Armed men seize school in southern Russia

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-09-01 05:29pm

all you get is escalation, unless you go Final Solution on them in which case there's nobody left to retaliate (and congratulations, you're a comic-book arch-villain).

Alternativly, you could attempt to obliterate their culture- kill the Clerics, burn the mosques, brainwash the children, and make teaching Islam a crime punishible by death. However, this solution is only marginally more "moral" then the final solution, and is also much more costly and difficult to impliment.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-09-01 05:57pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Alternativly, you could attempt to obliterate their culture- kill the Clerics, burn the mosques, brainwash the children, and make teaching Islam a crime punishible by death. However, this solution is only marginally more "moral" then the final solution, and is also much more costly and difficult to impliment.

Well you could always exterminate the adults down to a certain age, and then ship all the children off the camps in Siberia for reeducation of the non working to death kind.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-09-01 06:55pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Alternativly, you could attempt to obliterate their culture- kill the Clerics, burn the mosques, brainwash the children, and make teaching Islam a crime punishible by death. However, this solution is only marginally more "moral" then the final solution, and is also much more costly and difficult to impliment.
Well you could always exterminate the adults down to a certain age, and then ship all the children off the camps in Siberia for reeducation of the non working to death kind.

Both are pretty much the same thing. However, I think that the Islamic fundies would have to commit a huge atrocity (meaning one with many casulities) such as a nerve gas or nuclear attack before Russia (or anyone else for that matter) will consider this a viable option.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-09-01 07:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Well, there's always genocide, I guess.

Everybody appreciated the decisiveness with which Russia did it that last time with the gas.

If they were weak and conceded anything the last time, I'm sure this group would be screaming as hard about how they are giving in to the terrorists - if the recent nations who looked like they gave up to the Iraqi terrorists were any indication.
I'm not talking about the opera house. I'm talking about their "relaxed rules of engagement" when re-taking Chechnya and other assorted misdeeds. It's one thing to be hard on terrorists themselves, but when you go hard on their people in retaliation for what they've done (as many suggest we do to Muslims now), all you get is escalation, unless you go Final Solution on them in which case there's nobody left to retaliate (and congratulations, you're a comic-book arch-villain).
What would be incidentally, your solution for dealing with the Chechen problem - a realistic one from the Russian point of view if you please.
Devote time, money, and resources to helping the Chechen people, perhaps. Not committing atrocities in the first place would have been a good idea, but it's too late for that.

What about the Chechens' murder of those Red Cross workers. Those people were there to help them, but all they acheived was having their heads separate from their bodies and take a trip across the country.

The problem with Chechens is that a) they are known for their brutality. Throughout history, the Chechens were known as a bunch of agressive savages who raided their neighbours; and b) they have well-documented ties with Al-Quaeda. Bin Laden's agenda is their agenda as well.

Also, you may not know this, but Russia did launch a large rebuilding project in Chechnya. Of course, since Russia is almost broke, the results were less than impressive.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-09-01 09:17pm

I think it's important to remember there was no significant escalation of the conflict back when that opera house incident happened- things pretty much went on as "normal" (for Chechnya, that is). So talk of them blowing Chechnya to smaller bits of rubble than it is now is specious.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-09-01 10:41pm

Update, they don't appear to be Chechens ...

North Ossetian terrorists spell out their demands

A group of terrorists which overran a high school and took over 400 hostage earlier today, has demanded meetings with North Ossetian and Ingush presidents, Alexander Dzasokhov and Murat Zyazikov, as well as with Leonid Roshal, a renowned pediatrician, according to local news reports.

Roshal, who helped negotiate during the theater siege in Moscow in October 2002, has agreed to participate in the negotiation. He is reportedly on his way to the scene.

The demands were passed in cassette through one of the hostages, whom the terrorists had released to carry the message across to North Ossetian officials.

The unfolding hostage tragedy broke out at 9 am local time today when about 17 terrorists, including men and women, carrying waste belts loaded with explosives attacked the school in the southern Russian city of Beslan.

I don't know what interest Chechens would have with meeting with the President of North Ossetia (i.e. the Russian territory that South Ossetia, in Georgia, wants to join up with)

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-09-02 03:07am

Sick bastards.

Terrorism has reached a new low

Post by **Edi** » 2004-09-02 05:13am

Somebody here said something about Chechens and Al-Qaeda. Let's have a little background, shall we?

The original rebel groups led first by Chechen president Dzhohar Dudayev (later killed by Russians), Shamil Basayev (killed), Salman Raduyev (killed) and Aslan Mashadov (current president of Chechnya, still at large) fought against Russian troops and mainly struck at military targets, and they had a goal of an independent Chechnya. Dudayev especially and Mashadove later have repeatedly called for negotiations with the Kremlin, which Putin has consistently refused. These guys, despite being Muslims, were not of the radical fundamentalist type (though Basayev started leaning in that direction at some point before he died), but people with political goals.

The newer crop of Chechen terrorists that has replaced the old guard is led by foreign fighters from Arab countries or by Chechens who were educated in those countries, and are funded by Arab money. They also happen to be followers of Wahhabist Islam and most of them have ties to Al-Qaeda. These guys are on a jihad and their goal is to kill the infidel Russians where and when they can, as evidenced by the statements released by the Islamic group that claimed responsibility for the plane bombings.

The point is, you can reach a workable solution with groups that resort to terrorism to further political goals (see IRA, Arafat's PLO), but if religious extremists are given a foothold that enables them marginalize the political groups (e.g. Hamas & Islamic Jihad in Palestine due to actions of the Israeli government, the new groups in Chechnya due to actions of the Russian government), then any possible of settlement is lost permanently. A religious extremist will not give a fuck about political goals, because he is so filled with visions of glory and focused on smiting the enemies of his faith that there is no reasoning with him.

The situation in the Caucasus is that there are hundreds of thousands of Chechen refugees who have nothing, barely a tent to sleep in (if that), and the young men who grow up in that situation tend to grow up angry and frustrated, seeing all the wrongs perpetrated against their families and loved ones, and when the extremists offer them a chance to strike back at the people responsible for their misery, they will take it. This is made doubly easy by the fact that the refugee diaspora into the neighboring states has shattered a lot of the traditional clan structure that was responsible for taking care of people who were down on their luck.

The old guard Chechens led by Mashadov are no longer in charge. A lot of the more secular and/or moderate rebels have been either killed or bribed into Moscow's service, and now the Arab-led and Arab-funded Islamic extermists with ties to Al-Qaeda are in the driver's seat and holding the initiative.

Russia made all the same mistakes that the Israel made after 1993, with the exact same results: marginalizing the politically motivated leadership of the other side and giving the reins of power to religious extremists. They are now reaping the harvest they have sown.

Edi

Dartzap · Post by **Dartzap** » 2004-09-02 06:15am

Beeb Reports there may be almost a thousand hostages in the school, and that the army will not ne entering yet, because they are expecting a long negotiation period.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-09-02 07:02am

BESLAN - Law enforcement agencies have established the identity of some members of a group that seized a school in the North Ossetian city of Beslan, Valery Andreyev, head of the North Ossetian Department of the Federal Security Service, told reporters. "We have managed to establish their identity," he said.

For his part, North Ossetia's Interior Minister Kazbek Dzatiyev said the group of attackers included Ossetians, Ingushes, Chechens and Russians, according to preliminary information.

According to him, the terrorists said they would only speak to Aslanbek Aslakhanov, State Duma member for Chechnya, North Ossetian President Alexander Dzasokhov, Ingush President Murat Zyazikov, and also the physician Leonid Roshal, who helped negotiate during a theater siege in Moscow in October 2002. Doctor Roshal talked to the hostage takers over the phone last night. The conversation continued until 3 a.m.

According to the latest information, there are about 400 schoolchildren in the school, apart from parents and teachers. The calculation was based on consultations with the relatives of those people who could have been in the school. The militants still refuse to take medicines, food and water for the hostages.

Criminal proceedings had been opened under Articles 105 (Murder), 205 ("Terrorists"), and 206 ("Hostage taking"), Valery Andreyev said.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-02 09:05pm

Explosions this morning apparently, and a soldier at the scene told The New York Sun late last night that he witnessed children's bodies being thrown out of a window of the school earlier in the day.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-02 09:06pm

The Russians have offered the terrorists the option of releasing the hostages in return for safe passage, but the terrorists refused.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-02 09:11pm

The latest news is that some of the terrorists have been identified and their relatives brought to the scene to 'help with negotiations'.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-03 12:24am

Gazeta.ru editoral:

A wave of terror covers Russia. We have become accustomed to what has been happening and
what will happen under the Chechnyan "Counter-terrorist operation". What has happened over the
last few days appears to be the terrorist counter-operation.

The seizure of a school with children even for the present terrorist way
is a scene that is completely out of line. It is not merely a challenge. It is
the last straw. Christianity does not admit of blood feuds. But anyone who
stakes the life of a child cannot be reckoned as human. These creatures may
have no God, may have no people. This threat to kill a child is a renunciation
of membership in the family of man, it is like killing your own mother.

The Russias may expect dreadful hours, even days. On the one hand there is a principle "don't make
concessions to terrorists". For by this we only take the risk of further sacrifice. But on the other hand there
is no principle by which one can sacrifice children.

It is in this reckoning that one renounces the humane. Because the Russian power is bound, in the first
place, to save children, and in the second place to give such an answer that no one would think that this has
been a successful experiment. If the government cannot do this, then what is it good for?

The scale of the war declared on Russia in the last week is such that it is impossible to endure political
games about it.

The domestic political situation in Russia today is this. The War on Terror and the second Chechnyan campaign
have always key factors in the rise of President Putin to power. And one of his main assets (lit. skates). Every
terrorist act is exploited by the Kremlin to reinforce the political position of his power base. Conversely, Putin's
political opponents have not missed the opportunity to point out that Putin has not been able to resolve the problems
of terrorism and the Chechnyan situation as a whole.

The terrorist war against Russia which has not ceased in its relentless escalation is just just a problem for Putin. It is a problem for Russia.

And to give this principle political reality Putin must hear an array of unpleasant questions and answer that array of unpleasant questions.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-09-03 12:32am

Could this lead to Russia having their own "War on Terror"?

By this I mean thing like their own PATRIOT act and the such.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-09-03 12:39am

According to a russian-only source, there may be 1500, rather than 400 hostages.

1500! Holy fucking shit!

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-09-03 01:04am

Here's a plan of the school, in case anyone is interested:

EDIT: In case you are confused, the school is the building in the center.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » 2004-09-03 01:10am

From the looks of it, it'll be a bloodbath to rush, but y'all knew that anyways.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2004-09-03 01:18am

Almost certainly. It's got two entrances, one goes directly to the gym where the hostages are kept (a common thing, we had that in my school too). The bad part is that to reach it, one must walk along the facade of the school, with a great view from all the windows. Not a good thing at all. That leaves only one entrance, and to reach the gym from that one, you have to pass through the entire school. That gives the terrorists plenty of time to detonate the bombs. And, if there are over 1000 hostages, as newsru.com claims....

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2004-09-03 01:24am

This is an absolute clusterfuck. Are there any windows that aren't filled with children? If so they have to get 1 expert sniper per terrorist and have them headshot all the terrorists in unison thus eliminating the threat.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-09-03 01:34am

darthdavid wrote:This is an absolute clusterfuck. Are there any windows that aren't filled with children? If so they have to get 1 expert sniper per terrorist and have them headshot all the terrorists in unison thus eliminating the threat.

That'd have to be the best-coordinated series of sniper shots in history; espically since piercing glass is more then enough to throw off the aim of a bullet, normally you'd do it with two snipers on the target firing a split second apart, though 12 bullets going astary into kids is proaubabbly about the lowest body count that could be hoped for.

But its not an option in any case, I doubt you could get more then two or three lookouts with snipers, the rest will be packed in among the hostages and well out of sight form the outside, most gyms tend not to have huge masses of windows down low, if only to avoid them being broken by balls. About the only thing that's going to work is another gas attack, if the terrorists didn't bring masks, and if a way can be found to get it inside what appears to be a well-isolated building.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-09-03 01:44am

Sea Skimmer wrote:But its not an option in any case, I doubt you could get more then two or three lookouts with snipers, the rest will be packed in among the hostages and well out of sight form the outside, most gyms tend not to have huge masses of windows down low, if only to avoid them being broken by balls. About the only thing that's going to work is another gas attack, if the terrorists didn't bring masks, and if a way can be found to get it inside what appears to be a well-isolated building.

Maybe a helicopter insertion?

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-09-03 01:52am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Maybe a helicopter insertion?

They'd hear them coming; I suppose you could continually buzz the place with helicopters until they become desensitized to it, and then send in an Mi-8M or two, that should be more than enough to take out 17 tangos (28 troops each).

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-09-03 02:59am

Citizens of North Ossetia and other North Caucasian republics offer themselves as hostages to replace the women and children who are currently in the besieged school in Beslan, Professor Ruslan Bzarov told RBC. A group of men is making lists of volunteers in order to transfer them to the emergency headquarters in Beslan and then to terrorists, he said. Moreover, according to the emergency headquarters, hundreds of calls with similar proposals from citizens of the republic and other regions and countries have been received.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2004-09-03 01:49pm

So... what happened?