Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
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Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
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Refugee who became Dutch MP defies Islam with film about Koran
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels
(Filed: 31/08/2004)
After describing the Prophet Mohammed as a pervert, Ayaan Hirsi Ali already needs round-the-clock protection from the Dutch security services.
Now the Muslim apostate and rising star of Dutch politics has pushed her luck even further with a film exhibiting verses of the Koran across the chest, stomach and thighs of an almost naked girl.
Mrs Hirsi Ali, who has risen from Somali asylum seeker to Dutch MP in 12 years, produced the film broadcast on Dutch television on Sunday night to highlight the continued oppression of Muslim women in Europe.
The 11-minute programme, Submission, depicts a young Muslim girl confronting Allah at prayer in a mosque. She wears the veil, covering most of the face, but her voluptuous body is clearly visible through a transparent gown.
"All praise to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds," begins the text painted across the actress's throat, which then scrolls down her bare chest. It is taken from the fatiha or opening of the Koran, the lines recited aloud by men, and silently by women, at Muslim prayer five times a day throughout the world.
Four other women act out scenes of torment and repression. One battered victim in a torn dress, exposes her shoulders and arms covered with lash wounds and the text of Verse 34, Chapter 4, The Women.
"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made them excel and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient. Those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them," it says.
The broadcast was watched by 750,000 people, a large audience in a country of 16 million. An estimated one million are Muslims of Turkish or North African origin.
Mrs Hirsi Ali, 34, an MP for the free-market Liberals, has emerged as the unlikely heir of Pim Fortuyn, the homosexual firebrand who launched a mass movement to defend Holland's easy-going way of life against radical imams.
While shunning his party, she has pursued his message, denouncing the country's 30-year experiment with multiculturalism - including 700 Islamic clubs funded by the taxpayer - as a disastrous error born of "misplaced guilt".
Low-level fatwas - or death edicts - have been raining down since she attacked Islam as a medieval, misogynist cult incapable of self-criticism and blind to modern science.
Mrs Hirsi Ali said she chose the naked body formula to open up the opaque world of Islam and show that there is a human being behind the veil.
Steven Huismans, the director of Holland's Institute for Multicultural Development, said: "What she is doing is really provocative." Nabil Marouch, the head of the Dutch wing of the Arabic European League, said: "If the public keeps listening to Ayaan Hirsi, it will do great damage to integration."
But Mrs Hirsi Ali has become immensely popular among the ordinary Dutch, people who have been shocked by the sudden emergence of large Muslim enclaves in their cities - often with ties to militant anti-western groups. A parliamentary report this year found that more than 70 per cent of Dutch-born Muslims were bringing in spouses from their home countries, perpetuating a separatist sub-culture.
Mrs Hirsi Ali arrived in Holland as a penniless refugee in 1992 after sneaking across the German border to escape a forced marriage to a Somali kinsman. She did not speak a word of Dutch. Finding jobs as a cleaner, she went on to study political science at Leiden University.
Her ambition now is nothing less than a reformation of Islam.
*********************************
I love this; low level fatwas?
Funny you never saw Catholic Priests issuing rulings to have
Kevin Smith killed for "Dogma"
Refugee who became Dutch MP defies Islam with film about Koran
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels
(Filed: 31/08/2004)
After describing the Prophet Mohammed as a pervert, Ayaan Hirsi Ali already needs round-the-clock protection from the Dutch security services.
Now the Muslim apostate and rising star of Dutch politics has pushed her luck even further with a film exhibiting verses of the Koran across the chest, stomach and thighs of an almost naked girl.
Mrs Hirsi Ali, who has risen from Somali asylum seeker to Dutch MP in 12 years, produced the film broadcast on Dutch television on Sunday night to highlight the continued oppression of Muslim women in Europe.
The 11-minute programme, Submission, depicts a young Muslim girl confronting Allah at prayer in a mosque. She wears the veil, covering most of the face, but her voluptuous body is clearly visible through a transparent gown.
"All praise to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds," begins the text painted across the actress's throat, which then scrolls down her bare chest. It is taken from the fatiha or opening of the Koran, the lines recited aloud by men, and silently by women, at Muslim prayer five times a day throughout the world.
Four other women act out scenes of torment and repression. One battered victim in a torn dress, exposes her shoulders and arms covered with lash wounds and the text of Verse 34, Chapter 4, The Women.
"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made them excel and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient. Those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them," it says.
The broadcast was watched by 750,000 people, a large audience in a country of 16 million. An estimated one million are Muslims of Turkish or North African origin.
Mrs Hirsi Ali, 34, an MP for the free-market Liberals, has emerged as the unlikely heir of Pim Fortuyn, the homosexual firebrand who launched a mass movement to defend Holland's easy-going way of life against radical imams.
While shunning his party, she has pursued his message, denouncing the country's 30-year experiment with multiculturalism - including 700 Islamic clubs funded by the taxpayer - as a disastrous error born of "misplaced guilt".
Low-level fatwas - or death edicts - have been raining down since she attacked Islam as a medieval, misogynist cult incapable of self-criticism and blind to modern science.
Mrs Hirsi Ali said she chose the naked body formula to open up the opaque world of Islam and show that there is a human being behind the veil.
Steven Huismans, the director of Holland's Institute for Multicultural Development, said: "What she is doing is really provocative." Nabil Marouch, the head of the Dutch wing of the Arabic European League, said: "If the public keeps listening to Ayaan Hirsi, it will do great damage to integration."
But Mrs Hirsi Ali has become immensely popular among the ordinary Dutch, people who have been shocked by the sudden emergence of large Muslim enclaves in their cities - often with ties to militant anti-western groups. A parliamentary report this year found that more than 70 per cent of Dutch-born Muslims were bringing in spouses from their home countries, perpetuating a separatist sub-culture.
Mrs Hirsi Ali arrived in Holland as a penniless refugee in 1992 after sneaking across the German border to escape a forced marriage to a Somali kinsman. She did not speak a word of Dutch. Finding jobs as a cleaner, she went on to study political science at Leiden University.
Her ambition now is nothing less than a reformation of Islam.
*********************************
I love this; low level fatwas?
Funny you never saw Catholic Priests issuing rulings to have
Kevin Smith killed for "Dogma"
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This is good. What a way to kick Islamic ass--simply display its beliefs for everyone else!
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
No, they just massacred the Albigensians down to the last man, woman, and child and called for the Holy Crusades against the Infidels, among many other atrocities committed during their military expansionist era. No doubt you will object that it was a long time ago, but that is irrelevant when asking if something is an intrinsic feature of a religion.MKSheppard wrote:Funny you never saw Catholic Priests issuing rulings to have Kevin Smith killed for "Dogma"
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
Alright, when to intrinsic features cease to become so? And don't say they last forever, I think 500 years is quite good enough personally. At what point do those instances become relegated to the past and are no longer considered a facet of the current form?Darth Wong wrote:No, they just massacred the Albigensians down to the last man, woman, and child and called for the Holy Crusades against the Infidels, among many other atrocities committed during their military expansionist era. No doubt you will object that it was a long time ago, but that is irrelevant when asking if something is an intrinsic feature of a religion.MKSheppard wrote:Funny you never saw Catholic Priests issuing rulings to have Kevin Smith killed for "Dogma"
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
When the documents that give rise to these features are revised.StormTrooperTR889 wrote:Alright, when to intrinsic features cease to become so?Darth Wong wrote:No, they just massacred the Albigensians down to the last man, woman, and child and called for the Holy Crusades against the Infidels, among many other atrocities committed during their military expansionist era. No doubt you will object that it was a long time ago, but that is irrelevant when asking if something is an intrinsic feature of a religion.MKSheppard wrote:Funny you never saw Catholic Priests issuing rulings to have Kevin Smith killed for "Dogma"
Really? What revisions have been made to the Bible in the last 500 years? As long as that document does not change, it is always possible that the behaviour once inspired by it will return.And don't say they last forever, I think 500 years is quite good enough personally.
See above.At what point do those instances become relegated to the past and are no longer considered a facet of the current form?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
When the church stops claiming that it was justified in massacring and torturing people, then we can talk.StormTrooperTR889 wrote:Alright, when to intrinsic features cease to become so? And don't say they last forever, I think 500 years is quite good enough personally. At what point do those instances become relegated to the past and are no longer considered a facet of the current form?
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
There's a reason we called it the "Dark Ages". Christian FundamentalistsDarth Wong wrote:No doubt you will object that it was a long time ago, but that is irrelevant when asking if something is an intrinsic feature of a religion.
have advanced to the 1950s. Meanwhile these Islamofascists have advanced
to about 900 AD.
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
You're assuming that social change can only move in one direction.MKSheppard wrote:There's a reason we called it the "Dark Ages". Christian Fundamentalists have advanced to the 1950s. Meanwhile these Islamofascists have advanced to about 900 AD.Darth Wong wrote:No doubt you will object that it was a long time ago, but that is irrelevant when asking if something is an intrinsic feature of a religion.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
Rios Montt was a bible-thumping Generalissimo in Guatemala who helped murder over 180,000 people in the late 1970s to early 1980s -@1000 years after the so-called Dark Ages. Bin Laden is small time compared to that. Islam is way behind Christianity when it comes to death tolls. The Nazi Holocaust alone killed more people than all the towel-wrappers combined.MKSheppard wrote:There's a reason we called it the "Dark Ages". Christian FundamentalistsDarth Wong wrote:No doubt you will object that it was a long time ago, but that is irrelevant when asking if something is an intrinsic feature of a religion.
have advanced to the 1950s. Meanwhile these Islamofascists have advanced
to about 900 AD.
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
You're not calling the Nazis a religious organisation, are you?Elfdart wrote:Rios Montt was a bible-thumping Generalissimo in Guatemala who helped murder over 180,000 people in the late 1970s to early 1980s -@1000 years after the so-called Dark Ages. Bin Laden is small time compared to that. Islam is way behind Christianity when it comes to death tolls. The Nazi Holocaust alone killed more people than all the towel-wrappers combined.
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
The Nazi Holocaust was not motivated by religion. It was motivated by extreme nationalism. Further, if we really want to get into who killed the most people in recent memory, that lands at the feet of Josef Vissarionovich Stalin, who had people killed for homosexuality, opposing the Party, and holding religious beliefs including both Christianity and Islam, among other things. Next.Elfdart wrote:Islam is way behind Christianity when it comes to death tolls. The Nazi Holocaust alone killed more people than all the towel-wrappers combined.
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
Are you kidding? You think that the extreme anti-Jewish beliefs and actions in Nazi German wasn't grounded in religious belief? What are you smoking? Read Mein Kampf and tell me that again.Rogue 9 wrote:The Nazi Holocaust was not motivated by religion. It was motivated by extreme nationalism. Further, if we really want to get into who killed the most people in recent memory, that lands at the feet of Josef Vissarionovich Stalin, who had people killed for homosexuality, opposing the Party, and holding religious beliefs including both Christianity and Islam, among other things. Next.
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
You think that the motive behind it all wasn't to unite Germany behind Hitler against a common foe, namely the Jews? Read Mein Kampf and tell me that again. Besides, what about the other half of the Holocaust victims, who were not Jews? What about the Poles, was there some religious imperative to kill them? The Gypsies?Gil Hamilton wrote:Are you kidding? You think that the extreme anti-Jewish beliefs and actions in Nazi German wasn't grounded in religious belief? What are you smoking? Read Mein Kampf and tell me that again.Rogue 9 wrote:The Nazi Holocaust was not motivated by religion. It was motivated by extreme nationalism. Further, if we really want to get into who killed the most people in recent memory, that lands at the feet of Josef Vissarionovich Stalin, who had people killed for homosexuality, opposing the Party, and holding religious beliefs including both Christianity and Islam, among other things. Next.
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
Hitler wrote "In my struggle against world Jewry, I am doing The Lord's work.". He also exempted himself and Jesus Christ from the Nuremberg "racial hygiene" laws. Gregory Paul has a lot more in a series of articles he did for Free Inquiry. It turns out that most of the anti-Catholic statements from Hitler were meant for consumption by Protestant audiences and vice versa. He was only "anti-Christian" in that he would court one by making snide remarks about the other. He certainly considered himself a Christian and never failed to collect taxes for both the Catholic and Protestant churches. Mein Kampf was heavily influenced by Martin Luther's On The Jews And Their Lies. Hitler was a Christian and so were the overwhelming majority of his followers.Frank Hipper wrote:You're not calling the Nazis a religious organisation, are you?Elfdart wrote:Rios Montt was a bible-thumping Generalissimo in Guatemala who helped murder over 180,000 people in the late 1970s to early 1980s -@1000 years after the so-called Dark Ages. Bin Laden is small time compared to that. Islam is way behind Christianity when it comes to death tolls. The Nazi Holocaust alone killed more people than all the towel-wrappers combined.
Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
Not only was Stalin not the biggest murderer, he wasn't even the biggest communist murderer, but that's a subject I won't get into now. I was comparing the Nazi Holocaust to Islam's crimes, not communism's. So save your Farrakhan math for some other time.Rogue 9 wrote:The Nazi Holocaust was not motivated by religion. It was motivated by extreme nationalism. Further, if we really want to get into who killed the most people in recent memory, that lands at the feet of Josef Vissarionovich Stalin, who had people killed for homosexuality, opposing the Party, and holding religious beliefs including both Christianity and Islam, among other things. Next.Elfdart wrote:Islam is way behind Christianity when it comes to death tolls. The Nazi Holocaust alone killed more people than all the towel-wrappers combined.
There is nothing nationalistic about hating Jews. Did the Viet Cong hate Jews? Does the IRA? What about ETA? But there is something in Christianity that does promote Jew hatred and it didn't begin with Mel Gibson and The Splatter Of The Christ.
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
And I was comparing the Nazis to the Communists. Its just as relevant as comparing the Nazis to the Islamofascists, if not more so. I was making a point; such atrocities are not limited to or caused solely by religion. They are the product of extremism in the name of a cause in general.Elfdart wrote:Not only was Stalin not the biggest murderer, he wasn't even the biggest communist murderer, but that's a subject I won't get into now. I was comparing the Nazi Holocaust to Islam's crimes, not communism's. So save your Farrakhan math for some other time.Rogue 9 wrote:The Nazi Holocaust was not motivated by religion. It was motivated by extreme nationalism. Further, if we really want to get into who killed the most people in recent memory, that lands at the feet of Josef Vissarionovich Stalin, who had people killed for homosexuality, opposing the Party, and holding religious beliefs including both Christianity and Islam, among other things. Next.Elfdart wrote:Islam is way behind Christianity when it comes to death tolls. The Nazi Holocaust alone killed more people than all the towel-wrappers combined.
And *Whoosh* goes the point, right over your head. Hatred of Jews isn't intrinsic to nationalism and I didn't say it is. The Nazi demonizing of the Jews was a means to an end, not the end itself. That end was the unification of the German people by giving them a common enemy.There is nothing nationalistic about hating Jews. Did the Viet Cong hate Jews? Does the IRA? What about ETA?
Not really. Christ Himself was a Jew, and so were the disciples and the earliest Christians. Paul of Tarsus was a Jew. I could go on. If hatred of Jews was intrinsic to Christianity the paradox would be unsurvivable, since we'd have to hate Christ. Sorry, you're wrong.But there is something in Christianity that does promote Jew hatred and it didn't begin with Mel Gibson and The Splatter Of The Christ.
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
Being well aware of that, I still have to ask if National Socialism was a religious movement in your view. A religious movement like current wahhabists are a religious movement?Elfdart wrote:Hitler wrote "In my struggle against world Jewry, I am doing The Lord's work.". He also exempted himself and Jesus Christ from the Nuremberg "racial hygiene" laws. Gregory Paul has a lot more in a series of articles he did for Free Inquiry. It turns out that most of the anti-Catholic statements from Hitler were meant for consumption by Protestant audiences and vice versa. He was only "anti-Christian" in that he would court one by making snide remarks about the other. He certainly considered himself a Christian and never failed to collect taxes for both the Catholic and Protestant churches. Mein Kampf was heavily influenced by Martin Luther's On The Jews And Their Lies. Hitler was a Christian and so were the overwhelming majority of his followers.
Of course Hitler was Christian who used Luther's writings, but was the Holocaust a religiously motivated action or was it an exercise in racism grasping whatever hatred it could use?
Last edited by Frank Hipper on 2004-08-31 11:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
If Hitler and friends were so motivated by Christian ideology why was their new national church to require the removal of all Christian crosses (replaced with Swastikas), bibles (replaced with Mein Kampf) and pictures of saints from churches.Elfdart wrote: Hitler was a Christian and so were the overwhelming majority of his followers.
The thirty point program laid out for the Reich’s church makes it rather clear that the new state religion (and naturally the only one allowed) wasn't going to be Christian but a weird mix of pagan beliefs and state worship (the state being inseparable from Nazi ideology).
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Because they were the Hated Enemy of the Aryan Race (tm). Hitler's plan worked marvelously, as least as far as he was concerned; he'd ingrained pathological hatred of the Jews into the Germans and particularly the SS by the end of the war, so yes, they killed the Jews rather than see them go free. Hitler didn't plan on losing, so he didn't plan for the effects of setting things up so that hatred of the Jews was greater than hatred of the Allies when said Allies were crashing through the Fatherland. The will to hurry up and kill everyone in the camps before they could be liberated rather than going out and using the bullets and gas on the Allied armies was one such effect.Elfdart wrote:No, destruction of Jews was in fact one of the main GOALS of the Nazis, not the means. That's why even when Germany was losing the war, killing Untermenschen took precedence over military necessity. Hitler's nationalism called for removing all Jews and Gypsies from Europe.
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Re: Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa
If Nazism wasn't a religious movement, neither is Al-Queda. Both have temporal goals, but think God gives them permission to commit any crime they want. The Nazis wanted "sub-humans" removed from Europe and for Germany to dominate the continent in a new Reich. Al-Queda wants US and other foreign influences removed from the Middle East and restoration of the Caliphate. The difference is that Hitler had a slight chance of pulling it off, whereas Al-Queda has none whatsoever.Frank Hipper wrote:Being well aware of that, I still have to ask if National Socialism was a religious movement in your view. A religious movement like current wahhabists are a religious movvement?Elfdart wrote:Hitler wrote "In my struggle against world Jewry, I am doing The Lord's work.". He also exempted himself and Jesus Christ from the Nuremberg "racial hygiene" laws. Gregory Paul has a lot more in a series of articles he did for Free Inquiry. It turns out that most of the anti-Catholic statements from Hitler were meant for consumption by Protestant audiences and vice versa. He was only "anti-Christian" in that he would court one by making snide remarks about the other. He certainly considered himself a Christian and never failed to collect taxes for both the Catholic and Protestant churches. Mein Kampf was heavily influenced by Martin Luther's On The Jews And Their Lies. Hitler was a Christian and so were the overwhelming majority of his followers.
Of course Hitler was Christian who used Luther's writings, but was the Holocaust a religiously motivated action or was it an exercise in racism grasping whatever hatred it could use?
As for racism/ religion. Trying to separate racism from religion with the Nazis (or the KKK for that matter) is like trying to separate flour from yeast and water in a loaf of bread. From the Old Testament's curse on Ham, scripture has been a warrant for racism. Blacks, Indians, Palestinians, Slavs, even the Welsh have been forced into slavery or serfdom because the Bible condones treating The Other as livestock (the hewers of wood and drawers of water part).
Any political/ national/ racial/ religious movement will have attributes that are not purely political/ national/ racial or religious. Anyone who tries to convince you that the Church wasn't an integral part of the Third Reich (by blaming neo-pagans, for example) is pulling your leg and reaching for your pud. Make sure they keep their hands where you can see them!