Borg vs Firearms

[Robert Walper]

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*sigh* I have not concluded all Borg drones have KE shielding. In fact, I haven't asserted any drone other than One possesses KE shielding. Could one of you provide the quote where I've said all Borg drones have KE shielding? Could either of you provide the quote where I stated modern Borg drones can and would employ KE shielding?

I've merely concluded modern Borg technology can in fact produce a workable KE shield. Modern Borg drones obviously haven't employed it to date.

[Ghost Rider]

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*sigh* I have not concluded all Borg drones have KE shielding. In fact, I haven't asserted any drone other than One possesses KE shielding. Could one of you provide the quote where I've said all Borg drones have KE shielding? Could either of you provide the quote where I stated modern Borg drones can and would employ KE shielding?

I've merely concluded modern Borg technology can in fact produce a workable KE shield. Modern Borg drones obviously haven't employed it to date.

And that's the point dipshit.

If they have the technology to employ this, why haven't they?

Against anytime the Federation officer assualted them with knives, guns and hell 8472.

Batman brought it up as in you're saying the Borg have never encountered a culture...EVER, that employs a KE weapon instead of some piss poor frequncy altering device and thus destroying the Borg's oh so vaunted shielding?

Because literally they are far more uses for a KE shielding then there is afor some piss poor energy shielding which requires the other party to play by your rules.

To reiterate his last words Walper

Either you assume 24th century Borg have miniature KE shields or you don't.
Either you do in which case they have had the ability all this time, or you don't, in which case this discussion is moot.

So answer the fucking question.

[Robert Walper]

Either you assume 24th century Borg have miniature KE shields or you don't.
Either you do in which case they have had the ability all this time, or you don't, in which case this discussion is moot.

No, my arguement is that modern Borg technology can in fact produce a workable KE shield. I'm not saying modern Borg drones are equipped with or utilize it.

PS: But by all means people, continue your strawman attacks about how modern Borg drones don't employ KE shielding. That's not my arguement. In case you haven't gotten it yet, I'll spell out my arguement more clearly: We have every reason to believe modern Borg technology can in fact produce a workable KE shield.

[Patrick Degan]

Either you assume 24th century Borg have miniature KE shields or you don't.
Either you do in which case they have had the ability all this time, or you don't, in which case this discussion is moot.

No, my arguement is that modern Borg technology can in fact produce a workable KE shield. I'm not saying modern Borg drones are equipped with or utilize it.

PS: But by all means people, continue your strawman attacks about how modern Borg drones don't employ KE shielding. That's not my arguement. In case you haven't gotten it yet, I'll spell out my arguement more clearly: We have every reason to believe modern Borg technology can in fact produce a workable KE shield.

Then why haven't they?

[TheDarkling]

We have every reason to believe modern Borg technology can in fact produce a workable KE shield.

The question being put forth is, if the Borg have this technology why don't they use it?

Of course one could also wonder why the Borg don't equip all their drones with stun weapons (which they can obviously do) and why they let people wander their ships gathering Intel.

I think it is rather clear that the Borg just don't think all that brightly, of course the Federation has personal shields (of one kind or another) and they don't use them either so the Borg are hardly alone in that.

[Robert Walper]

No, my arguement is that modern Borg technology can in fact produce a workable KE shield. I'm not saying modern Borg drones are equipped with or utilize it.

PS: But by all means people, continue your strawman attacks about how modern Borg drones don't employ KE shielding. That's not my arguement. In case you haven't gotten it yet, I'll spell out my arguement more clearly: We have every reason to believe modern Borg technology can in fact produce a workable KE shield.

Then why haven't they?

We can only guess. As I suggested earlier, perhaps the system cannot recognize the difference between harmful and normal physical interaction. The cost to benefit ratio may be too high. As Mike already mentioned, just because the technological capability is there doesn't mean it is necessarily employed. The Borg, by all appearances, are the dominate conventional power throughout the Star Trek galaxy. The cost of retrofitting the entire Collective would be enormous, and what is the gain? A few drones not lost to KE weaponry, which by all intents and purposes is rarely used by enemy forces?

I fail to see why the Borg should be faulted for adapting to the universe they exist in. In this case, enemy forces overwhelmingly use energy weapons, Borg drones typically outmatch enemy crewmembers easily enough, and even drones "lost" to KE attacks can be reclaimed, either reabsorbed via "The Best of Both Worlds", "I, Borg", or if necessary, they can be revived with Borg technology up to 73 hours after death.

The Borg may also have just determined that armoring a drone is easier and cheaper to do, hence the Tactical drone observed in STVOY "Dark Frontier" with a titanium armor composite.

My question is, do the Borg really so desperately need KE shielding? Even Species 8472 encounters wouldn't have really suggested the need for KE shielding, since it's useful application in that scenario is dubious at best, and probably worthless altogether(an injured member of Species 8472 can tear through ship anchored and powered forcefields, along with hull material).

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I remember an episode where Worf built a personal KE shield out of his comm badge and some parts. It stopped several bullets (or hologram bullets) that would otherwise have killed hime like the hologram bullets killed the Borg in FC.

So, is Worf some kind of supergenius, or is this something they teach Starfleet security personnel how to make? Because if it's the latter, the Borg really, really should have them by now.

So should the feds, for that matter. Might have really changed their war with the Klingons...

[Batman]

Robert, no offence intended, but if all you're arguing is that modern Borg tech can produce a workable KE shield what's your fucking point? Of course it can.
So can the Federation. They're called navigational deflectors.
The question debated in this thread (at least as I understand it) is wether or not modern-day drones have KE shields, the answer to which appears to be 'Err-no'.
If you're NOT arguing they do, what exactly ARE you arguing?

EDITed to fix typo

[Robert Walper]

Robert, no offence intended, but if all you're arguing is that modern Borg tech can produce a workable KE shield what's your fucking point? Of course it can.

That's not the common consensus I hear.

So can the Federation. They're called navigational deflectors.

We're talking KE shields for personnel, not starships.

The question debated in this thread (at least as I understand it) is wether or not modern-day drones have KE shields, the answer to which appears to be 'Err-no'.

Maybe that's what others here have been arguing about. At no point have I suggested modern Borg drones can or do employ KE shielding. I've merely been pointing out that modern Borg technology shouldn't have a problem constructing a practical and workable KE shield. I then went on to mention possible reasons why Borg drones don't employ it. The easiest reason being they don't really need it.

If you're NOT arguing they do, what exactly ARE you arguing?
EDITed to fix typo

I pointed out in my original post that I don't believe the Borg are as vulnerable to KE attacks as commonly assumed. Borg drones are suited to specific tasks, and I have yet to verifiably see or hear of any example of a tactical Borg drone in combat (noting they have titanium armor composite).

The drones in FC didn't come across as tactical drones, particularily in light of analysis of their armor composite. It wouldn't have made sense to beam any over anyhow, since the Borg's objective was to assimilate the E-E (hence, beam over drones best suited to performing that task), not wrestle around with crewmembers, including an andriod or members armed with swords. Keeping in mind the Borg force sent the E-E crew packing anyhow.

I then merely addressed a common claim that KE shielding would be impractical due to internal implants causing massive internal injures, and submitted a theoritical way the system would work within the confines of Borg technology and properties. Given the evidence, I have reason to believe modern Borg technology can in fact create and utilize personnel sized KE shielding (One being a smoking gun example). However, typical drones don't employ it, and don't seem to have it at all.

[althornin]

Robert, no offence intended, but if all you're arguing is that modern Borg tech can produce a workable KE shield what's your fucking point? Of course it can.

That's not the common consensus I hear.

there is a difference between "capable to produce" and KNOWING HOW.
If you put me in charge of a forge, I'd have the indisputable technology to create a sword, right?
Well, why haven't I? Because i havent the first fucking clue about how to make a sword, or what one is, or why i'd want one, etc...

Borg technology is capable of creating "a" KE shield - no matter how weak shitty, deadly to the drone you want to say it is, whatever. It CAN make one. but apparently, they don't know how, so while Borg tech CAN, the BORG CANNOT - otherwise, they would.

[Batman]

So can the Federation. They're called navigational deflectors.

We're talking KE shields for personnel, not starships.

For which you have a grand total of no incidents except One, and that
involved 29th century technology.

I've merely been pointing out that modern Borg technology shouldn't have a problem constructing a practical and workable KE shield.

Based on what? There are no examples whatsoever of Borg using personell KE shields, with the exception of One who had access to 29th century technology. You may interpret this to mean that the Borg have a theory about minaturizing KE shields given the right resources (as the information on how to do so certainly didn't come with that bloody holo emitter), but that does not give them the ability to actually build them.

I pointed out in my original post that I don't believe the Borg are as vulnerable to KE attacks as commonly assumed.

That 'common belief' is I'm afraid very well founded what with Borg drones regularly succumbing to KE attacks...

Borg drones are suited to specific tasks, and I have yet to verifiably see or hear of any example of a tactical Borg drone in combat (noting they have titanium armor composite).

IOW you are blittely assuming they HAVE KE shields with no evidence whatsoever, because you think the Borg are capable of building them for which you ALSO have no evidence. And no, One doesn't count.

Given the evidence, I have reason to believe modern Borg technology can in fact create and utilize personnel sized KE shielding (One being a smoking gun example).

One being an example of the Borg being able to do so with access to 29th century technology, not with their regular resources. Evidence for the Borg being able to built them without that technology is nonexistent.

[Crazedwraith]

Given the evidence, I have reason to believe modern Borg technology can in fact create and utilize personnel sized KE shielding (One being a smoking gun example).

One being an example of the Borg being able to do so with access to 29th century technology, not with their regular resources. Evidence for the Borg being able to built them without that technology is nonexistent.

The previously Stated Worf example. Federation with lower tech mange to whip one up from a combadge. They've assimilated Feddie personel so they should have the ability to do it.

[Batman]

The previously Stated Worf example. Federation with lower tech mange to whip one up from a combadge. They've assimilated Feddie personel so they should have the ability to do it.

So every Feddie automatically knows every invention that any other Feddie makes? If the how-to of that gadget made it into fed databanks the Borg likely do have that knowledge, and since Worf, who isn't exactly MacGyver, could whip it up more or less on the fly it can't be all that difficult, but assuming the Borg have it just because they occasionally assimilate Feds is going too far.
IIRC, there were some drawbacks to the combadge shield,too, Didn't the thing burn out after a couple of hits? It's been several eternities since I saw that episode so I may very well be imagining this...

[Bob the Gunslinger]

A Borg only needs the shield for a couple of hits, really...

[Batman]

A Borg only needs the shield for a couple of hits, really...

Assuming you're referring to my statement, while that is true for a single engagement constantly having to replace the shield generator is something of a nuisance.
Furthermore, the instant an enemy has belt-fed weapons the ability to withstand 'a couple of hits' becomes middlin useless...
And that's assuming that shield can actually stop machine gun bullets.
All we've seen Worf's commbadge shield stop were (at best) 19th century pistol rounds...

[DaveJB]

I haven't seen the episode for yonks, but wasn't Worf stopping holographic bullets? If so, would these bullets be comparable to real bullets?

[Patrick Degan]

A Borg only needs the shield for a couple of hits, really...

Right. Because after many more than a couple of hits from something like this:



—the drone would have no further need for a shield of any type.

[Kurgan]

The Borg appear to be idiots, that's my analysis.

And they remain a threat because their opponents are often idiots too.


I mean, is anyone going to seriously argue that the humans in Star Trek CANNOT create a military as powerful as 21st century earth?

Of course, they never have. But we can chalk that up to political & philosophical reasons (in universe of course, since the reason they aren't as 'militaristic' is due to Roddenberry and other's beliefs and budgetary concerns). That doesn't mean that for example the Federation would be incapable of building a Shinook helicopter or an M-161A.

The Borg supposedly possess the knowledge of the species they've assimilated. They've assimilated lots and lots of cultures, including humans. They should possess basic knowledge of our past weapons.

They chose not to use them, meaning they are simply idiots.

So the only way they'll wise up is if we get better writers. I agree for a VS. debate we shouldn't assume that they will act out of character and completely revamp their military, etc etc. at that point it's really beyond the scope of the debate.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Borg appear to be idiots, that's my analysis.

And they remain a threat because their opponents are often idiots too.


I mean, is anyone going to seriously argue that the humans in Star Trek CANNOT create a military as powerful as 21st century earth?

Given time they could, but that would not be a short period, given the utter lack of trained personal for a cadre if nothing more. And given the inability of replicators to make even a warp core hatch, it's likely that all there equipment would need to be purpose manufactured, and even if you have surplus manufacturing capability you still need to retool and reprogram. Basically, if some major power began rolling through planets, and it would take a lot given that the Dominion war seems to change little but a the rifle, they wouldn't have the time react. And without that, the future capability to field an army isn't very relevant.

[Sarevok]

I haven't seen the episode for yonks, but wasn't Worf stopping holographic bullets? If so, would these bullets be comparable to real bullets?

Well according to Picard in First Contact even holographic bullets can kill and they did kill two Borg drones so they are indeed lethal.

[Superman]

Of course, they never have. But we can chalk that up to political & philosophical reasons (in universe of course, since the reason they aren't as 'militaristic' is due to Roddenberry and other's beliefs and budgetary concerns). That doesn't mean that for example the Federation would be incapable of building a Shinook helicopter or an M-161A.

The Borg supposedly possess the knowledge of the species they've assimilated. They've assimilated lots and lots of cultures, including humans. They should possess basic knowledge of our past weapons.

See, that's my problem with them too. They can assimilate advanced civilizations but ever primitive caveman with a club could fend them off. The Borg have become idiots. You're right.

[Prozac the Robert]

There are a lot of weapons that can kill someone regardless of body armour. We still give our troops armour.

No reason for the borg not to do the same.

Besides, the federation do have some sort of personal forcefield. It's either very new in DS9, or just not equiped to most people as a matter of policy, but they do exist.

[The Nomad]

Regarding One: the holo-emitter has a field that can interact with matter ( we see the Doctor holding things while using it ), all this in a miniature package, no ? Couldn't this explain One's ability to use kinetic shielding with little effort ?

( not read the end of the thread, if it's already been adressed please bear with me ).

[The Nomad]

I haven't seen the episode for yonks, but wasn't Worf stopping holographic bullets? If so, would these bullets be comparable to real bullets?

Well according to Picard in First Contact even holographic bullets can kill and they did kill two Borg drones so they are indeed lethal.

This would beg the obvious question : was Worf's improvised shield a real kinetic shield or an holographic field jammer ?

Although Admiral Leyton mentionned personal shields in DS9S4 "Paradise Lost", we never get to see one. Unless that by this he meant the same kind of shields that were use in STV ?

[Kurgan]

The Borg appear to be idiots, that's my analysis.

And they remain a threat because their opponents are often idiots too.


I mean, is anyone going to seriously argue that the humans in Star Trek CANNOT create a military as powerful as 21st century earth?

Given time they could, but that would not be a short period, given the utter lack of trained personal for a cadre if nothing more. And given the inability of replicators to make even a warp core hatch, it's likely that all there equipment would need to be purpose manufactured, and even if you have surplus manufacturing capability you still need to retool and reprogram. Basically, if some major power began rolling through planets, and it would take a lot given that the Dominion war seems to change little but a the rifle, they wouldn't have the time react. And without that, the future capability to field an army isn't very relevant.

If their holodecks can produce a working (operates and kills like the real thing) Tommy Gun, and other working 20th century earth firearms, how far a stretch is it to say they can't start producing them for real?

Sure, they haven't trained their troops in using them (though Picard seems like a quick study, and so do people like Kirk and Sulu), but who's to say that they can't do that either? Obviously it would cost a lot to revamp their military, train them, house them, etc etc. But to say they simply can't is baloney.

The first step in introducing this would be to make some major policy changes in Star Fleet. Eliminate wasteful spending in certain areas (recreation, families on Starships, treaties that favor their enemies, unnecessary exploration, etc.) and transfer those resources into building a competent ground/air military.

We've seen thread after thread about how "what I would do if I were in charge of the Federation" with stuff like this. Granted, it might require a Sim City Dictator like level of control to get it done, but it could be done. They have more resources than modern day earth, after all and supposedly more advanced science.

We're not talking here about Leonardo Da Vinci building an F-16 after all. More like a modern person building something from Da Vinci's time.