work on a small scale.

But that doesn't mean you can't either, moron (my my, you like this word don't you ).

Wow, you're so fucking stupid you can't even make up insults on the fly. By the way, you are obviously too much of an imbecile to recognize that you can't assume people can do something until you have evidence, and saying "you can't prove they CAN'T do it is not evidence.

Eg 1 a tank has a big gun capable of firing projectiles, likewise a soldier also has a gun but on a smaller scale. It too fires projectiles, but these generally have less momentum than their larger scale analogues.
Eg 2 a ship can carry large anti-aircraft missiles. Similarly a foot soldier can carry a smaller version such as the stinger.

Point made, moron.

No, point evaded, you blustering snot-nosed little shit. The fact that a larger phenomenon can be employed in both large and small devices does not mean that every large device can be miniaturized, or that it WILL be miniaturized and deployed on foot soldiers; your logic is as feeble as your creativity. You don't even understand the distinction between a piece of technology and an underlying physics principle.

By your imbecilic logic, the fact that US warships have fire-suppression systems must mean that US infantrymen do too, so they should be immune to napalm.

That's just ridiculous. At this point I'm thinking you are either an idiot, or an engineer...I still can't decide which.

So you admit that the logical conclusion of your own argument is "ridiculous", and you think this reflects poorly on my intelligence?

By the way, what's your profession, that you should look down on engineers? You've already demonstrated that you don't know jack shit about physics (pretending that absorption of KE will let you ignore conservation of momentum), so what exactly is it that you do know?

That thing only worked for a few shots, and then drained its power...blah blah blah...

Then it did work!!!

And it was much larger than a nano-scale Borg implant!

Moreover, it was attached to a relatively large device, not microscopic internal implants. And that "small cannon" remark is just stupid. Given a fixed power output for their onboard systems, they can't throw in everything but the kitchen sink. It's pretty obvious that you've never designed anything in your life, hence the concept of design trade-offs is clearly foreign to you.

If handled incorecctly, the recoil from a magnum revolver is enough to break a man's wrist. My "small canon" remark stands, I think that it is your remark that is stupid.

First, you completely ignored most of my point, thus indicating that I was correct: you don't know jack shit about designing anything. Second, there is no reason to believe that every revolver in the Old West had the same recoil as a magnum revolver, fool.

As for the rest of your post...please, spare me your technobabble shit, it doesn't make you seem any more intelligent.

In other words, it flew over your head and you're too stupid to understand it, so you're sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la la la"...

[Darth Wong]

I think Robert was suggesting a K.E. shield is within the technological capabilities of the Borg--not that it is actually commonly employed.

Thank you. That is exactly what I was saying.

Too bad it doesn't prove a damned thing. It is well within the technological capabilities of modern industry to produce body armour which is much stronger than what we presently use, but that doesn't mean we're necessarily going to deploy it on foot soldiers. There are always trade-offs; something I've tried to explain to both you and Admiral Shithead.

[Sarevok]

That's just ridiculous. At this point I'm thinking you are either an idiot, or an engineer...I still can't decide which.

I love the way you assume I know nothing about momentum conservation, you moron. Where in my post did I give you that impression (moron)?

Your posts indicate otherwise. You dont realize the difference between KE and momentum.

Eg 1 a tank has a big gun capable of firing projectiles, likewise a soldier also has a gun but on a smaller scale. It too fires projectiles, but these generally have less momentum than their larger scale analogues.

Except that tank shells can be explosive. Try doing that at infantry level.

Point made, moron.

How ? You are claiming that shielding technology on a massive 3 KM ship can be used on a 2 M drone.

That's just ridiculous. At this point I'm thinking you are either an idiot, or an engineer...I still can't decide which.

You are the one being ridiculous.

Then it did work!!!

And they used this tech in First Contact... Right !!!

As for the rest of your post...please, spare me your technobabble shit, it doesn't make you seem any more intelligent.

Go to the library and read some actual science.

[LordShaithis]

Too bad it doesn't prove a damned thing. It is well within the technological capabilities of modern industry to produce body armour which is much stronger than what we presently use, but that doesn't mean we're necessarily going to deploy it on foot soldiers. There are always trade-offs;

Isn't that pretty much what Walper said? Technically they could make KE shields, but there must be some downside, because they don't actually do so. He then pointed out one or two hypothetical examples of said downside.

[Ghost Rider]

Too bad it doesn't prove a damned thing. It is well within the technological capabilities of modern industry to produce body armour which is much stronger than what we presently use, but that doesn't mean we're necessarily going to deploy it on foot soldiers. There are always trade-offs;

Isn't that pretty much what Walper said? Technically they could make KE shields, but there must be some downside, because they don't actually do so. He then pointed out one or two hypothetical examples of said downside.

Problem is aside from one Federation fluke...where did the Borg ever demonstrate the tech to employ this?

Giving a hypothtetical by insuring ever possible variable produces Borg having the possiblity of maybe having a Borg shield but no proof to the case is inane.

It is no different then saying The Federation maybe possibly has planetary shields twenty times the power of ship board but have never showed it.

[Darth Wong]

Too bad it doesn't prove a damned thing. It is well within the technological capabilities of modern industry to produce body armour which is much stronger than what we presently use, but that doesn't mean we're necessarily going to deploy it on foot soldiers. There are always trade-offs;

Isn't that pretty much what Walper said? Technically they could make KE shields, but there must be some downside, because they don't actually do so. He then pointed out one or two hypothetical examples of said downside.

Those aren't downsides; he was just pointing out that his proposed system wouldn't provide perfect protection. He did not (and still does not) acknowledge that there can be design trade-offs which would make them not ever deploy the thing, hence "it's possible" is not a proof. He needs to show that they've actually done it.

[Robert Walper]

Too bad it doesn't prove a damned thing. It is well within the technological capabilities of modern industry to produce body armour which is much stronger than what we presently use, but that doesn't mean we're necessarily going to deploy it on foot soldiers. There are always trade-offs;

Isn't that pretty much what Walper said? Technically they could make KE shields, but there must be some downside, because they don't actually do so. He then pointed out one or two hypothetical examples of said downside.

Problem is aside from one Federation fluke...where did the Borg ever demonstrate the tech to employ this?

I presume by "fluke" you're referring to STVOY "Drone", where One deployed and utilized a KE shield several times?

I don't subscribe to the notion that sophisticated and functional technology just appears "accidently" out of no where. The KE shield came from somewhere, and a perfectly acceptable explanation, IMO, is the nanoprobes possessed the specifications to build one, along with the rest of the Borg technology.

Look to the US military as an example. Currently active troops possess some impressive equipment and capabilites, but current projects researching future/new types of soldiers are far more advanced.

As far as I'm concerned, STVOY "Drone" is an example of modern Borg technology actually creating a KE shield. One simply had the technology available and the independence to utilize it.

[Robert Walper]

Too bad it doesn't prove a damned thing. It is well within the technological capabilities of modern industry to produce body armour which is much stronger than what we presently use, but that doesn't mean we're necessarily going to deploy it on foot soldiers. There are always trade-offs;

Isn't that pretty much what Walper said? Technically they could make KE shields, but there must be some downside, because they don't actually do so. He then pointed out one or two hypothetical examples of said downside.

Those aren't downsides; he was just pointing out that his proposed system wouldn't provide perfect protection. He did not (and still does not) acknowledge that there can be design trade-offs which would make them not ever deploy the thing, hence "it's possible" is not a proof. He needs to show that they've actually done it.

I consider STVOY "Drone" the "smoking gun" evidence modern Borg technology can in fact create a KE shield, and I've submitted what I see as a valid theory on how it would work.

The only rebuttal I've seen to One's KE shield is "it was a fluke", "magical 29th century technology" or similar constructed arguement.

As I stated in my last post, I don't subscribe to the arguement that sophisticated and functional technology just "accidently" comes into being. Particularily in face of the far more logical arguement that the nanoprobes built the technology from pre existing design specifications.

[Batman]

Hello? We are talking about the Borg. Chances are during the half millenuim between Trek 'now' and the 29th century they assimilated a species that had individual KE shields. To assume that they somehow had the technology all the time and for whatever reasons never used it is patently absurd...

[Robert Walper]

I think Robert was suggesting a K.E. shield is within the technological capabilities of the Borg--not that it is actually commonly employed.

Thank you. That is exactly what I was saying.

Too bad it doesn't prove a damned thing. It is well within the technological capabilities of modern industry to produce body armour which is much stronger than what we presently use, but that doesn't mean we're necessarily going to deploy it on foot soldiers. There are always trade-offs; something I've tried to explain to both you and Admiral Shithead.

In other words, there is a cost to benefit ratio(I am aware of this concept).

This makes perfect sense from the perspective of efficiency, one of the Borg's self declared goals. Since Borg drones already typically bitchslap enemy troops quite well(hell, a couple of drones can manhandle even Data), there doesn't seem to be a pressing need to employ KE shielding, especially when physical contact with drones is a very bad idea in the first place.

The repeated arguement of the Borg losing a few drones to physical attacks during the First Contact incident completely ignores the fact the battle to hold the E-E from Borg forces was lost, and the Starfleet crew was forced to abandon ship.

[Robert Walper]

Hello? We are talking about the Borg. Chances are during the half millenuim between Trek 'now' and the 29th century they assimilated a species that had individual KE shields. To assume that they somehow had the technology all the time and for whatever reasons never used it is patently absurd...

Wrong. One's technology came from modern Borg nanoprobes assimilating a 29th century mobile holo emitter. There was no future Borg database accessed, nor is there any rational arguement to claim the mobile emitter contributed anything other than access to a new alloy casing, compact computing capability and...well, a holo emitter.

Secondly, no one is assuming the Borg had this technology "all this time". If and when the Borg acquired/created the technology isn't relevent as far as I can see.

[Batman]

Hello? We are talking about the Borg. Chances are during the half millenuim between Trek 'now' and the 29th century they assimilated a species that had individual KE shields. To assume that they somehow had the technology all the time and for whatever reasons never used it is patently absurd...

Wrong. One's technology came from modern Borg nanoprobes assimilating a 29th century mobile holo emitter. There was no future Borg database accessed,

My mistake then. Looks like I misremembered the episode.

nor is there any rational arguement to claim the mobile emitter contributed anything other than access to a new alloy casing, compact computing capability and...well, a holo emitter.

Assuming none of the components in that emitter was vital to miniatureizing KE shields when that emmitter was the only difference between the one Borg drone that had KE shields and all the others.
Yes, that certainly makes sense...

Secondly, no one is assuming the Borg had this technology "all this time".

Either you assume 24th century Borg have miniature KE shields or you don't.
Either you do in which case they have had the ability all this time, or you don't, in which case this discussion is moot.

[Darth Wong]

I consider STVOY "Drone" the "smoking gun" evidence modern Borg technology can in fact create a KE shield, and I've submitted what I see as a valid theory on how it would work.

And the fact that this shield GAVE HIM THE ABILITY TO DOMINATE ALL OTHER DRONES did not register in your mind? Only a liar or a moron would conclude that it means all drones can do that.

The only rebuttal I've seen to One's KE shield is "it was a fluke", "magical 29th century technology" or similar constructed arguement.

See above, moron.

As I stated in my last post, I don't subscribe to the arguement that sophisticated and functional technology just "accidently" comes into being. Particularily in face of the far more logical arguement that the nanoprobes built the technology from pre existing design specifications.

Oh, this is rich. A drone assimilates some technology half a millenium into the future, gains a new capability which no other drone has, uses it to singlehandedly overwhelm a cube's defenders, and with a perfectly straight face, you conclude that this proves the drone had this capability all along

Too bad it doesn't prove a damned thing. It is well within the technological capabilities of modern industry to produce body armour which is much stronger than what we presently use, but that doesn't mean we're necessarily going to deploy it on foot soldiers. There are always trade-offs; something I've tried to explain to both you and Admiral Shithead.

In other words, there is a cost to benefit ratio(I am aware of this concept).

Yet another point that flew right over your head, I see. There are many engineering trade-offs that one can run into that have nothing to do with cost/benefit ratios. But by all means, feel free to continue confidently pontificating in your ignorance.

[Ghost Rider]

Isn't that pretty much what Walper said? Technically they could make KE shields, but there must be some downside, because they don't actually do so. He then pointed out one or two hypothetical examples of said downside.

Problem is aside from one Federation fluke...where did the Borg ever demonstrate the tech to employ this?

I presume by "fluke" you're referring to STVOY "Drone", where One deployed and utilized a KE shield several times?

I don't subscribe to the notion that sophisticated and functional technology just appears "accidently" out of no where. The KE shield came from somewhere, and a perfectly acceptable explanation, IMO, is the nanoprobes possessed the specifications to build one, along with the rest of the Borg technology.

Look to the US military as an example. Currently active troops possess some impressive equipment and capabilites, but current projects researching future/new types of soldiers are far more advanced.

As far as I'm concerned, STVOY "Drone" is an example of modern Borg technology actually creating a KE shield. One simply had the technology available and the independence to utilize it.

I'm glad you use one fluke that had FORIEGN EQUIPMENT THAT NO OTHER BORG EVER HAD in him to conclude...all other drones must somehow have this tech, but what?

Choose not to use it?

Are too stupid to use it?

It's nice to see your ass backwards way of concluding things are still going strong.