STGOD 4 OOC Thread (part 2)

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-09-01 11:42am

Dahak wrote:Even *if* he had such a survey mission there, the fact that he missed my home systems sitting basically right next to this planet, and NOT spot them would speak volumes about the quality of the surveys in question...

You live in gas giants. He's surveying more or less Terra type planets. *shrug* It'd be a matter of not looking for you.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 11:43am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that you could scan one planet closely enough to notice people in caves, but not notice that the entire region is saturated in radio waves from centuries/decades of radio use?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-01 11:45am

Stormbringer wrote:
Dahak wrote:Even *if* he had such a survey mission there, the fact that he missed my home systems sitting basically right next to this planet, and NOT spot them would speak volumes about the quality of the surveys in question...
You live in gas giants. He's surveying more or less Terra type planets. *shrug* It'd be a matter of not looking for you.

Well, you can't hide the fact that there is a civ, fully industrialized at our tech level, with all the noise, energies, et al it would have sent in the void for centuries...

Marcao · Post by **Marcao** » 2004-09-01 11:51am

Stormbringer wrote:
Dahak wrote:I can be haughty and lie through my teeth, can't I?
Sure, but given that they'll know it the option becomes remarkably less effective.

Dahak wrote:But he can't just make up mission that would not have worked that way just because I stepped on his toes.
Given your isolationism you'd be hard pressed to say that he couldn't have explored it. But I think that's an issue for a mod to determine.

Okay, I will throw my hand in this eventhough I want Pablo to give it a look since it could be argued that since I am a member of the Accord as is Dahak, I could be in conflict of interest domain. I do not think this is the case, but here I go anyway.

Irregardless, of isolationism or not, Dahak made the rules of his mining when he wrote the post. If the system is as close to his home systems as he describes, I find it difficult to believe that any ship could manage to do the scanning, let alone something that is simply pulled out of thin air. Rogue9 did not do any post in the IC thread detailing this survey action. Had he had done this, perhaps it would have been more readily allowable. As it stands now, we are to believe that 50 years ago, a survey ship waltzed into Gladsheim space without being detected or hindered.

Isolationism does not make you stupid, and if anything, should make your patrols of your borders even more active than a non-isolationist power since you are actively trying to limit external interference within your sphere of influence. The Vampires seem to be isolationist (or they are damned good at moving in the dark) but I would not look upon an argument that "nation X surveyed out a system next to the Vampire home system" out of the blue.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-01 11:51am

Dahak wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Dahak wrote:I can be haughty and lie through my teeth, can't I?
Sure, but given that they'll know it the option becomes remarkably less effective.

Dahak wrote:But he can't just make up mission that would not have worked that way just because I stepped on his toes.
Given your isolationism you'd be hard pressed to say that he couldn't have explored it. But I think that's an issue for a mod to determine.
Even *if* he had such a survey mission there, the fact that he missed my home systems sitting basically right next to this planet, and NOT spot them would speak volumes about the quality of the surveys in question...

You're assuming that I missed your planets. Please, point to where I said I missed your planets. Because that's a hell of an assumption. The fact that I run an astrographical survey is established already, at the time of first contact with the Baelorans. The survey's mission is not to make first contact, but rather to map the local area of the galaxy. There's no reason to assume that they'd have called you up had they noticed you in the area; this isn't Starfleet. Their job is to make a note of where things are, and move on.

Frankly, Dahak, this superiority complex of your nation's is getting annoying. Either it's not true, in which case it will come crashing down around your ears someday, or it is, in which case you need a heavy dose of mod stick to make you conform to the tech level. Pick one.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 11:52am

Rogue, it's quite ironic you claim a superiority compelx, and then proceed to asspull a multi-month retcon for the purpose of getting the last word in a debate.

That's just fucking stupid.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-01 11:55am

SirNitram wrote:Rogue, it's quite ironic you claim a superiority compelx, and then proceed to asspull a multi-month retcon for the purpose of getting the last word in a debate. That's just fucking stupid.

Who's retconning? Point to where it was established that there were no sentients on the world. Can you? If you can't, it's not a retcon. And that superiority complex is rather plain to see, given that he makes a point of talking about how inferior everyone else is every time he posts.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-01 11:56am

Rogue 9 wrote: You're assuming that I missed your planets. Please, point to where I said I missed your planets. Because that's a hell of an assumption. The fact that I run an astrographical survey is established already, at the time of first contact with the Baelorans. The survey's mission is not to make first contact, but rather to map the local area of the galaxy. There's no reason to assume that they'd have called you up had they noticed you in the area; this isn't Starfleet. Their job is to make a note of where things are, and move on.

Frankly, Dahak, this superiority complex of your nation's is getting annoying. Either it's not true, in which case it will come crashing down around your ears someday, or it is, in which case you need a heavy dose of mod stick to make you conform to the tech level. Pick one.

Ah yes, you stay long enough to scan a bleeding planet for *caves* and turn a complete blind eye to an even more interesting source of technological interst?
I don't see how, unless they are really pathetic scientists and surveyors. YOu do think I would have *my* territory be totally unobserved?
And should your survey guys come looking for signs of technology and life (after all they were interested enough in cavemen, why would they ignore a more advanced species?)

Point of fact: You're pissed that I rained on your parade and painted you in a bad light. You couldn't handle it in-game, nor ooc, so you resorted to making shit up just to prove your point and appear as the righteous little nation you want to be.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-09-01 11:58am

Rogue 9 wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Rogue, it's quite ironic you claim a superiority compelx, and then proceed to asspull a multi-month retcon for the purpose of getting the last word in a debate. That's just fucking stupid.
Who's retconning? Point to where it was established that there were no sentients on the world. Can you? If you can't, it's not a retcon. And that superiority complex is rather plain to see, given that he makes a point of talking about how inferior everyone else is every time he posts.

And you make a point of saying stupid things and having no fucking spine in game. Big fucking deal.

The retcon is that you never posted a damn thing about this before, but, hey, when it looks like it might be handy to win a debate, you yank it firmly out of your ass.

Lemme put it like this: What if the Etern diplomat stated, in my next post, to have proof you oppressed and enslaved primitives in your recent history? There's no indication of that. There's no proof of it now. There's not even any way the Etern could have known. But it'd be exactly the same: Bullshit retconning to win an argument.

I repeat the statement of your stupidity in thinking this'll fly.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-01 11:59am

Rogue 9 wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Rogue, it's quite ironic you claim a superiority compelx, and then proceed to asspull a multi-month retcon for the purpose of getting the last word in a debate. That's just fucking stupid.
Who's retconning? Point to where it was established that there were no sentients on the world. Can you? If you can't, it's not a retcon. And that superiority complex is rather plain to see, given that he makes a point of talking about how inferior everyone else is every time he posts.

Ah, but that would be my post, wouldn't it?
And there is clear as day the fact that there weren't any sentients on that planet. If your assumed survey mission found those caveman, I daresay a fleet of warships scanning the planet would also find something of interest...

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-01 12:05pm

Rogue 9 wrote:[OOC: Frankly, staying hidden for hundreds of years while running an interstellar power in close proximity to other interstellar powers, particularly one like yours where everyone has a constantly functioning transmitter implanted in his skull, is patently ridiculous. Someone would have found you.]

Have a look at the map, would you? There is quite some space towards other nations in known space. Secondly, we're not expansionist, so we're happy with the few systems we call our home and don't boast a freaking large territorial empire.
And those transmitters, case you care to look at the oob, is a point-to-point type of communication, so it won't broadcast.
The days of radio are past.
It is called "Known Space" for a reason, you know? And being outside "Known Space" does also mean something.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-01 12:11pm

Dahak wrote:And those transmitters, case you care to look at the oob, is a point-to-point type of communication, so it won't broadcast.

Physical impossibility. Without some means of transmission the message would never reach its destination.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-01 12:12pm

So, wait, let me see if I understand this correctly.

Dahak is isolationist. Any ships coming into his territory without permission are turned away and/or destroyed.

Dahak's territory, as is standard, contains early-warning sensor nets and has regular ship patrols.

Yet somehow, despite all of this, a survey team got in fifty years ago and determined that there was sentient life on a planet that would be clearly inside Gladsheim territorial space, all without any problems at all?

Not bloody likely.

Even if that were the case, the Gladsheim determined there was no sentient life on the planet when they went to strip-mine it. Any number of things could have happened such that both stories would remain accurate. There is a fifty year gap, after all, so some sort of catastrophic event could have occured which rendered the detected race extinct, anything from a plague, to an Alaska-sized meteor, to a rogue battlegroup eager to kill something during the Genocide Wars (and subsequently annihilated by the Gladsheim.

The fact is, this bickering is pointless. The Gladsheim attitude is what it is, and if you are that bothered by it, that's your problem. Declare war, do intel ops on them, or something, but making up stuff on the fly is not cool, and it is made even less cool when the reason seems to be because you have some wounded pride.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-01 12:13pm

Dahak wrote:And those transmitters, case you care to look at the oob, is a point-to-point type of communication, so it won't broadcast.
The days of radio are past.

Light speed communications and FTL travel mesh in funny ways. You did use radio at some point (every nation currently in play can be assumed as such, I think) in your history. There would still be a shell of communications in the radio bands perhaps 100 lightyears deep (depending on how long you used radio) expanding through space away from your worlds. This wouldn't give a nearly exact fix on your location (and wouldn't reveal your gas-giant cities, as I don't think you started living in their until after you abandoned radio). But it would still indicate that there is someone living somewhere over in that direction..

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-01 12:14pm

Rogue 9 wrote:Physical impossibility. Without some means of transmission the message would never reach its destination.

We have allowed ansibles in the past. I'm not sure if we can give him a point-to-point transmitter capable of fitting inside a human skull unless it's range is extremely limited.

Marcao wrote:Isolationism does not make you stupid, and if anything, should make your patrols of your borders even more active than a non-isolationist power since you are actively trying to limit external interference within your sphere of influence. The Vampires seem to be isolationist (or they are damned good at moving in the dark)

No comment.

but I would not look upon an argument that "nation X surveyed out a system next to the Vampire home system" out of the blue.

Yes, definitely so. I don't see how or why you would have survey craft zipping across national borders to look at planets which are 90% dead. It's just retconning bullshit to win an argument.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-09-01 12:15pm

No, the reason is because he's a damned asshole who's suddenly all sweetness and light when it comes time to try and ream me. I don't buy it. If he gets to retcon his entire national attitude towards primitive worlds (no doubt temporary, lasting only until it's no longer convenient to be that way), I get to let my survey do it's damned job. And if he intercepted and destroyed survey ships, well then he can't have remained very hidden, could he?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-01 12:15pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Dahak wrote:And those transmitters, case you care to look at the oob, is a point-to-point type of communication, so it won't broadcast.
Physical impossibility. Without some means of transmission the message would never reach its destination.

Quantum communications? Via integrity channels? It goes from point A straight to point B, without transmitting anything in between. Has been in my oob from the very beginning, even when this was all the Stuart Corporation in the other STGOD...

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-01 12:19pm

Rogue 9 wrote:No, the reason is because he's a damned asshole who's suddenly all sweetness and light when it comes time to try and ream me. I don't buy it. If he gets to retcon his entire national attitude towards primitive worlds (no doubt temporary, lasting only until it's no longer convenient to be that way), I get to let my survey do it's damned job. And if he intercepted and destroyed survey ships, well then he can't have remained very hidden, could he?

I didn't retcon my attitude. I just don't broadcast it and hand out press reports, especially not in that environment. My representative said what he said, it doesn't mean it is or ever was our attitude, nor it is the truth. That is called lieing and political maneuvring to gain some ulterior motives.
I think the Etern are intriguing. So I might be trying to just help them gain their goal for some ulterior motives of my own?

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2004-09-01 12:19pm

Dahak wrote:Quantum communications? Via integrity channels? It goes from point A straight to point B, without transmitting anything in between. Has been in my oob from the very beginning, even when this was all the Stuart Corporation in the other STGOD...

I just want to verify a couple things.

1) What range limitations are present? I don't want a hand-held (or cybernetic in-skull) transmitter than can talk to people lightyears away--unless it's networking into a larger transmitter or something of the sort.
2) Is jamming possible, and can transmissions be detected by sensors?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-01 12:22pm

Rogue 9 wrote:No, the reason is because he's a damned asshole who's suddenly all sweetness and light when it comes time to try and ream me. I don't buy it.

And Thirdfain's a nice guy who's all evil and murder when it comes time to play the STGOD. What is your point?

If he gets to retcon his entire national attitude towards primitive worlds (no doubt temporary, lasting only until it's no longer convenient to be that way), I get to let my survey do it's damned job.

Um, what? What the hell is Dahak retconning? Last I checked, he's at most lying and giving your man on the ground a hard time. That doesn't constitute retconning. Making up an operation on the spot that would drastically affect already established past events, however, IS retroactive continuity.

And if he intercepted and destroyed survey ships, well then he can't have remained very hidden, could he?

Do you not understand the difference between saying "go away" and "nobody's home"?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-09-01 12:23pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Dahak wrote:Quantum communications? Via integrity channels? It goes from point A straight to point B, without transmitting anything in between. Has been in my oob from the very beginning, even when this was all the Stuart Corporation in the other STGOD...
I just want to verify a couple things.

1) What range limitations are present? I don't want a hand-held (or cybernetic in-skull) transmitter than can talk to people lightyears away--unless it's networking into a larger transmitter or something of the sort.
2) Is jamming possible, and can transmissions be detected by sensors?

1) It isn't light-years ranged. Say one or two light-minutes at the very maximum. In my territory, that is no problem, as I do have relais, network, et al. Away from home, they route it through com arrays on their ships, that'S why they never go anywhere without ships of their own.
2) We had it IIRC with Beowulfs Ansibles. Jamming would require some really hefty and really intriguing application of possibly Quantek style technology.
And I agreed to Hotfoot, that my people would stand out like a christmas tree afire in the Sahara to any Quantek sensor.

Bugsby · Post by **Bugsby** » 2004-09-01 12:31pm

consequences wrote:Replicator knockoffs are really the only thing I'm actively building. Since we've taken deliberate steps to not allow a returned Overseer any sort of back-door into our constructs, it should logically follow that they wouldn't be easily detectable by the same means used to find Overseer constructs.
And waste all the effort you want to looking for people running your little blockade.

Uh.... ok, fine. If this is the case, just ignore my last few posts. I'll let you have this.

Just a few words of caution. First, keep in mind my timetable argument. Overseer tech is very different from what everyone else is using, and it will take a while for you to effectively adapt it. If I see "usable Overseer tech" appearing in the next month or so, I will have my finger hovering over the "BS BUTTON".

Second, I would be interesting inknowing how you are procuring this tech. If it is anything coming out of the slavage area, I will know. Trust me on this. If you think you got this tech fromthat one world in your territory, re-read that post where we turned that entire planet into dust by means of a prolonged planetary ombardment. Investigating those remains, you might be able to find that they used silicon in thier computers. You could have bought this from Nashtar, if they salvaged anything from that fleet they kiked around. But you didn't even hint at that. Not that that's too big a problem, I'm just saying. And there are also some wrecks on Earth. But I don't recall you having ships in the area at the time. OS tech can only be obtained from a few VERY limited sources. I just want to make sure that you are getting it from somewhere legit.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-09-01 12:34pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Dahak wrote:Quantum communications? Via integrity channels? It goes from point A straight to point B, without transmitting anything in between. Has been in my oob from the very beginning, even when this was all the Stuart Corporation in the other STGOD...
I just want to verify a couple things.

1) What range limitations are present? I don't want a hand-held (or cybernetic in-skull) transmitter than can talk to people lightyears away--unless it's networking into a larger transmitter or something of the sort.
2) Is jamming possible, and can transmissions be detected by sensors?

The way I've been handling ansibles so far is thus: they require energy to broadcast interstellar distances. The reasoning behind that being that in order to maintain and manipulate the quantum entanglement over such vast distances, you need comparable energies to other FTL comms systems. Since no FTL waves would be present, the signature would be unique and identifiable.

As far as jamming, I would imagine disrupting one end of the communications would prevent transmission. If you "lose containment" of the quantum entanglement as it were, you couldn't communicate until containment was regained. Standard ECM, however, would be relatively ineffective. As Dahak mentioned, Magic/Psionic (Quantek) methods of jamming could very well be possible. Tapping the communications would be another problem, and I'm not sure if you meant that by detecting transmissions. The only way I could see tapping as possible is if you put a listening device in the transmitter or receiver.

Of course, all of the natural networking problems of a point to point system do come into play here, namely that the hub (which I presume is on Dahak's home world) is so massive and critical that if anything were to happen to it, disasterous things would happen.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2004-09-01 12:35pm

Ansibles have been in the game from the very first. The firs empire I had in the current universe used them extensively. Of course, I always had them being of such a size that you required at least a fighter to hold them... Ansibles have not as of yet been jammable, but suitable application of Quantek may be able to do so. I'm going to be coming up with a different comm system, the next time I end up with an empire.

As for the radio wave sphere, that ain't going to get you a very precise locus. You may be able to figure out which systems, but not which planet.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-01 04:31pm

Did me and Hotfoot post at the same time? Because his idea sounds alot like Nitram's, which he graciously allowed me to post.