Something funny: Dominion fleet size.

[Praxis]

Here's something funny I spotted. It was a bit tough to count the little dots since they could disappear behind each other and reappear later, but I watched the scene in "Call to Arms" where one of the Dominion fleet/convoys comes out of the wormhole in slow motion. I counted 45 ships, give or take about 10. 50 ships would be a good estimate.

Sisko stated there had been five such convoy/fleets (plus 50 in the episode where the Dominion fleet first game through the wormhole).

So, 50 x 6 = 300.

This implies that the entire Dominion fleet in the Alpha quadrant, before the minefield was taken down (though the 2700 reinforcements were wiped out by the wormhole aliens), was made up of about 300 ships, give or take maybe a hundred.

Maybe Dominion ships were far superior to Federation ships (considering that the Dominion didn't lose a single cruiser in the battle for DS9, only fighters), and the majority of the big fleet we see in Sacrifice of Angels was Cardassian?

There's also the fact that the Dominion set up shipyards in the alpha quadrant, so it was higher.

Nevertheless, 300-400 Dominion ships for the first chunk of the Dominion War is an INCREDIBLY low number. So low, I highly doubt it's right. But it's a funny thing I noticed.

I guess the DS9 writers don't know how to cunt

[Terr Fangbite]

That or they don't know how to properly budget their special effects.

[Praxis]

How much of a special effects budget does it take to clone a 3d model of a Jem Hadar warship? Not much. In fact, I could clone all 50 Jem Hadar warships in under 5 minutes in 3d Studio Max, a dozen times if need be.

Embarrassingly enough, I misspelled "count". Can a moderator correct that? LOL

[jubjub27]

it wasn't till the attack to prevent the mine field from being put up that the federation had a defense against dominion weapons. 300 is more than enough when your enemy has no sheilds! "impossible federation shelds have always proven useless against our weapons"-Weyoun The loss of ships in that attack was "costly" according to Weyoun

[jubjub27]

also...........have you looked at a slow motion pic of the last episode when 20k or so ships were surrounding cardassia prime?

[Gandalf]

Interesting theory.

The Dominion building their own ships oculd account for an awful lot. Martok states in WYLB that "The Dominion has shown the ability to build ships at an impressive rate." Also, in ITPM, Vreenak states that Dominion shipyards are running at full capacity.

Also, the Dominion ship count given in late season 7, that puts the Dominion ship count after 2 years of war at 30,000. Given existing losses to the Federation, this implies more good shipbuilding rates.

Also, the array in the Argolis cluster that the Dominion had would have been a big factor in the early victories too.

[Praxis]

also...........have you looked at a slow motion pic of the last episode when 20k or so ships were surrounding cardassia prime?

That was AFTER the minefield fell, so the Dominion would have gotten reinforcements.

I'm talking about the time period between the beginning of the war ("A Call to Arms") and the fall of the minefield ("Sacrifice of Angels"). There was a 3 month gap between "Call to Arms" and "A Time to Stand" (the episode immediately afterward), and there was 4 or 5 episodes in between that and SoA.

[Chris OFarrell]

Here's something funny I spotted. It was a bit tough to count the little dots since they could disappear behind each other and reappear later, but I watched the scene in "Call to Arms" where one of the Dominion fleet/convoys comes out of the wormhole in slow motion. I counted 45 ships, give or take about 10. 50 ships would be a good estimate.

Completly ignoring the fact that the sceen cuts out while the convoy is still emerging in force from the wormhole and we don't SEE an end to the ships comming out. We get a much better idea from the first fleet that entered the AQ at the end of PBS and the start of BIL. That ship count is FAR higher.

Your assumptions are flawed.

[Luzifer's right hand]

also...........have you looked at a slow motion pic of the last episode when 20k or so ships were surrounding cardassia prime?

That was AFTER the minefield fell, so the Dominion would have gotten reinforcements.

Is there evidence that the dominion got reinforcements tru the wormhole?

The first wave of dominion reinforcments was destroyed in ""Sacrifice of Angels" by the Prophets and it's unlikely that the Federation which gained controll over DS9 and the wormhole in the same episode would allow the Dominion to use the wormhole.

[Admiral_K]

...

[Gandalf]

also...........have you looked at a slow motion pic of the last episode when 20k or so ships were surrounding cardassia prime?

That was AFTER the minefield fell, so the Dominion would have gotten reinforcements.

Is there evidence that the dominion got reinforcements tru the wormhole?

The first wave of dominion reinforcments was destroyed in ""Sacrifice of Angels" by the Prophets and it's unlikely that the Federation which gained controll over DS9 and the wormhole in the same episode would allow the Dominion to use the wormhole.

They didn't get their reinforcements though the wormhole, that's why they made Alphas.

I think what Praxis is getting at is that the Dominion sharted the war with somewhat few ships compared to the Federation/Klingons.

[playloud]

also...........have you looked at a slow motion pic of the last episode when 20k or so ships were surrounding cardassia prime?

That was AFTER the minefield fell, so the Dominion would have gotten reinforcements.

I'm talking about the time period between the beginning of the war ("A Call to Arms") and the fall of the minefield ("Sacrifice of Angels"). There was a 3 month gap between "Call to Arms" and "A Time to Stand" (the episode immediately afterward), and there was 4 or 5 episodes in between that and SoA.

The Dominion never got any reinforcements through the wormhole. After the 2700 ships "vanished" during Sacrifice of Angels, there was a big thing about Gul Dukat trying to find a way to kill the Profits in order to "re-open" the wormhole so reinforcements could be sent. He never found a way to do this. All those ships you saw in the final episode, were built in the Alpha Quadrant.

[Gandalf]

That was AFTER the minefield fell, so the Dominion would have gotten reinforcements.

I'm talking about the time period between the beginning of the war ("A Call to Arms") and the fall of the minefield ("Sacrifice of Angels"). There was a 3 month gap between "Call to Arms" and "A Time to Stand" (the episode immediately afterward), and there was 4 or 5 episodes in between that and SoA.

The Dominion never got any reinforcements through the wormhole. After the 2700 ships "vanished" during Sacrifice of Angels, there was a big thing about Gul Dukat trying to find a way to kill the Profits in order to "re-open" the wormhole so reinforcements could be sent. He never found a way to do this. All those ships you saw in the final episode, were built in the Alpha Quadrant.

You're missing the point. Praxis said the Dominion would have gotten the reinforcements, not that they actually did get them. The idea being that the ships they did have already, plus the 2700 were supposed to be enough to march over the AQ.

[playloud]

I don't know if it was meant to march all over the Alpha Quadrant. It would have been enough to secure DS9 (and therfore the wormhole) for the rest of the war, which would have allowed even more reinforcements to come through, and buy time for even more ship building. It would have secured victory for the Dominion.

[Vympel]

I still would like to know what exactly happened to those 2,700 Dominion vessels.

God that episode fucking sucked.

[Praxis]

We get a much better idea from the first fleet that entered the AQ at the end of PBS and the start of BIL. That ship count is FAR higher.

If I recall...the first fleet that entered the AQ that Dukat ran off of was 50 ships, as well. I could be mistaken.

Completly ignoring the fact that the sceen cuts out while the convoy is still emerging in force from the wormhole and we don't SEE an end to the ships comming out.

Well, I just rewatched that part (gotta love DVR), and you're right. The wormhole is still open when the camera shifts away. There could have been more ships.

[Ubiquitous]

On a related note ... did the Federation ever re-mine the wormhole after SoA, or was it just left to the DS9 fleet to ensure no reinforcements ever made it to the AQ?

[Gandalf]

On a related note ... did the Federation ever re-mine the wormhole after SoA, or was it just left to the DS9 fleet to ensure no reinforcements ever made it to the AQ?

I think it was implied the Prophets were protecting the wormhole.

[Ma Deuce]

If I recall...the first fleet that entered the AQ that Dukat ran off of was 50 ships, as well. I could be mistaken.

Actually, Weyoun said that they lost 50 ships during that first battle, and he considered that to be "costly". Costly can be a subjective term: Perhaps the Dominion was used to fighting foes that were vastly outnumbered and outclassed, rather than ones that could put up a real fight against them like the Federation.

[seanrobertson]

If I recall...the first fleet that entered the AQ that Dukat ran off of was 50 ships, as well. I could be mistaken.

Actually, Weyoun said that they lost 50 ships during that first battle, and he considered that to be "costly". Costly can be a subjective term: Perhaps the Dominion was used to fighting foes that were vastly outnumbered and outclassed, rather than ones that could put up a real fight against them like the Federation.

Good thoughts.

I should add, however, that Weyoun said it was a "costly" victory, and not simply for the loss of 50 ships. The full quote was:

Over fifty ships lost; our shipyards on Torros Three, destroyed...[It's] a victory, perhaps, but a costly one.

That further muddies the waters of just how profound a loss 50 ships is to the Dominion-Cardassian Alliance. But given the size of their fleet when combined with the Breen, a theretofore intergalactic small-timer, I'd guess the loss of those shipyards was by far the harder of the two blows. 50 ships ain't all much in light of 30,000 total, after all (circa "Tacking Into the Wind," in the final months of the war).

[Praxis]

If I recall...the first fleet that entered the AQ that Dukat ran off of was 50 ships, as well. I could be mistaken.

Actually, Weyoun said that they lost 50 ships during that first battle, and he considered that to be "costly". Costly can be a subjective term: Perhaps the Dominion was used to fighting foes that were vastly outnumbered and outclassed, rather than ones that could put up a real fight against them like the Federation.

Different occasion. The first fleet that came through the wormhole was 50 ships, and zipped straight off to Cardassian space. Then the Dominion sent 5 more convoys of ships to Cardassian space, before the Feddies decided to mine the wormhole. When they did that, the Dominion attacked, and lost 50 ships. However, there was some time in between.

[FTeik]

I doubt, that there were more than 10,000 Dominion-ships in "What you leave behind".

Dukat and Weyon seemed to be sure, that with 2,800 ships reinforcements the war would be over. Sure, most of those ships might have been larger cruisers, but even if you take three Jem´Hadar-beetles to make up for every cruiser you only get 8,400 ships.

Keep also in mind, that for some time the Klingons were the only ones fighting the war with 1,500 ships and most of those would have been small Bird-of-Preys.

[Praxis]

I doubt, that there were more than 10,000 Dominion-ships in "What you leave behind".

Dukat and Weyon seemed to be sure, that with 2,800 ships reinforcements the war would be over. Sure, most of those ships might have been larger cruisers, but even if you take three Jem´Hadar-beetles to make up for every cruiser you only get 8,400 ships.

Keep also in mind, that for some time the Klingons were the only ones fighting the war with 1,500 ships and most of those would have been small Bird-of-Preys.

10,000 by the END of the war. I was talking about the beginning.

[Chris OFarrell]

If I recall...the first fleet that entered the AQ that Dukat ran off of was 50 ships, as well. I could be mistaken.

Kira said there are at *LEAST* 50 ships comming. She went into the GQ under cloak, got wind of the Dominion fleet on long range sensors and scotted back to warn the station.

Simple maths shows it was far more then fifty. You have three different sceens. Firstly the same workhole opens and ships poor out on the viewscrren, that you had in 'A Call To Arms'. Then the camera shifts to a POV directly in front of the wormhole, then the episode ends with them still pooring out. Then you have the start of the next episode and the incomming ships finaly trickle off. Its WAY more then fifty ships.

Unfortunantly I don't have that season on DVD so I'm trying to find that clip on the internet to get an estimate. Given the sceen changes we have, we can only get an estimate. I mean we have that same initial sceen with 30 ships comming out, then we cut back to Sisko in Shaft Mode calling battlestations and people running around, while ships continue to poor out, then to a POV in front of the wormhole for a few seconds until the episode ends.

[Chris OFarrell]

I doubt, that there were more than 10,000 Dominion-ships in "What you leave behind".

Dukat and Weyon seemed to be sure, that with 2,800 ships reinforcements the war would be over. Sure, most of those ships might have been larger cruisers, but even if you take three Jem´Hadar-beetles to make up for every cruiser you only get 8,400 ships.

Keep also in mind, that for some time the Klingons were the only ones fighting the war with 1,500 ships and most of those would have been small Bird-of-Preys.

Its an explicite statement that they have 25,000 ships at the end of the war. In two different episodes, both times contrasting the Klingons 1500 ships and being outnumbered 20 to 1 by themselves.