Dutch MP Defies Islam.....recieves fatwa after fatwa

[Frank Hipper]

You don't honestly think that the Third Reich would have deferred to a religious sanction against it, do you Elfdart?

(edit) Read "religious" in the above as "a German church's"...

[Durandal]

No, destruction of Jews was in fact one of the main GOALS of the Nazis, not the means. That's why even when Germany was losing the war, killing Untermenschen took precedence over military necessity. Hitler's nationalism called for removing all Jews and Gypsies from Europe.

Because they were the Hated Enemy of the Aryan Race (tm).

And he got that idea from where? That's right boys and girls, Martin Luther's On Jews and Their Lies.

The Jews were not some convenient scapegoat. Hitler really did want them exterminated, and he really did think he was doing God's work by doing so, as did those under his command. You don't devote the kind of effort to a scapegoat that the Nazis devoted to exterminating the Jews.

[Falkenhayn]

No, they just massacred the Albigensians down to the last man, woman, and child and called for the Holy Crusades against the Infidels, among many other atrocities committed during their military expansionist era. No doubt you will object that it was a long time ago, but that is irrelevant when asking if something is an intrinsic feature of a religion.

Alright, when to intrinsic features cease to become so?

When the documents that give rise to these features are revised.

And don't say they last forever, I think 500 years is quite good enough personally.

Really? What revisions have been made to the Bible in the last 500 years? As long as that document does not change, it is always possible that the behaviour once inspired by it will return.

At what point do those instances become relegated to the past and are no longer considered a facet of the current form?

See above.

The King James version actually, written in accordance with the Church of England, and omitting a half dozen books of scripture which are found in Catholic Bibles.

[TheDarkling]

If Nazism wasn't a religious movement, neither is Al-Queda. Both have temporal goals, but think God gives them permission to commit any crime they want.

When a high ranking member of Al-Queda says Al-Queda and Islam are incompatible like Bormann said of National Socialism and Christianity you may be onto something.

[Lord MJ]

The Nazi Holocaust was not motivated by religion. It was motivated by extreme nationalism. Further, if we really want to get into who killed the most people in recent memory, that lands at the feet of Josef Vissarionovich Stalin, who had people killed for homosexuality, opposing the Party, and holding religious beliefs including both Christianity and Islam, among other things. Next.

Are you kidding? You think that the extreme anti-Jewish beliefs and actions in Nazi German wasn't grounded in religious belief? What are you smoking? Read Mein Kampf and tell me that again.

You think that the motive behind it all wasn't to unite Germany behind Hitler against a common foe, namely the Jews? Read Mein Kampf and tell me that again. Besides, what about the other half of the Holocaust victims, who were not Jews? What about the Poles, was there some religious imperative to kill them? The Gypsies?

German persecution and hatred of the Jews dates back long before Hitler and the holocaust.

And a lot of that hatred was because of religion.

[Frank Hipper]

German persecution and hatred of the Jews dates back long before Hitler and the holocaust.

And a lot of that hatred was because of religion.

That's true of Europe as a whole, though.

[Elfdart]

You don't honestly think that the Third Reich would have deferred to a religious sanction against it, do you Elfdart?

(edit) Read "religious" in the above as "a German church's"...

The Nazis would have never come to power in the first place had not right-wing Catholic leaders persuaded their followers to dump Zentrum (the right-wing Catholic party) for the Nazis.

Paul's article debunks a lot of commonly held myths about Hitler and his stance on Christianity:

www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/paul_23_4.html

[Frank Hipper]

You don't honestly think that the Third Reich would have deferred to a religious sanction against it, do you Elfdart?

(edit) Read "religious" in the above as "a German church's"...

The Nazis would have never come to power in the first place had not right-wing Catholic leaders persuaded their followers to dump Zentrum (the right-wing Catholic party) for the Nazis.

Paul's article debunks a lot of commonly held myths about Hitler and his stance on Christianity:

www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/paul_23_4.html

That's nice...but not what I asked.
Again, if a German church had publicly denounced the NSDAP's anti-semitic policies in the name of Jesus, do you think they would have deferred to them out of respect of a fellow Christian organisation?

[tharkûn]

Hitler's religious views seem to be consistently adjusted to fit with the local populace. When he was campaigning for authortarianism in Austria he chided his leader for his anti-papist position.

Jews were historically hated in Germany (and Europe) not just solely because of religion, but because they were (especially in Germany) RICH. Due to medieval constraints against Jews working the land they became merchants, artisans, bankers (who could loan money to Christians usuriously), and tax collectors. The latter two made Jews EXTREMELY unpopular; and made them a quite handy scapegoat. Wealthy enough to invite envy, but not powerful enough to resist.

Frankly though, it is bloody obvious that killing Poles and Russians in mass had jack didly squat to do with religion. Why is so astounding to beleive that Hitler USED religion instead of Hitler being used BY religion?

[Durandal]

Frankly though, it is bloody obvious that killing Poles and Russians in mass had jack didly squat to do with religion. Why is so astounding to beleive that Hitler USED religion instead of Hitler being used BY religion?

And why is it so difficult to believe that a religion (especially a popular one such as Christianity) which allows itself to be used in such a manner is hugely flawed and in need of change?

[Frank Hipper]

Frankly though, it is bloody obvious that killing Poles and Russians in mass had jack didly squat to do with religion. Why is so astounding to beleive that Hitler USED religion instead of Hitler being used BY religion?

And why is it so difficult to believe that a religion (especially a popular one such as Christianity) which allows itself to be used in such a manner is hugely flawed and in need of change?

Can you clarify how Christianity is responsible for being used by Hitler?

Christians who wail in righteous indignation against Hitler's proclaiming faith is one thing, but how do you justify that statement above?

[Falkenhayn]

Are you kidding? You think that the extreme anti-Jewish beliefs and actions in Nazi German wasn't grounded in religious belief? What are you smoking? Read Mein Kampf and tell me that again.

You think that the motive behind it all wasn't to unite Germany behind Hitler against a common foe, namely the Jews? Read Mein Kampf and tell me that again. Besides, what about the other half of the Holocaust victims, who were not Jews? What about the Poles, was there some religious imperative to kill them? The Gypsies?

German persecution and hatred of the Jews dates back long before Hitler and the holocaust.
And a lot of that hatred was because of religion.

The First Crusade, when Count Emmich von Leisingen broke into the Ecclesiatical palace of the Archbishop of Wurms to slaughter the Jews that were taking shelter there under the Archbishop's protection, and killed five hundred Jews in spite of the Bishop's protests.

He made a repeat performance at Mainz five days later, and again forced his way through gates locked against him by Ecclesiastical order, stormed another Archbishop's palace and killed a thousand Jews. After accepting a bribe of seven pounds of gold for said Jew's lives.

[TheDarkling]

Again, if a German church had publicly denounced the NSDAP's anti-semitic policies in the name of Jesus, do you think they would have deferred to them out of respect of a fellow Christian organisation?

The future Pope Pius XII was condemning Hitler and racial ideology from (at least) 35 onwards and it made little difference (because Hitler had disdain for organised Christianity, if not Christianity itself).

[Frank Hipper]

Again, if a German church had publicly denounced the NSDAP's anti-semitic policies in the name of Jesus, do you think they would have deferred to them out of respect of a fellow Christian organisation?

The future Pope Pius XII was condemning Hitler and racial ideology from (at least) 35 onwards and it made little difference (because Hitler had disdain for organised Christianity, if not Christianity itself).

What do you think his life expectancy would have been had he been a German?

[TheDarkling]

What do you think his life expectancy would have been had he been a German?

I doubt even Hitler would have assassinated the Pope, whacking anonymous local clergy is one thing but killing the Pope would cause him all manner of problems (especially with his Italian allies).

Then again Hitler was hardly one to let reality stop him and Goebbels was already planning "an over-all solution" to the Catholic problem after the war (and I think we know what that means).