SW Fighters v. Trek Caps: Room For Heavy Warheads?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm not sure. Give me a couple days and I'll produce them (the quotes). I know who gave the original ones to me. Stand fast.

[Connor MacLeod]

A final note: TIE's do not carry missiles internally. Every reference I've ever seen of non-Bomber/Scimitar craft carrying missiles has them carried externally, on racks along the 'wings'. The TIE/D's armanant seems to be mounted on the outside of each wing.

Which sources? I dont recall ever seeing any SW ships mounting external loads (Except maybe for the K-wing)

IIRC, illustrations in WEG sourcebooks.

Any particular ones?

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm not sure. Give me a couple days and I'll produce them (the quotes). I know who gave the original ones to me. Stand fast.

Alright

[Illuminatus Primus]

He's right. There's NO example of any externally mounted weaponry except for the K-Wing. An example of that is in the illustration in the Essential Chronology opposite the page on the War with the Yevetha.

Repeat: There is NO weapons mounted on the external surface of any other ship, ever. In ANY description.

As Wong has said against Trekkies, just because they'd have the potential ability to do something with their tech doesn't mean they actually do that, hence why "made up tech" is bullshit in Trekkie arguments. Same thing here. There must be some reason, but never are warheads carried externally except for one illustration of the K-Wing.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And one last thing: I NEVER said Rogue Leader was apocryphal. I said the missions that contradict X-Wing Alliance are apocryphal.

[Master of Ossus]

He's right. There's NO example of any externally mounted weaponry except for the K-Wing. An example of that is in the illustration in the Essential Chronology opposite the page on the War with the Yevetha.

Repeat: There is NO weapons mounted on the external surface of any other ship, ever. In ANY description.

As Wong has said against Trekkies, just because they'd have the potential ability to do something with their tech doesn't mean they actually do that, hence why "made up tech" is bullshit in Trekkie arguments. Same thing here. There must be some reason, but never are warheads carried externally except for one illustration of the K-Wing.

That's not QUITE accurate. An X-Wing on Borleias in Rebel Stand was modified to carry a large warhead that was designed to confuse the dovin bassals of Yuuzhan Vong craft and ground forces, but the missile SEVERELY limited its other combat capabilities. Your point still stands, however. External weapons racks appear to be extremely rare and limited in SW.

[Master of Ossus]

Gentlemen, the STORIES of the games are considered to be official, but the GAMEPLAY mechanics are NOT considered to be official. They are apocryphal. This is designed to prevent people from modifying the game's programming code, and then claiming that what they created is canon information. Missile payloads and things like that go under the GAMEPLAY mechanics section. So do the different capabilities of the starships and weapons portrayed in the games. Thus, the games are not a valid source of information regarding the weapons payloads (or, for that matter, the shields and armor capabilities of different targets) for our debates.

[Connor MacLeod]

He's right. There's NO example of any externally mounted weaponry except for the K-Wing. An example of that is in the illustration in the Essential Chronology opposite the page on the War with the Yevetha.

Repeat: There is NO weapons mounted on the external surface of any other ship, ever. In ANY description.

As Wong has said against Trekkies, just because they'd have the potential ability to do something with their tech doesn't mean they actually do that, hence why "made up tech" is bullshit in Trekkie arguments. Same thing here. There must be some reason, but never are warheads carried externally except for one illustration of the K-Wing.

That's not QUITE accurate. An X-Wing on Borleias in Rebel Stand was modified to carry a large warhead that was designed to confuse the dovin bassals of Yuuzhan Vong craft and ground forces, but the missile SEVERELY limited its other combat capabilities. Your point still stands, however. External weapons racks appear to be extremely rare and limited in SW.

Correct. There are also the external fuel pods I forgot about in Rogue Squadron.

[Connor MacLeod]

Gentlemen, the STORIES of the games are considered to be official, but the GAMEPLAY mechanics are NOT considered to be official. They are apocryphal. This is designed to prevent people from modifying the game's programming code, and then claiming that what they created is canon information. Missile payloads and things like that go under the GAMEPLAY mechanics section. So do the different capabilities of the starships and weapons portrayed in the games. Thus, the games are not a valid source of information regarding the weapons payloads (or, for that matter, the shields and armor capabilities of different targets) for our debates.

Erm.. I think you're taking too categorical an approach towards this - while certain aspects can be considered "gameplay" and thus ignored/modified for purposes of analysi. While I agree on some (shields and armor would, as would flight mechanics be simplified and weapons outputs for some weapons or the ability of lasers to damage capital ships) I don't think you can dismiss everything (like missile payloads) that is non-story under gameplay. Dismissal has to be handled in a case-by-case basis.

[Illuminatus Primus]

He's right though about much of it. I don't see how cap-ship killers can be mounted on the miniscule missile launchers in a TIE Advanced, but according to X-Wing Alliance, a highly compact A Wing can carry more warheads then an X Wing, despite how the A Wing is always described as minimalist and cramming space...and the Essential Guide makes it see like the concussion missiles are small and added as afterthought.

[Master of Ossus]

But the weapons payloads in the game are wrong. Note the TIE Interceptor's lack of the two "chin" laser cannons from the game, even though they are established by canon. I don't think it would be a consistent position to give the TIE Interceptor 6 laser cannons but to use the missile and torpedo payloads from the games.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Where do we see the TIE Interceptor firing it's chin laser cannon?

[Vympel]

You can find a picture on the whatever happened to the TIE Advanced X1 thread ...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Irrelevent. By Rostini's quote, everythings canon. By Sansweet's quote, movies are canon, but absolute also.

This pic will simply show that the Empire depolyed a model of TIE Interceptor with two chin laser canons and hardly means that the model described in EU books and in the X Wing Games didn't have just wing tip cannons. By the aforementioned quote, both things must be true, and that's the most likely explanation.

[Master of Ossus]

Irrelevent. By Rostini's quote, everythings canon. By Sansweet's quote, movies are canon, but absolute also.

This pic will simply show that the Empire depolyed a model of TIE Interceptor with two chin laser canons and hardly means that the model described in EU books and in the X Wing Games didn't have just wing tip cannons. By the aforementioned quote, both things must be true, and that's the most likely explanation.

No, not really. EGVV clearly states that, while the hardpoints still exist for TIE Interceptors on the "chin," there isn't enough power for the ship to install them. That's impossible to reconcile with the observed firing of TIE Interceptor cannons from the chin in RotJ.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Nonsense.

TIE Interceptors seen firing chin lasers in RoTJ are simply TIE Interceptors without wingtip guns: their generators feed chin lasers.

The mostly EU and X-Wing Alliance model of TIE Interceptors simply had improved generators, and fed them to 4 wing tip cannons and abandoned the chin cannons.

No mistake.

[The Dark]

No, not really. EGVV clearly states that, while the hardpoints still exist for TIE Interceptors on the "chin," there isn't enough power for the ship to install them. That's impossible to reconcile with the observed firing of TIE Interceptor cannons from the chin in RotJ.

One point and one question. Question first: what's EGVV? OK, point now: It's possible that they were different models of TIE Interceptor, one with an upgraded power plant capable of using chin lasers, the other a lower-powered, cheaper, non-chin laser variant. It's also possible that the early TIE Interceptors had the chin cannon, then the energy drain flaw became known of, and the cannon were removed. I know one of the WEG books having an Imperial advertisement for the Interceptor which clearly showed the chin lasers, though I'm not sure which it was (either Rebel sourcebook or Imperial sourcebook).

[Illuminatus Primus]

My points exactly. And EGVV is the "Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels."

[Master of Ossus]

No, not really. EGVV clearly states that, while the hardpoints still exist for TIE Interceptors on the "chin," there isn't enough power for the ship to install them. That's impossible to reconcile with the observed firing of TIE Interceptor cannons from the chin in RotJ.

One point and one question. Question first: what's EGVV? OK, point now: It's possible that they were different models of TIE Interceptor, one with an upgraded power plant capable of using chin lasers, the other a lower-powered, cheaper, non-chin laser variant. It's also possible that the early TIE Interceptors had the chin cannon, then the energy drain flaw became known of, and the cannon were removed. I know one of the WEG books having an Imperial advertisement for the Interceptor which clearly showed the chin lasers, though I'm not sure which it was (either Rebel sourcebook or Imperial sourcebook).

The EGVV is an acronym for The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. It is possible that the two are different models, with power going to different weapons, but I find this unlikely as no such TIE models were observed in the X-Wing Alliance game, despite the fact that the TIE's engaged in the Endor Battle were, quite obviously, from the same fleet as the ones seen in RotJ. Further, TIE's in RotJ were also seen firing their wingtip cannons (though never at the same time as firing their chin weapons), and it would be unusual for two different models of the same fighter to be flying for an elite unit at the same time, since elite units are given their choice of equipment first.

[The Dark]

The EGVV is an acronym for The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. It is possible that the two are different models, with power going to different weapons, but I find this unlikely as no such TIE models were observed in the X-Wing Alliance game, despite the fact that the TIE's engaged in the Endor Battle were, quite obviously, from the same fleet as the ones seen in RotJ. Further, TIE's in RotJ were also seen firing their wingtip cannons (though never at the same time as firing their chin weapons), and it would be unusual for two different models of the same fighter to be flying for an elite unit at the same time, since elite units are given their choice of equipment first.

Not to be overly nitpickey, but it's possible that they were from different squadrons, and not enough upgraded versions were available to equip everyone. A good example in real life would be the Korean conflict, where a carrier might be hauling WWII vintage F4U Corsair prop-driven aircraft and F9 Panther jets, and where P-51 Mustangs flew alongside F-80 Shooting Stars and F-86 Sabres.

For a more similar idea (elite unit flying two different models of a fighter), look at the Flying Tigers of World War II. They were an elite Chinese military unit (made up of Americans, in case anyone decides to say they weren't Chinese), that flew P-40C Warhawks and and P-40E Warhawks at the same time.

Another theory is that the problem was that the chin cannon drained too much power to fire both wingtip and chin cannon at the same time, and the extra cost wasn't worth whatever extra versatility there may have been.

[Master of Ossus]

Maybe. But remember that everyone associated with the Executor was basically an elite squadron or officer or enlisted man. Executor, and the ships with her, were elite units. The Flying Tigers weren't really an elite unit, but you're right about the general point.

[Sea Skimmer]

Actually the Interceptor has ten guns. Four wingtip, two chin and four more in the split of the wings. The reasoning for not firing all at once is likely that that level of firepower was not needed to deal with Rebel fighters, and using it would drain power reserves at a much higher rate.

Likely the full armament is only used for attacking very small capital units, and things like assault shuttles.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Don't be such a nitpicking bastard. Surely you're not going to call the X-Wing Alliance Battle of Endor Mission as proof there isn't two models due to canon policy.

For Christ's sake, that mission is at least partially apocryphal anyway; you shoot down the Executor (which is 8 km) in the Falcon before the shield collapses.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Please, you don't know those protrusions are guns and are almost certainly not; they're never seen firing. You can only take the "what you can see" arguments to a certain point before its absurd.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And PPOR that everyone on the Executor was elite.