Sustained gunfire reported at School

[Pablo Sanchez]

Most of the Volga Germans got the hell out of their own volition while the getting was good.

Not most. A small portion. The majority (440,000 in 1941) was forcibly deported to Siberia by Stalin and were dispersed.

[Master of Ossus]

CNN is reporting 200 dead.

They also said that three of the terrorists have been taken hostage, and another 27 terrorists were killed by Russian forces.

[RedImperator]

CNN is reporting 200 dead.

They also said that three of the terrorists have been taken hostage, and another 27 terrorists were killed by Russian forces.

And ten of them were Arabs. These were jihadists, not Chechens seeking revenge (not all of them, anyway).

[jegs2]

Hostage-Takers Laughed as Kids Suffered

BESLAN, Russia — Holding up the corpse of a man just shot dead in front of hundreds of hostages at a Russian school, the rebel — his pockets stuffed with ammunition and grenades — warned: "If a child utters even a sound, we'll kill another one."

When children fainted from lack of sleep, food and water, their masked and camouflaged captors simply sneered. In the intolerable heat of the gym, adults implored children to drink their own urine.

Hours after escaping alive, a woman who had been taken hostage with her 7-year-old son and her mother spoke of three days of unspeakable horror — of children so wired with fear they couldn't sleep, of captors coolly threatening to kill hostages one by one, of a gymnasium so cramped there was hardly room to move.

"We were in complete fear," said Alla Gadieyeva, 24, who spoke to an Associated Press reporter Friday as she lay collapsed in exhaustion on a stretcher outside a hospital. "People were praying all the time and those that didn't know how to pray — we taught them."

[HemlockGrey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the standard Russian tactic in Chechnya been indiscriminate shelling and bombardment? Doesn't seem like it's been terribly effective.

The Ossetians (sp?) should be proud of themselves. Here's hoping they hunt every last fucker down.

[Saurencaerthai]

Disgusting. Purely disgusting.

[Master of Ossus]

And ten of them were Arabs. These were jihadists, not Chechens seeking revenge (not all of them, anyway).

We've known that the Chechens were getting support from a whole bunch of Arab countries for a long time, now. It makes no difference. The fact of the matter is that radical Muslims are still the enemy, regardless of whether they're from Chechnya, the Middle East, Southeast Asia, or somewhere else entirely.

[Broomstick]

Huh.

Well, I've just finished reading this whole thread up to this point, and rather than jump up and down and joining the screaming hordes heaping invective and abuse upon the scum (with apologies to various bacteria for smearing their reputations by the comparison) who started this recent mess in Ossetia (which I've probably misspelled) I'm going to throw out some random thoughts about what a sucky place the world in general has become.

Since 9/11/01 it has been blindingly obvious to me that we are in an ideological war where the opposition is not inclined to argue or negotiate - they want, essentially, the obliteration of what is commonly termed the "Western World". More accurately want to erase anyone who is not them from the face of the Earth. They are not afraid of death - nay, they are downright eager to die. This makes it very hard to discuss things with them.

As often happens when the shit hits the fan in a big way, some people labor under the delusion that they can sit out the fray. The time when a country - any country - is far enough away from war, and isolated enough that they can sit out a global war is over. Both the French and the Russians have learned this lesson this week. Although they opposed the US actions in Iraq that does not matter to the fuckwads instigating this shit - the French and the Russians are not in their little privileged group and are therefore just as evil and just as expendable as the Americans. This should have been apparent when Bali was bombed - what the fuck did Bali ever do to anyone?

The fuckwads (I will not call them Muslims - they aren't Muslims. They use religion as a mask for their true purpose - total and complete power and dominion over others) these fuckwads stirring up trouble WANT a global war and a total war, one with no rules and no holds barred. If they can't get it by blowing up 16 acres of New York City, crashing a jet into the side of the Pentagon, and killing several thousand Americans they'll try to stir it up by bombing Australians vacationing in Bali or kidnapping Nepalese laborers looking for work and making a video of their execution to be put on the Internet or financing the training of Palestinian youth to blow themselves up or supporting the heroin trade in Afganistan or wiring bombs to railroad tracks in France or, yes, taking 1500 people, mostly children, hostage on the first day of school, cramming them into a gym, and laughing while babies die of thirst and children watch their parents bleed to death in front of them.

They WANT you to be angry, and they WANT you to act in a kneejerk, irrational manner that, they hope, will further stir up trouble and lead to more death and destruction. They desire chaos and destruction, because that is the only route that will bring them to power.

Not only do these human pieces of shit - and I dont feel the comparison is fair to shit, frankly, since shit can be processed into fertilizer to produce good things like food and these people are pure poison - not only do these human pieces of shit not care that children are dying in front of them, they think killing children is a good thing because it adances their cause and bring attentions to them and gets people pissed off enough to kill.

Fact is, the main driving individuals behind all this terrorism don't give a flying fuck about Chechnya - Chechnya is just an excuse to kill, and they will use the Chechnyians, such as the "black widows", to do their killing for them, thereby bringing the wrath of a country like Russia down on all Chechnya, the good and the bad, the warlusting and the peaceful alike until in the Chechnya there will be only the peace of the grave, broken only by the sound of carrion crows and feral dogs feasting on human flesh. Ditto for the Palestinians - the likes of bin Laden don't give a flying fuck about the Palestinians, they use them to keep the killing going, to keep digging and digging into the wounds of Middle East so they never heal. As soon as Chechnya or Palestine ceases to be useful to this evil people they will be discarded or purged or allowed to starve.

And thus, you find non-Palestinians funding the violence in Palestine and Israel. And you find non-Asians funding and guiding and training guerillas in Indonesia. And you find Arabs and other foreigners among "Chechnyan" terrorists.

Now, I would dearly love to be wrong on the next point, but I fear I am not. The Bad Guys driving all this WANT a global war and a total war. They want WWIII and are actively trying to bring it about. That's pretty damn scary to anyone who has studied warfare in the 20th Century.

Such a war as the Bad Guys want will not be a war like prior wars. There will be NO front lines and everyone will be at risk. It will be bloody and ugly and involve things like collapsing buildings, burning cities, and yes, babies dying horrible painful pointless deaths. A friend of mine who is a veteran once told me that war is when you break things and kill people and that is true, that is it's essence. You break and you kill.

So, what to do? No people can allow their children to be kidnapped and slowly killed. It's intolerable. What is the most effective response? Think carefully - sterilizing Grozny might be satisfying on a visceral level but unless it truly works towards solving the problem then it is pointless and potentially counter-productive. What if the ultimate source of the problem isn't in Chechnya? If you obliterate Chechnya but the people who actually started the problem and provoked the outrage have escaped away to elsewhere you have NOT solved the problem... indeed, you may have served the ends of the Bad Guys and not your own.

When the Bad Guys adopt civilian dress... how can you tell the civilians on your side from your enemies? When every face could be the enemy do you shoot everyone? But that will destroy your allies as well, won't it?

By blending in they make EVERYONE a target, so that the innocent come to fear their government and their military that they should trust to defend them from harm.

Hunting them down with deer rifles? More power to the hunters, That may be what it takes - the locals hunting down the terrorists one by one, beating them to death if that's what it takes. But don't think a lot of innocents won't be killed along with the guilty.

[Stravo]

CNN just showed a video of the inside of the smoldering gym. You can clearly see corpses - some obviously children - burned in the rubble. Its fuckinh horrible. They are setting up an emergency aid station with 1,000 beds. This is just getting worse and worse.

If you see the look on the childredn's faces as they were put into ambulances, they had these heartbreaking haunted expressions in their eyes.

[Stark]

Guys - does it seem to anyone else that the 'emergency vehicle' may have been full of spec ops? From what I've read, its arrival triggered the explosions, gun battles, etc. So maybe that was Russias move?

[frigidmagi]

My Lady Broomstick, the innocent are already dieing in droves. I cannot see anyway to avoid innocent death in the coming conflicts. I can only hope we find a way to make thier deaths somewhat worthwhile has opposed to sensless waste like what has just happened.

[fgalkin]

Gazeta.ru is somewaht slow in translating its articles, so I'll just summarize the new info, and you'll have to wait for the English articles to come out.

-The FSB was planning the raid all along. The negotiations were a diversion. Nobody answerd their demands. Or even picked up the phone when they called.
However, they were forced to act earlier than planned
- The terrorists forced the hostages to hang bags of explosives from the ceiling. One of these bags fell down, causing the explosion.
- The death toll is likely to go over 300.
-The terrorists tried to kill the hostages by throwing grenades into their midst.
-There were no medical aid stations set up for the hostages, and almost no ambulances at the area. The hostages ahd to be driven to the hospital in the residents' cars.
-MChS planes have only now arrived in Baslan
-The terrorists barricaded themselves in the gym, using hostages as human shileds. It has taken over 8 hours to defeat them. Most of the hostages in the gym were killed.
-The terrorist caught by the crowd was not beaten to death. He was indeed beaten, but he survived, and was turned over to the authorities.
-The FSB states that there is a high probability of another terrorist act in Moscow.

Fuck. Fuck them all. Fuck the child murdering scum, and fuck Putin for not giving a shit about the lives of the hostages.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Broomstick]

Over the past few years I have heard calls for "good Muslims" or "true Muslims" or "peace-loving Muslims" to condemn the actions of the terrorists who claim to be Muslim. Well, here are some:

From Al-Jezeera http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/ ... D1A4F5.htm

Egypt's top Muslim cleric, Grand Shaikh Muhammad Sayid Tantawi, who described the siege as a "criminal act". "What is the guilt of those children? Why should they be responsible for your conflict with the government," Tantawi said during a Friday sermon as he addressed the hostage-takers. "You are taking Islam as cover and it is a deceptive cover, those who carry out the kidnappings are criminals, not Muslims," he said.

Egyptian President Husni Mubarak expressed his "sympathy with the Russian people".

Lebanese President Emile Lahud in a cable to Russian President Vladimir Putin condemned the "tragic events".

Kuwait's Prime Minister Sabah al-Ahmad Al Sabah expressed his "great regret for the victims of this terrorist operation," which he said "goes against all human values and threatens the lives of innocent civilians".

Jordan "condemns such acts, especially the kidnapping of civilians and to scare them in such a heinous way, even more, when most are children".

"Any cause cannot be achieved by such criminal means."

Joining the chorus of condemnation was Iran, which described the siege as "grossly inhuman".

Why quote al-Jazeera? Why not? If the voices on al-Jazeera speak only condemnation then you know these guys are shitheads and do not represent Islam. I mean, you can hardly call al-Jazeera a tool of the west!

Guys - does it seem to anyone else that the 'emergency vehicle' may have been full of spec ops? From what I've read, its arrival triggered the explosions, gun battles, etc. So maybe that was Russias move?

No, I don't think that's what happened. Several sources have stated that all hell broke loose when a group of children made a dash for freedom and the terrorists started shooting them in the back to keep them from escaping (yes, we knew these were Bad People). Fire was returned - some say by soldiers, some say by locals - to drive the terrorists away from the windows they were firing on the children from. Several survivors also state that one of the "black widows" blew up - either accidently or delibrately no one is sure - and that was the first explosion.

Personally, I think it was a hair-trigger situation, a powder keg just waiting for a spark. Anyone who thought this would end without loss of life was only fooling themself. People who take children hostage, shoot children in the back, shoot parents in front of children, shoot children in front of parents, and deprieve people of water for days at a time are not going to be nice or reasonable about anything. They aren't intending to survive the experience themselves, and have have no incentive to keep anyone alive. The intention was to cause fear, terror, horror, and grief, then to kill as many people as possible before killing themselves.

There are reports that some of the terrorists have been captured alive. Good. Let's see how much information the Russians can extract from them before they die.

[Sea Skimmer]

The majority of Chechnya is already under Russian control. Even the Kremlin favorite won in the recently held elections. The problem is the rebels hiding out in the hills and mountains. They've been trying to wipe them out for some time now, but the terrain is definately in the rebels favour.

Even if they depopulated the civilian centres, you'd still have the rebels in the hills. And it's hard to kill 'em if you can't find 'em.

That's where the application for nuclear warheads and nerve gas comes in.

[MKSheppard]

and fuck Putin for not giving a shit about the lives of the hostages.

To be fair to Vlad The Impaler, those children were as good as dead the
moment the terrorists chose to begin a long siege, and refused all water. The holdoff had been going on for three days, and your body
can only go without water for three days at best before you start dying.

[Broomstick]

Gazeta.ru is somewaht slow in translating its articles, so I'll just summarize the new info, and you'll have to wait for the English articles to come out.

-The FSB was planning the raid all along. The negotiations were a diversion. Nobody answerd their demands. Or even picked up the phone when they called.

Is this really a surprise? What were the Russians to do? This situation had no peaceful end. Bloodshed, heavy bloodshed, was inevitable.

You do NOT negotiate with terrorists. You do not yield on iota to their demands You kill them like the rabid dogs they are. If you can save hostages along the way that's all to the good, however, once a situation like this is under way people will die.

- The terrorists forced the hostages to hang bags of explosives from the ceiling. One of these bags fell down, causing the explosion.

Haven't heard that before

- The death toll is likely to go over 300.

Of course - there is supposedly 200 dead already, and close to 100 in critical condition. It is unlikely that all those in the hospital will survive. I expect they will be finding dead bodies in the school for days.

-The terrorists tried to kill the hostages by throwing grenades into their midst.

I'll say this much - these terrorists are consistent. Consistently horrible.

-There were no medical aid stations set up for the hostages, and almost no ambulances at the area. The hostages ahd to be driven to the hospital in the residents' cars.

With terrorists firing at people within range near the school, and threatening to kill hostages frequently, how would you propose setting up "medical aid stations" without tipping your hand you were about to attack, and while protecting the medics?

A fire fight is not the place to bandage the wounds of victims - use of residents cars to transport people to safety and hospitals is not a bad option. It may not have been the best of all possible worlds, but with the situation going to hell and a sudden need to improvise it strikes me as a very practical solution.

We're talking about a situation where half-naked, bleeding children were running from explosions and gunfire to huddle behind military vehicles and gulp water as fast as soldiers could hand it out - never mind the bullets still whizzing by. Frankly, I thought those children very brave (bravery, to me, is doing what is necessary despite being afraid) and resourceful.

-MChS planes have only now arrived in Baslan

What's a "MChS plane"?

-The terrorists barricaded themselves in the gym, using hostages as human shileds. It has taken over 8 hours to defeat them. Most of the hostages in the gym were killed.

>sigh<

I expected as much.

-The terrorist caught by the crowd was not beaten to death.

I could almost say... "what a shame he wasn't", except if he can be made to talk he is more valuable alive than dead. For awhile.

-The FSB states that there is a high probability of another terrorist act in Moscow.

Uh.. no shit?

Reality check - there's a high problability of another terrorist attack in ANY major population center ANYWHERE in the world.

and fuck Putin for not giving a shit about the lives of the hostages.

And, um, how exactly is Putin responsible for anyone's death here?

Unless you can state how he could have taken action to result in fewer deaths I'd say you were out of line. Putin may have many flaws and he may have done evil things, but he is in no way responsible for the death of anyone in Beslan this week. Lay the blame where it belongs - with the terrorists. This blood is solely on their hands.

Folks, sometimes there is no good answer. This is one of those situations. This is 9/11 for Russia.

[Broomstick]

and fuck Putin for not giving a shit about the lives of the hostages.

To be fair to Vlad The Impaler, those children were as good as dead the
moment the terrorists chose to begin a long siege, and refused all water. The holdoff had been going on for three days, and your body
can only go without water for three days at best before you start dying.

Indeed - there are reports the children were drinking their own urine to ease their thirst.

Those terrorists had no intention of letting anyone leave that building alive.

[Master of Ossus]

and fuck Putin for not giving a shit about the lives of the hostages.

To be fair to Vlad The Impaler, those children were as good as dead the
moment the terrorists chose to begin a long siege, and refused all water. The holdoff had been going on for three days, and your body
can only go without water for three days at best before you start dying.

That still doesn't excuse the fact that he didn't have ambulances on-scene (if that's true). Russia needed to have medical facilities ready to handle massive casualties. They had three days to get such facilities set up, and they didn't do it. That's unacceptable.

This attack represents an intolerable escalation. I will now support Russia if it uses chemical weapons to root out the fucking terrorists of Chechnya.

[frigidmagi]

Putin was most likey worried about the lives of future hostages. To bend to terrorist now is to invite more to come in the future.

If he was worried about anything other than killing the enemy. The man is colder than glacier ice.

[MKSheppard]

That still doesn't excuse the fact that he didn't have ambulances on-scene (if that's true). Russia needed to have medical facilities ready to handle massive casualties. They had three days to get such facilities set up, and they didn't do it. That's unacceptable.

This is North Ossettia, not exactly one of the most richest regions of the
Rodinu. And besides, I think the Army was on scene setting up thousands
of stretchers in makeshift medical stations.

[Vympel]

*sigh*

Of all the shit to wake up to (I was out all last night and into the morning).

[Master of Ossus]

Putin was most likey worried about the lives of future hostages. To bend to terrorist now is to invite more to come in the future.

I agree that he should not have acceeded to the terrorist's demands, but that doesn't excuse him for not having trauma centers ready.

[HemlockGrey]

That's where the application for nuclear warheads and nerve gas comes in.

Right, because if you can't find the terrorists, we ought to simply slaughter everyone in the general area. That certainly won't cause more terrorism.

How the hell are the Russians going to deal with it? How they can escalate it even further? Simply mass-execute the Checheynans? "Getting tough" sounds nice, but when "getting tough" involves indiscriminate destruction it simply makes the problem work. Nerve gas and nuclear warheads won't solve anything.

[HemlockGrey]

That should be "make the problem worse"

[Master of Ossus]

This is North Ossettia, not exactly one of the most richest regions of the
Rodinu.

So?

And besides, I think the Army was on scene setting up thousands
of stretchers in makeshift medical stations.

If that's true, then it would go a long ways in my mind towards vindicating the Russian government. However, I would expect that two days should be more than enough time to set up trauma centers and such in the immediate vicinity to prepare for such an eventuality, remote though the region may be.